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Chat Area => General Chat => Offense => Topic started by: Old Meister on January 15, 2009, 09:46:29 PM
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Nobody uses them at the top level but I still think they are an effective play. If you have a dominant fakey push and a pin pull, well the rest is left to imagination,,
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Nobody uses them at the top level but I still think they are an effective play. If you have a dominant fakey push and a pin pull, well the rest is left to imagination,,
I still see the heelshot fake into a push, and a lot more often, that just seems naturally to square off, because of the 3x-4x longer brush on the ball during the backswing from the frontpointed position, adding more friction on the side of the ball, creating more clockwise sidespin, enough to turn a natural hard slight spray push into a pounding long square push. I guess the fake heelshot into a pull is less natural and I more often see a standard quickset palmroll pullside from the middle, using a return or brushing motion to square off the ball instead. And that variation's very effective, especially with a lot of snakers who decide to quickset a palmroll pullside while faking or "selling" their move to get into rollover position.
Perhaps the backpin fakey pull could be as natural as the heelshot fakey push, but I guess a lot more backpin players just naturally go pullside with a standard brushup firing motion, even way way beyond deadbar. That natural deadbar rightside pullside with the natural return motion into a brush, while firing, just seems so much simpler from the backpin, anyway.
I also still see a lot of transfers from the middle (32 man) heelshot set, back & forth, to either outside player (31 or 33) and then quickly turning it into a slice or angle shot from either outside player figure, and usually with a palmroll shot. Or a quick dink from the outside into the corners. It seems to be just a variation on a 3player tic tac on the 3bar, culminating in a slice palmroll from either the 31 or 33. In comparison, I don't think I've ever seen a backpin from the center transferred repeatedly to either outside (31 or 33) player and then shot from there, with wrist or with a palmroll.
The main advantage of the heelshot, or frontpinned, ball shots, of course, seem to come from the natural ability to roll off the frontpin or heelshot at a 45 deg angle and shoot a square or high angle palmroll quickset. With the backpins, more effort and rhythm is needed to get into any desired firing position, plus the longer distance to the goalmouth, of course. One major example is the straight or quickset. Any decent series can move the ball in a pin, but only the heelshot ones allow one to leave the ball to stop, come off the heelshot pin, and almost immediately strike the ball, square on, or at any angle. This seems nearly impossible to easily do quickly enough, when using a moving backpin series. One just needs to move the ball on the heelshot, leave the ball alone to stop at any position and come off and instantly wrist flick or palmroll the ball. This is just so problematic when trying to come from a backpin series.
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I do the middle set to the outside man, but usually just as a crowd pleaser, most times it is just as effective to just go push side long with out transfering men.
I do a shot that is a reverse pull, but have changed it recently with a lot of success to bring it back to hit the middle. A lot of defenses seem to scatter to the corners and thus leave the middle at the slightest fake.
For some reason I have lost my reverse push shot from the backpin but I have put very little practice time on my 3 rod and have been mainly working on the five as I have incorporated the brush pass series moving from the wall chip up series and this took a lot of practice time.
For my pack pin shots go to youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/pinalyzer
Ignore the daughter cheerleading videos...
Pinalyzer
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I have not seen a fast back pin and I shoot a ok one but no one around here shoots one that I have seen with speed that leaves ya talking about it how are your shots speed wise ? mine is less than fast
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I would have responded back sooner but I wanted to try to video my "stuff" on back pins but it was not to be. So until I get it worked out I'm happy that you guys responded. I watched Pinalyzer's video, good stuff! and I was hoping Bbtuna would respond as I know he uses back pins also. I think it is a blast to go with this sequence, mixing the reversal push and pull(though harder yet more effective) with straight pin pulls and pin pushes to compliment the reversals. Just when you got the goalie looking back and forth at those you can throw in a side kick angle on either side or a bump kick either way. Then just to throw the whole thing into complete chaos you can throw in a 3 man tic tac angling in from what ever side you want. Steve, if you want it faster you have to let it all hang out with alot of pressure and contact on a very fast rock and make it go BOOM! Works for me,,
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OM,
that can generate some decent power into the goal but what you described will not give you good lateral speed
the challenge with a back pin is being able to generate lateral speed without rocking in the oposite direction first - it can be done...you should be able to get the same lateral speed you can on your best standard pull but I am betting for those of you who don't shoot this shot all the time, you will find this nearly impossible...but again, it can be done
pressure down on the rod engages muscles that slow the lateral motion...test what I am saying
put a ball in a back pin at the big dot and stay totally still - try first pressing down hard and trying to rip it and then try the same things as relaxed as possible...set up a regular pull and do the same thing and compare the motions, muscles, and issues involved with generating lateral speed with out the head start of a rock in the opposite direction (when I say rock it could be a large rock like Pinalizer is showing in his videos or the short rock like is used in most rollers)
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What you may be true. I know a relaxed approach without opposing muscles makes for a a lightening fast shot but to say that the shot is slow makes me want to say "RIP IT!" and go from there. For me this sequence is all about being dominating and imposing. To hold back diminishes the desired over-reaction from the goalie. I want him as nervous as can be and react to every fake I throw at him and he better or it will be a one move shot.
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I know my grip has to feel perfect no slipping on the grip at all then my results are great..
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i didn't say it was slow, what I said was that one of the biggest challenges for a backpin is generating LATERAL speed and the death grip you described may produce power into the gaol but is not good at dealing with the lateral speed issues
all shots are better if they are fast and indimidating but most people shooting the backpin can not blow people away with their Billy Pappas lateral speed but rather rely on fakes and movement to score
if Billy sat still on his roller he could burn a bunch of people to the corners just by speed alone
i bet money, on a reasonable defense, you could not do that with a backpin - the reason isn't because i think you are slow but rather because the backpin has its challenges generating lateral speed...as I said, not impossible, just difficult compared to set shots and front pins all things being equal
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Charles I did notice that the Warrior must have been harder to keep lateral speed on. It had been years (decades, lol) since I had to block backpins, but it seemed to come back to me pretty easy. I figure my blocking percentage would have dropped a bit if we had been on a Tornado, because you had the mechanics down pat. It was a pleasure meeting you and playing you.
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i didn't say it was slow, what I said was that one of the biggest challenges for a backpin is generating LATERAL speed and the death grip you described may produce power into the gaol but is not good at dealing with the lateral speed issues.
Please clarify that you're talking about lateral speed on wrist or closed hand backpin shots, right? Because we have 2-3 backpin shooters here, who use the palmroll and can go with the middle 3figure from a backpinned middle set on the away side of the big dot, and crush the deadbar or 7, as fast as a pull shot. And we have another guy, GB, who can rattle off unbelievably fast pullkick backpins from an inch off the far wall to a deadbar. Standstill, but often a dribbling set with the far 3figure. And he can do even more frightening backpins from the nets. He loves going outside figure to the other, blasting really really quickly from the big dot.
Your descriptions are confusing, because there IS NO PROBLEM WITH LATERAL SPEED, on TS, Dynamo, and SEVERAL TORNADO MODELS, with an open hand palmroll backpin. Many busted 3figures along the way, but still no lateral speed problem. Once a player figures out how to "topkick" a roll from the other figure, the acceleration is drastic after the first viewable inch of lateral travel. The trick to the release is maximum compression on the top of the ball before firing, with almost visible flexing of the table surface and/or playing figure, and the touch to release at the start of the shot, which rolls the ball forward enough to prevent stubbing. And the best backpin shooters from my TS days, even the wrist or closed hand shooters, also used max pressure right before a very very quick release of pressure at the exact moment on the final yank before the shot.
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Thanks Foozkillah, you explained it a lot better than I could.
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i wrote a reply on this yesterday but it wouldn't post so I saved it but that is at home but I will answer
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To be fair, I agree with the "death grip" analogy being counterproductive. But that is not what I said. And in referrence to being slow, that was directed towards Steve's observations and the "Rip it" and "Let it all hang out" comments are just that. Go for it with everything you got as it is a killer shot. Doubt just makes for half-hearted attempts. Limp wrists do not apply,,,,. So Bbtuna, we probably are not at odds on the execution of this shot sequence. You obviously have it working for you and have a mindset in how that happens. Share it and good on you for it. But at least try to understand that there are others that use this shot sequence effectively and we have our own take on it. I do mostly shoot it with a closed hand, with pressure, but not a "death grip". And should these stiff old wrists respond, I leave the goalie in na na land.
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OM,
we are good...here are my thoughts on "pressure"
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yea, a person can sit on the far side of the big dot and yank an explosive opened handed backpin to the long hole and you may do that from pressure and release...meaning you are winding up, using pressure, and then letting go in which case you free up those muscels I am talking about but with the exception of our backpin shooting friend in MI, there isn't anyone who can do that both ways and they can't do it from at or inside the big dot
be that as it may, I was referring to the wrist version of the shot anyway...if you shoot opened handed you give up a lot of the unique control that the backpin offers...I have heard of backpin shooters and was taught by Jevat Meha originally and was around Petros (sp) in chicago in my TS days but I have never seen one that can do everything I can do off the middle man (I can do the kicks and such but they aren't a regular part of my offense although I will use the pull kick once a match maybe and the pushkick once in a while)
on TS I was unraceable especially on the push side but age and a different table have taken that away
but, a smooth, musceless take off, no pressure or grip, was key then and still remains key today to maximizing the back pin lateral speed
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I hear the stories of great backpins but I have never seen them...my backpin is by far better than Jevat or Petros the only 2 I have known up close - it isn't saying much probably but I can't tell you how many people have told me they have never seen a better one including some who have seen at least one of the ones I know of that is still active in the game today - I have converted many people into believers that this is a for real shot and have had a pro totally enthralled with the possibilities when they saw how accurate you can go short (straight and brush backs in both directions)
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I know you all aren't arguing its potential value (which is a change, so thanks) but rather the best way to generate lateral speed and the issues involved with doing so
I only say this other stuff to try and validate in some small way that I know what I am talking about
the lateral speed on a backpin can be very deceptive because it can easily generate so much power into the goal (wrist or open-hand) and no one shoots a back pin from a stand still and very seldom is the backpin shot without at least a short throw in the opposite direction...with this movement and the power into the goal, it can sometimes appear you are getting good lateral speed and if the rock in the opposite direction is just right you can generate some pretty good lateral speed but that is sooooo much different than from a stand still where you see for real all the lateral speed
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also, if you go from a SS you will find the short part of the shot much more difficult as well
anyway, if you don't agree and you think you can do it with pressure then have at it and show me wrong but until I see someone who can do that from a SS, closed handed, from the big dot or inside the big dot then I will keep with what I know to be PROVEN in my own experience
bbt
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Bbtuna, you could basically say the same for roll-overs, lateral speed from a dead start vs rocking. It's what makes the shot effective(rocking) in that you have all the options to work off from. A static start is a nice skill to have I suppose for that little surprise shot once in a while but a rocking start straight backpin pull or backpin push as the alternative to a reversal backpin pull or push seems more effective coupled with a bump kick either direction and the side kicks(as I like to call them), well it seems you can drive a goalie crazy if you're on.
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big difference between the two...there are a number of rollover shooters who very sucessfully shoot a SS snake, I play with one...it is an approach option but that is NOT true of the backpin
whole different set of muscels engaged pre-shot in these two shots which is my point
no other shot on the table engages the grip muscle before shooting like the backpin does
I am sure some may do better than me, but I challenge you to try and shoot a backpin from a SS...total SS, no rock in opposite direction to start - so, first motiion is to the side you are shooting...do about 50 of these each direction
start on the big dot, use closed hand, shoot 50 one finger pulls and 50 1 finger pushes
when you are done, come back and talk with me about this subject some more
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Alright, did it, pretty cool! I'm going to use that. That has to be a heart breaker for the goalie. At first it wanted to spray a little but after I tightened up on the move a little it was nice and compact. It reminds me of something I was playing with earlier where I was centering the ball just slightly behind the big dot and hovering over it without touching it, then brushing it for the mini-push or mini-pull. I also did a tight tic tac from there and just for fun a helicopter, picking it up and hooking it in. Kinda tough on Tornado though but fun. I think I insulted one of the better players in our area when I tried it out on him. I did score with it but not enough to win. But this SS pin push really works nice. I wonder how hard a back angle tweener would be, ever try it?
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oh no not this again....
haha, I kid I kid...
I got to play against Tuna at MO state and he does shoot the shot very accurately and is able to go both ways well.
The only other person I have seen shoot the shot better was a guy from Wisconsin. I have no idea what his name is but his shot was almost as fast lateral as a snake shot, so it made it very difficult to race. He was able to go dead on both sides and also had a nice straight option. Wish I knew his name...
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oh no not this again....
haha, I kid I kid...
I got to play against Tuna at MO state and he does shoot the shot very accurately and is able to go both ways well.
The only other person I have seen shoot the shot better was a guy from Wisconsin. I have no idea what his name is but his shot was almost as fast lateral as a snake shot, so it made it very difficult to race. He was able to go dead on both sides and also had a nice straight option. Wish I knew his name...
Heheheh... Must be something in the milk and cheese from that state! :) Sure ain't the water!
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there are a number of rollover shooters who very sucessfully shoot a SS snake
:o :o :o :o :o
Being German, that's a very scary thing to read for me. Gruesome associations are invading my mind; do you also have Panzer Pull Shots and NSDAP backpins?
_
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Hey, I was born and raised in Wisconsin, way up in the frozen hinterlands. You didn't want to lose or it meant you might have to go out in the cold as there were so many quarters on the table that you might not get another chance to play. And who drank water? That was the beer state, Milwaukee Brewers,,,,
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ok every shot a rollover can hit so can a backpinI use one more shot from it a bank it works great on warrior try it you will like it
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Ah Steve, a man after my own heart. Back pin banks, nasty nasty play,,,,
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8) 8) 8)
I still do backpin banks from all three players on the 3bar. Tons of fun! expecially the long long crossover bank from either end player to the far or near wall. I shoot backpins from the middle or 32 player from a SS, just as I do the rollover, although I do the rocking motion first to make sure the ball is rolling right with pin and the pressure. And the instant palmroll "cut" shot from either end players is another pleaser.
I've seen many a snaker do a hard, a slow, or even a narrow rocking motion, stop with a loud tap and basically wait .5 to 2 seconds before shooting from a standstill. Just like the backpinners used to do in the TS days. Except the snake has the advantage of an instant straight after the tap, just as does a Euro heelshot pin. But the banks from the backpin are just so much more fun.
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@foozkillah
Video!
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You're killing me Fooskilla >:(, I gave up on trying banks up front on the Tornado table. I loved them on TS, all three men both directions but I can't seem to even get the close ones on Tornado. I do do a mean close man pull cut with an openhanded backpin though. It's a good option to the pushkick of the backpin.
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You need a loose wrist to shoot a smooth shot and get the toss to have any speed what I mean is relax those muscles and think you should be able to score a very high % the short holes you need to make sure that the ball is sitting forward a little more to hit them also the straight defenders will always test you to see if you can hit it don`t hesitate to go for it even if they block it you will have just established that you can hit it. I always shoot the side that gives my the dead man I know I can hit it . then you can shoot just inside his man ..there are lots of options off the back pin take your time pic your hole , falling for the defender that will bait you is the only way to be stoped Now you should have all the info you need ..
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You're killing me Fooskilla >:(, I gave up on trying banks up front on the Tornado table. I loved them on TS, all three men both directions but I can't seem to even get the close ones on Tornado. I do do a mean close man pull cut with an openhanded backpin though. It's a good option to the pushkick of the backpin.
The hardest 3bar bank, the long crossover from the edge player figure, is also usually the last defended shot. For one thing, the setup looks just like you're trying a straight-in angle or "cut" shot into the nearest corner or between the defenders. It was actually pretty easy to make consistent. After months of trial and error, I figured out that you had to pin the ball pretty much on the top, rock it and just stop at the right position and palmroll it from there. Basically you bring it with the rock to the contact position and just palmroll in place back to that spot. Really weirdly consistent. Mixing up the superlong backpin bank with that straight can really ruin the goalkeeper's day. ;D
I rarely ever tested a wrist shot bank on that long bank, but I do the instant wrist bank off the nearest wall on both sides, too. The near wall quickie banks seem to have a lot more margin for error.. prolly because there's less distance to the near corner. 1/3 to 1/4 as long... so angle errors arent' magnified 3-4 times.
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Bbtuna, I did not mean to be disrespectful to you. I actually did like the static back pin shots. No, I didn't use a bunch of pressure to do them so you were right in what you were saying. I look at the reaction time to a shot to determine whether it would be effective or not and, of course, the delivery of the shot has a lot to do with that. By sitting on it and doing a very simple, smooth execution with the minimal movement needed to carry out the shot, it seems like it would be a real effective style of play. It seems that those shots would certainly open up the effectiveness of the reversal of both directions which would be started with the same move. Control and timing is everything,,,. I do respect what you say and hope you don't think otherwise.
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Old Deutscher,
This might not hold or be necessary at your area's locals, but I can't believe that anyone currently playing against the pulls and rollers in locals, superlocals, regionals and on tour would use a backpin series without the bank and quickset palmroll options. To use it effectively as a main series, like I occassionally do and as do a couple other players (all with IFP and USTSA tour experience) in our area in SoFlorida, the variety of the options has to be used.
So although it is definitely harder because the contact points on the ball and the followthrough geometries from a backpin bank on the 3bar are very different from TS browns or blues, it has to be included. The backpin requires more preparation when rocked, although the SS certainly improves those.. the shot is physically farther from the goal which can only help the defender, and there is NO INSTANT STRAIGHT, because it's physically impossible.
But the ability to do quickset nearwall banks, very reliable cut shots from the 33 or 31 players, moving transition into a reverse pull or push, and yes, instant bankshots from in front of the goal, or middle smallbox area are vital additions to making the shot complete and deadly. That is the only way I would recommend anyone utilize a wrist or openhand palmroll backpin series. The percentages just kill you whenever you try to utilize the ole "TS" style of a rocking set into a pull, push or angle brush split, against a decent oldschool pull or a non-noob's rollover.
The NO INSTANT STRAIGHT AVAILABLE is the major weakness of the backpin, and prolly, IMHO, why it has fallen into disuse. By nature, the standard rocking backpin series is a playful offense, inviting a good defender to not be wrongstepped or hoodwinked into an opening. It's definitely more honorable, like daring an opponent in a bar to "put up their dukes" and fight. By comparison, a pull shot is like stabbing the opponent with a large kitchen knife after polite introductions, and a good rollover is like picking up a chair and going Springer, whaling on the opponent while he's talking to someone else.
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OM,
thanks, I appreciate your comments...we are good
killa
name the shot you can do an "instant" straight on...last I heard, you have to flip a front toe 359 degrees to hit a straight...with a pull or push straight you need to at the very least lift your man and come in front of the ball enough to hit it straight...neither of these are "instant" - I think you may want to redefine terms because in the length of time it takes these other shots to execute I can shoot the hole you leave straight infront of my man if you are defending my backpin
the straight on the backpin is basically a split and you won't defend me long giving me a split unless you are mentally slow or stubborn
also, you do NOT need to use kicks or banks for the BP to be effective
and finally, the idea that because the ball is further from the goal that it is slower to the back of the goal is a myth...the benefit of the distance the ball is from the goal is neutralized by the height of the backswing...so, even though a Euro front pin starts with the ball several inches in front of the starting BP position, the backswing on the man goes quite far back on the vast majority I have seen...a BP done right has almost no backswing so in pure terms, a BP shooter will strike the ball before a front toe shooter all things being equal
and the position of the ball provides many additional options and offers accuracy with brush backs that I have never seen achieved even my Rico on the front pin
you act like you are a current expert on a backpin but when you say things like this it tells me you don't know very much...these are basic truths to the BP
the 3 most common arguements against a BP
1. Can't shoot straight
2. Slow lateral speed
3. Ball is further away from the goal than other shots
now I will add a forth,
4. You need to use kicks and banks to make a BP effective
suit youself if this is what you believe but I have worked at this now in two foosball lives and on 3 different tables and if I had a student who was young and had the potential to be Billy/Tony/Rob/Ryan great and they dedicated themselves to the BP, all these would be finally and permanently put to rest
in the mean time, I will give you my personal and professional evaluation and it can be summed up in one word for each of these 4 points..."BullS&it!"
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Hey can a stranger butt-in ?
Maybe we can define a "straight" as : no lateral movement of the ball required, in oder to move it forward into the goal :)
Sure, in any other shot ... pull, front-pin, etc ... the man has to move to hit a "straight". Sometimes, most-times, the man must move laterally (but not in a rollover of course) to hit the straight. So, in my humble opinion, there is a distinction for the backpin.
Not saying the backpin series isn't effective, though ... i used it quite successfully in the late 70's TS era !
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wolf,
NP..the backpin can not shoot the hole in which the pinned ball sits in without first moving the ball but my point is, the BP can still hit that hole but I will grant a movement has to take place first...but this is true in the case of ALL straights, in the case of the BP, the movement includes moving the ball, in the case of all other shots it is movement of the man apart from the ball - those shots can not hit the ball straight without first moving their man
so, it becomes an arguement of symantics not reality...call it what you will, leave the hole over the ball on a back pin and I will score it in that hole a lot...call it a split or a straight, doesn't matter to me if it makes you (or anyone) more comfortable but the bottom line is, the hole people call a straight on a BP can be hit
you can not hit that hole without moving but no other shot can hit their straight hole without moving either...I move the ball when i shoot it, they do not...no big deal, I still hit the hole so I can for sure shoot straight...
I challenge anyone who would like to block me to leave that hole "knowing I can not hit it" and watch how quickly they change their mind about that or how often I score it
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i can dig it :)
In my view, the whole concept of a "straight" has less meaning for a pin series than a pull shot anyway. The distinction being, that for a pull shot the "set-up" is stationary ... the ball isn't moving in the set-up. But in a pin series (front, back, rollover), the ball is typically in constant lateral motion, so the idea of a "straight" loses a lot of its meaning. If the ball is in constant lateral motion during the set-up, and the defenders are constantly moving laterally in moving-zone defense, what does a "straight" mean anyway ... know what I mean?
And that's what probably makes the "no straight" from a back-pin almost a moot point, in my opinion.
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yea, we are on the same path with that
if a person wants to call the open hole in front of a backpin a straight then we can safely say it can be hit...if they don't like that and want to call that space a split then we can say the split can be hit
it is as you describe a moving hole so it isn't straight in the way we think of a set shot straight
but in all fairness, although I don't think it is a good enough definition, when people say "straight" they mean the ball struck straight ahead sitting in a stationary position with no diviation or movement of the ball to the right or left first and the movement of the man is not important
I get this and using this definition the BP can not hit a straight but as I said before and have said in the past, if you leave that hole against me, you will start to change your definition
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As Ww said, there is constant lateral motion but what I really like is the ability to change the tempo and center of that motion at will. It truly can be a nasty series. If I try to mirror those same shots off a frontpin I'd be more likely to do palm shots but the back pin I do close handed(wrist) as it seems so much faster, not so much wind up on the stoke. In the TS days I'd dance back and forth between front and back pins with some in-line dancing as well to "free up" a shot. With today's direction of a more contolable ball I hope that that style will become workable for me again.
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BBT,
I never argued that the BP wasn't a nasty series. But the BP series, so dependent on "touch" and table, ball and player toe conditions, takes way way too much commitment to practice and concentration in comparison to shots that have a simple straight. And even getting a good long or brush to a split is harder than learning a pull, push, or the natural release points to the "post" on a rollover or Euro. You highlighted a major difficulty of the shot yourself... the no-ball-motion STRAIGHT, using a dribbling shuffle or to-side-and-back in a BP is an ADVANCED option! It's so simple and easy to teach with a pull, push or rollover! So YOU can shoot it, but how much harder is it than a pull or rollover shot's natural straight?
And yes, I was using BPs on Deutsche Meisters and other tables with "block" square toes on really crappy white plastic balls from the mid 70s. Nice and fun to show off your skill levels with, but even for rookie or amateur level play, it breaks down too often when the game's on the line. And it's no fun to get overwhelmed shot for shot by even rookies using a pull in the 70s 80s or using a rollover in the 90s and nowadays. I use and show noobs the 3bar banks, to make it fun! Because I know they'll end up using a rollover or even a pull or push for their main series, using the least amount of time to get up to speed. But at least they'll have a fun 3rd or 4th option to throw in when using a BP. And I seriously suspect any supposed BP expert who have difficulty with 3bar banks, even on a Tornado. Much as I suspect pull or push kickers with no dink option, no matter how fast or loud their main shot.
Tens of thousands of players over the past 3 decades or more weren't stupid. Hundreds of thousands of games in locals, regionals and majors have not shown many BP shooters able to dominate, at all levels.. If they did, there would be many more BP shooters as the balls, surfaces and player toes got better and better. Money and results talk and "BullSh&t" BP straights walk.
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killa,
there is a big difference between how effective a BP series can be and how hard it is to learn
there is NO doubt it is hard to learn, probably the hardest shot on the table and with the effectiveness of a pull and a rollover and the relative ease they are to learn, the likihood of the BP becoming a household shot, regardless of how dominant anyone ever becomes with it, is very very remote
look at Freddy...no one has ever dominated like he has and he certainly has "proven" the effectiveness of the Euro pin, without kicks, banks and the like, and yet not one person I know of in the US has taken up the shot up in over 10 years...the young up and comers are still doing rollers and pulls...Rollers and Pulls are just too effective and too easy to learn...the Euro to learn at Fred's level (or near because who after all is a freak like Fred?) is so hard no one will take the time to do it...instand gradification drives people today even in foosball
Europe is even picking up on the Roller and not the other way around even though those tables ar vastly and historically dominated by the Eruo Pin
pushkick and pullkick set shots are very hard to learn as primary shots as well and we never see new young super stars taking up those either because they are harder to learn (and in their case harder on the arm unlike a BP which is easy the arm)
we can argue until the cows come home on if the BP "could" be a dominant shot in the hands of enough committed people...I am certain, even with your obvious vast knowledge of the game (and I don't mean that sarcasticly) that I know way more about a BP than you do and I say without dinks, banks, and kicks a BP on Tornado, IS the best shot on the table and could be as dominant as any shot has ever been given enough people shooting it and some young bucks emerging who have it as the primary weapon
a small aside, I never said the straight was any kind of issue, I consider one of the easy points/shots of the BP...in real terms, it makes absolutely no difference to me that I can not just pound the ball straight without first moving it...it isn't necessary, I can score on you anyway if you leave it
however, this is all theory I suppose until someone "proves" it by dominating on tour with one but I think I understand the game nearly as well as you and I am totally convinced that it is the best shot on the table apart of the "extra" stuff
in the mean time, for those who use it for fun and show, it is a great toy but for the very few of us who have committed to it as a primary shot, we know the truth and I feel pretty certain that if we played together for a while you would agree with me even though I am 52 and certainly nearing the downside of my foosball life
I only wish I had stuck at it the first time around because I am certain the landscape would be different now but that ship has sailed...maybe someday, even with my limited foos life, I may be able to turn the tide of opinion...I still cling to that hope...we will see
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I dont think you can call the back-pin the "best shot" on the table. I realize your bias because you shoot it. But c'mon, if it was the absolute best shot wouldnt there be someone out there that would put in the time to learn it, perfect it, and win with it?
Reguardless,
I dont think that there is a "best shot" on any table. It isnt the shot the wins championships... it is the person shooting it.
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well, I know it appears I am biased because I shoot the shot but my opinion on the shot and the fact I shoot it aren't really related...i shoot it now because I started using it in my first foosball life and had so much memory in it when I came back I didn't want to start from scratch to learn a new shot
I thought it was good back then but I really hadn't formed "best" shot type of distinctions at the time...in those days a person could (and did) pick from a wider group of shots...i picked this because it was unique and I was trying to develop a unique (Tony Spree like) game
my opinion now is informed by a much greater understanding on mechanics of shots, starting position, options, capabilities, potential for speed, decptive capabilities, etc. My opinion is NOT based on how hard it is to learn, this doesn't figure in at any level...if it did, it wouldn't be anywhere near the top because as i said, it is very likely the hardest shot to learn
you are right when you say "it isn't the shot that wins championships...it is the person shooting" but that is not relavant to the conversation...I am not saying and have not suggested that there is some magic in the shot or that you could give it to a complete boob and they would easily win worlds
I am saying it is the best shot because of what can be done with it that can not be done with any other shot and given all things were equal...same player, same understanding, same skill, same depth Billy/Tony/Ryan/Rob Atha shooting BP's (totally matured like their rollers are) compared with Billy/Tony/Ryan/Rob Atha shooting rollers would change the foosball worlds opinion on the BP FOREVER
the kind of pin point precision and control you have with brushes/angles both directions, coupled with the easiest longest longs in the game, ball control, speed changes, direction changes...it is possible to hit every hole from every position from one end of the goal to the other, straight, angled, brushed, with or without fake, double fake, triple fake, pound fakes in place, or jump pound fakes and the reverse, same direction short either direction
it is mind blowing all that can be done...there is not other shot that even comes close...the euro is the closest but even that is very limited and not anywhere near as capable with pin point splits in shorter space than you ever imagined possible
all this can be done holding the ball the whole time available or can be done as a quick shot
and we aren't touching all the extreme stuff that can be done with relative ease and accuracy like tick tac kicks, dinks, banks, outside men slices, quick rolls into kicks, pulls, pushes, etc
no, it isn't even close...the great weakness of the shot is how long it takes to learn and having (at least for me) too many options but that goes back to the player's ability more than the shot itself
no, all things being equal, the backpin is the best shot on the table from the 3 rod in terms of what it can do compared to any other shot on the rod
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And should the direction of a more controllable ball continue, then you might begin to see BP's come into the spotlight more. The thing about Freddy using frontpins and nobody trying to copy him is that his game was developed on a table that supported front pin play. Just like Bb and Fk and myself, we all came from TS backgrounds and most likely had an effective BP game back in the day. You don't see too many young players try to learn the BP as Tornado play doesn't support it well. That is why it is good to have more than one type of table around to play on, it just broadens your horizons as far as style. I still think those Texans got tired of getting their arses kicked by the northerners so they came up with a table that wouldn't support the northerners style. OOOh, I probably started something with that ;D
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On the ITSF garlando back pins are super easy, I shot them from the back at the world cup a lot on that table and i saw some players shooting them from the 3. that table is really easy to score on anyway though because it is easy to get the ball moving fast, the men are small, and the nets are huge. Also it is now very snake friendly with the new rods.
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Oh yeah Will, from the back it's totally freestyle when you go with back pins, on a table that will let You! Mixing it up is where it's at and from in back you have so much room to move. I was playing these kids(20 somethings)in Portland, OR, and from back I did some little BP dance thing and turned a shot and the goalie's reaction was just precious. I just love this game,,, ;D. But not to butter my bread too much, I have to admit it is hard on Tornados to be solid on execution when using backpins. When it works it's wonderful but when it fails it's horrid. We play this game for pleasure. WE should do it as we deem it should be so as to project our own definition of the game. Be true to your own vision, don't get too down when you lose, come back with determination and inspiration. Anyone who puts a great part of themselves into this game has everyright to express themselves in any way they see fit. And we are all better for it. Bb asked me to try a static start from a back pin and to do a one move shot. By analyzing the move, the problem of the move and trying to arrive at a workable solution, well how good is that? Life is about that, a simple problem to be figured out. I once watched a young man trying to pluck a coin from an older man's palm. He would tense and strike and time and time again he would fail yet when the older man went to pluck the coin from the younger mans palm it seemed he hardly move fast at all but got it everytime. The difference was that the young man tensed, muscles oppposed the muscles need to carry out the task yet when he did move it seemed so very fast, but to no avail. Yet when the older man moved there was no tension, just a straight forword relaxed move and he seemed to simply pick up the coin. I think this is something Bb was hinting at about lateral movement. It doesn't have to BOOM to be fast. Oh here I go, rambling on about foos, I can't help it. And if you're reading thisd I imagine you can't either.
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OM, your talkin love of the game and for those of us who work at it with no reward except the game, the art, the friends...it gets in your blood
on the BP on Tornado, if we all played regularly, none of you would think there was any short coming on a Tornado with the BP, 3 bar or 2 bar
however, the Warrior does have just enough added control it might entice a few people to work through the beginner issues and take it up seriously - not super likely but it might happen...it will definitely be seen from the 2 bar more often but not as a primary series I am guessing and you will see people doing it in pick up stuff on the 3 bar along with tic tac stuff
I am not saying the BP on Tornado is easy, it isn't, but it can be done but Warrior adds just enough additional control to make it crazy fun for me cause if you learn to shot it on Tor, every table you are going to play apart from Tor is going to be easier
when i started back after 25 year layoff and started on Tornado from TS, I thought I would break my wrist before I got my stroke back but now that seems like another lifetime ago and I can do things with a BP I never dreamed of the first time around
the backpin is a great shot, lots of fun – it is without peer and is the ultimate shot
endlessly creative, physically demanding, a blend of brute force and surgical precision
it is
art, power, subtlety, and strategy rolled into one and the game of foosball has not yet seen what it (the game) can become but one day, hopefully in my lifetime, a force of nature will come shooting the backpin and this will change foosball
there is more to foosball than what has been discovered, there are other things, but the BP is for sure one of the untapped wonders
the moving pass series on the wall
the pull
the brush
the stick
far wall
the rollover
these are some of the defining things that have been discovered and changed the face of foosball as it makes it way through its first tournament generation
one day the backpin will be added to that list
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Well, I guess if you mean by "best shot" the shot with the most options, then you could be correct.
I guess my definition of "best shot" is the shot that has the higher scoring %. But then again, in order to determine the shot with the best scoring % you would have to take into account who is shooting. And like you said since there is nobody (big names ex. Spree, Pappas, Atha, Moore) that shoot the backpin, how are we to tell that someone shooting a backpin would have a higher scoring % than someone shooting a pull or snake?
I mean, any shot (pull, push, backpin, front pint, push kick, pull kick, snake) can get to any of the holes. Does it really matter "how" the ball gets there?
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Rios,
yes, that is what close to what I am saying...historically in the US there is no doubt the pull and the rollover are the winningest shots and so the "best" shots using the % criteria and unless I met someone young and very very aggressive and committed I would not recommend the BP because it is a ton of work to get right
however, i will disagree with the assement that all shots can do all the same shots...the inline shots for example, the pull, push, and both kicks, can not do reverses (reasonably) and can not do brushes...the position of the ball on a BP, which is behind the rod, and the fact that your man is in contact with the ball, allows you pin point precision and the capability to easily cut back or brush back in either direction...the longs are a given in all the shots but the inside game and ball control are not equal not even close...trying to do a cut back on a push or a pushkick at any hole along the goal mouth is problematic
another example, with a rollover, going short and cutting back with any kind of accuracy and consistency - as a matter of fact, I have watched many many hours of all the best rollover shooters and none of them employ this regularly because it just isn't reliable
same is true with the euro piin with Fred as an aception, he does a short pullside chip but it lacks the finesse and control of the BP and I have never seen him do it on the push side
on both of these shots, brushes are not possible due to the position of the ball
I think it is easy to prove mechanically that there is no doubt that the BP has superior capabilities but proving that these additional options, even in the hands of the best players, would make the BP the highest scoring % shot, all things being equal, is really just an unproven theory
all the same, I would bet on it but it is a safe bet since there is no way to prove it
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Youtube- Gummeson vs Gabriel-2008 Kentucky state- Gummeson wins with a back pin!
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a slow mis-hit angle back but a BP all the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmVNVMsLJDo
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True but did you notice the first shot shown? A back pin from the back that wasn't a mis-hit. Yep, give an old-schooler some grip on the ball and watchout for backpins ;D At the very end he admitted that he was trying to do shots that he hadn't used in 15 to 20 years.
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As I've always said, the greatest baseball pitchers and foosball shooters may have a monstrous money shot, but they also invariably have 2 or more secondary shots almost as scary. And the legendary ones actually have 2 or 3 money shots. The basketball forward that can drive and dunk imposingly, but can throw in 10-15footers from the lane all night, as well as hit the 3s on call, is definitely another example.
The BP, although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables, is still a dynamite option to bust out on a defender with its natural quickset from a pickup, its reverse or "unnatural" angles, to shooting completely different holes.
Because just like with gunfighters of the old west.. there will always be that individual or two that will just naturally outdraw ya, or shut out your main shot/s. The more weapons the better, and the complete alienness of the timing and shot selection of a BP makes it a great candidate.
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although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables
NO! no more than a roller or europin and on the primary tables in the US, Tornado and now Warrior, these are non factors...
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sportin the BP from goal like a vet...it is so natural to me I didn't even notice until you said that
people say Gummy has a good BP...I would like to see him shoot it on the 3 for a while and judge for myself what I think...maybe someday - Johnny Horton is supposed to have a good one too and given his crazy ball control skills I can see that but again would like to experience it personally
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although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables
NO! no more than a roller or europin and on the primary tables in the US, Tornado and now Warrior, these are non factors...
BBT,
I have to say that rollover shooters can set, from SS or a shake, standard shots to the same holes (typically the "posts") and practice these till the cows come home. True BP'ers have more a "jazz" like offense, another reason it is so nice to see and do. They can easily take up the whole length of the 3bar with thousands more options. That's why I say they have to take more concentration, and more touch. I've trained absolute klutzes to do a decent left-right-middle rollover. No problems... Won't work with a classic BP O.
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killa,
true about training people...people go blank trying to learn the BP but I have seen a bunch of people start on the roller now and they are just as awkward in the beginning
I hear you on using more of the goal and the "jazz" (which I like as a description) but we will just leave it there...hopefully we can play some day
have a great weekend all, FOOOSSSBALLL FRIDAY is here on Super Bowl weekend...go rock and play hard and of course
SHOOT THE BACK PIN
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Exactly like jazz. Improvisation is both the beauty and the deadliness of the BP. But I must also include the closed hand wrist frontpin or heelshot. And many of those Euro or world styles go back and forth between the heelpin and the BP.
I've taught hundreds of noobs over the years, but never really "taught" the backpin. To get a BP, or heelpin, series, I remember that the 1 in 10 or so who went for the pin series did it the same way jazz musicians and the best most elusive offensive basketball forwards have to do. They watched, then they went on the same very personal "adventure" of learning the feel of the ball, and had the nads to keep using it in play.. perfecting it in play. So those who saw it, tried it, and "got" it, were the minority.
Not even your animal spirit guide can teach you a workable BP or closedhand heelshot series. You have to live it. And a major disadvantage for attracting more proponents, and challenge, is that your best shots are the memorable ones against great and tough D. Same as you rarely ever saw MJ or Kobe or LeBron put up more than a thunderous dunk or simple jumpshot against a so-so defender or more. It's when the challenge is raised that the shot really comes into its own.
Motion offense with the ball attached has to be the highest level of offensive play, and really known only to those who've taken the BP or HS backroads. And even the great ones who have them will still have to use the mundane power and speed shots, to survive, to conserve concentration, and to be as fresh as possible when they meet that opponent who threatens to take them out of the money, or the championship. And they will pull it out in finals... or desperation moments.
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The Dif. between a BP and a Rollover is a BP can be shot at a slower speed and be efective and the rollover must be very fast or your toast.
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A rollover with a methodical medium speed rock that is simply extended on one end of the rock and the shot is smoothly executed without a hitch in the motion can be a very effective technique. Also a medium speed back angle "tweener' can give goalies fits. It's the delivery that makes the difference.
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I'll have to post on you tube here soon the "Anacondabackpin" for you guys...more for those who haven't seen a backpin shot the way I shoot it!!!! Any hole can be hit. Whether it's a brush/dink or a deadbar pull or a long push I think you'd be pretty surprised to see how fast and accurate I can be. Now I need to find a vid camera and a decent table to shoot on........Mr Steve is there still tourneys in Lansing???
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Speed is overrated when using the backpin. The multiple options from the pin should replace the "need for speed". With the pin pull, pin push, both reverses, banks, angles, and masse, that should be enough to keep the goalie guessing. Now, tables will dictate the effectiveness of any shot, but it's good to have a complete arsenal if one or the other doesn't work that day.
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The Dif. between a BP and a Rollover is a BP can be shot at a slower speed and be efective and the rollover must be very fast or your toast.
I have to disagree with your quick conclusion there about any typical BP and any typical Rollover/Snake. I would propose, instead, that, once the ball is securely pinned in initial firing position, the three major types of both the BP and the Rollover share very similar characteristics.
I have observed three basic types of both BP (mid 70s to 80s tour quality) and Rollover (90s through today). The most common one would be type (A) or the longer back & forth shuffle, then the second most common, type (B) or the standstill or very small wiggle set, and lastly the mixed and less common one, type (C) which is the walking dribble back and forth shot.
The most common type, the type (A) fastlongshuffle on the pin, whether BP OR Rollover, which can go rolling the ball under the pin from end to end of the middle 3bar's (#32man) foot, seems easiest to shoot 3/4 and long or even dead bar square shots with. The higher the skill level, the more the ball is rolled back & forth at the same pressure and is generally a rhythm or timing shot. The more quickly and smoothly the ball is rolled back & forth, the faster the ball can be released in rhythm and simply hit at the point desired. This type (A) shot, whether using a BP or a Rollover, seems the easiest to get into rhythm with, no matter how warmed up or cold the shooter is. By nature, feel for the ball increases. Best shutdown defense on both the BP and Rollover fastlongshuffles, of course, is a zone or post defense, which continuously defends against a timed shot that can hit even either extreme long, since it's for the most part a timing shot.
The second most common, type (B), or standstill/small wiggle shots, are also widely seen. There is no natural workup into a rhythm, so keeping the perfect pressure on the pinned ball and keeping the takeoff correct from a standstill or near standstill wiggle is harder. These shooters need more warmup, but can be just as deadly once they figure out the proper pressure and pitch or angle of take off, (also a factor when doing a palmroll push or pull off a pinned ball). The quickset into a hard spray from just past the big dot or at the 3/4 going to the long hole is one of the deadlier features of this shot, while the long long square or deadbar is a bit more problematic to control. A long square or deadbar from these standstill/wiggle BPs or Rollovers are as hard to do if not harder than with a palmroll frontpin. Usually the type (B) shooter will have a very very good pull or push side square or deadbar, but not both. Bait and Race D's usually work better against these BPs and Rollovers, because they are faster, but are usually not as superlong as those from the type (A) fastlongshuffle shooters. Type (B) BP and Rollover shooters are often trying to simply get around the outside 2bar or goalkeeper defender, just as one often does when shooting a standard pull, push or pushkick underrod shot (non-pinned). The best type (B) shooters also seem to have developed really really hard release or firing strokes, which of course minimize the spray from long-rolled balls.
Less common BPs and Rollovers are the type (C) dribble and wiggle shots, although some of the best seem to be of these type. These use the sometimes hard and loud dribble to walk the ball in front of the goal mouth, trying to find the nearest baited hole, or even working the zone or race D into pauses. These BP's and Rollovers, especially at the highest skill levels, make use of the walking dribble to get into rhythm, too, much as the type (A) fastlongshuffle shooters do on the pin. But the feature of an instant quickset, as seen with type (B) standstill or wiggle shooters for very very short sideways pitches is also available. This type of BP or Rollover shooter can walk until just inside or outside either the 2bar or goalkeeper player, stop or continue dribbling at will, and do an instant quickset into a hole a ballwidth or less over, just like the type (B) standstill shooters do, but of course from a much smaller lateral distance, which keeps the natural spraying tendency down versus the type (B) shooter going long but spraying more. More fakes, especially loud tapping ones, are also built-in to these BPs and Rollovers, and most of these type (C) dribble and wiggle shooters can always fall back on their basic BP or Rollover series, the type (A) or type (B) they probably began shooting pinned shots with. Defending the type (C) is usually best with observing which short quick shot holes they favor, baiting these holes and closing them. Although I have seen that some can go from a walking dribble with a BP or Rollover to very far over to the other side successfully (more than half goal length). But they usually cannot hit these as well as the baited holes, which are simple 1 inch longs or shorter, to either pull side or push side or splits.
I've observed these over the past 20 years for not just BPs and Rollovers, but guess which shot uses type (C) strategies with stops and starts, quick sets and crossover fakes? Why the Euro, of course... but I think for Euros, the type (C) dribble-wiggle is an even more common choice, seen in perhaps half if not more with most Euro shooters, at least at the pro or tournament levels I've seen.
BP purists should be rightfully proud of their skill levels, with the ball control to nicely hit picked holes in rhythm, negating the need for brute speed, but fastlongshuffle type (A) Rollover shooters exhibit the same accuracy and precision, and most non-Rollover shooters just don't realize why absolute squares and super 7 deadbars from these shuffling snakers OFTEN SEEM SO IMPOSSIBLY EASY. It's because they're not having to crank the ball sideways while maintaining control, and the ball is in motion already, just needing to be released in its final direction.. SAME AS A RELEASED LONG BALL ON A BP. And the roll once released can be plenty fast, not quite as fast as the type (B) standstill/wiggle lateral, but as fast as when you flick the top of the ball with your fingers to roll it, which can be as quick if not quicker than smacking or pushing/pulling the ball from the side. That can actually hurt your finger.. LOL!
Of course, in closing, one cannot emphasize enough that at the release or firing point, the good shooter still must have enough forward rollover or BP cranking speed, which would be the second consideration after the initial pitch or launch from whichever type (A), (B), or (C) BP or Rollover that the shooter is coming from. And at this point, speed to the hole is also helped when shooting from a Rollover or Euro front pin, being several inches closer to the goal at contact. But if the BP shooter is smooth enough and the D isn't zoning/posting D a shuffle, or the D is prone to too many pauses checking the shooter's motion, any decent firing speed is usually good enough, too. The BP longer swing, on the other hand, also means a longer time of contact with the fired ball, the same as with a normal pull, push, or kick shot.
Hope my 20 pesetas can illuminate the SIMILARITIES, not the DIFFERENCE of the various pin shots ... Or which one was superior or better. The most difference I can see is that closed hand Euro's, BP's, pulls, pushes, and kickshots are predominantly stroked shots, like batting for hits in baseball, or with irons in golf. While almost all open hand, palm rolled BP's, Rollovers, and Euro's are more like slap shots in hockey or swings for homers in baseball.
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Then why, you should ask, are there less BP's today in North America, if they can follow the same shooting principles successfully used by frontpin Rollovers and Snakes?
I believe this is because the shape of the back of the Tornado and even Warrior or Shelti or other like figured tables, lends itself to more lateral rolling pin control with frontpins, versus the front shape of the feet, which I know do not give the same feel or control for BP's of the older TS, Dynamo or other European table types.
This would prolly all go away and more BP's would be feasible if they made the feet front and back virtually symmetrical. I've actually experienced this... all you need is a stoner promoter or vending operator putting a replacement Tornado #32 man on backwards. Backpins I used to shoot on TS in the late 70s suddenly became intuitive again, and a couple of us were ACTUALLY SORRY when the table operator came back and put the man on correctly.
Thats another 10 pesetas...
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Heres 's what I say, I will do the best I can to make the back pin the most talked about shot on tour this year. What I add to the series of BP is the banks. O.M. will back me on this they are nasty. At Runaway Bay I shot them and couldn't miss. A lot of goalies were shaking there heads and I could feel their pain. When you add the banks to the BP it makes the BP mathamatically the shot to do. It makes the goal HUGE. See you in Atlanta
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Hello everybody, new to the board and am chomping on the bit to get in on this conversation.
I learned to play on some older German style tables, my favorite being an old Hurricane table. I developed on hell of a 3-man bank shot, forward towards the away wall. It started first as a pin bank, stationary ball, but developed into a timed kick on a moving ball. One hell of a shot that could be hit with either man. I got so good at it that I could hit it at will as my primary shot.
Then I moved to North Carolina and was introduced to Bonzini tables. After learning front-pin shots, I incorporated banks into the pin series and became quite successful. I did really well in two NC State tournaments, open semifinals, using only my bank shots. Then people started defending with a crossover defense, putting the two-man on the wall away from me. This disrupted my bank shots. So I started hitting the reverse bank shot toward me. I have found that I can bank far better, far faster, using a back-pin. I am trying to make it my primary set. I am learning to do the straights, reverses, etc, but on Bonzini, with the cork ball, you really have to pull the ball forward enough to keep from stubbing the toe. It can be done though, but I currently need a rather new ball. I've had much more success with the ITSF ball, but the redesign is suppose to be stickier which keeps me wondering if the new ball will work as well. I love the back pin. I need to develop some angles, cut backs. I was trying to smack the ball hard at an angle, but it seems that I need to develop a brush, unfortunately, I can't seem to learn a brush pass for my five-man so I wonder if I'll be able to do it on the three. If I could pass, I would gladly bring a back-pin to the tour.
As to the straight-shot. Can't be done, especially on Bonzini. With a slicker ball, a sweet masse might be possible, but it ain't going to happen. Too slow. I'm thinking a move-split will beat the spread defense taking advantage of the straight, but I've got a better option. With the French tables I'm trying a French walk, back and forth, even going from man to man, moving the defensive pocket. I guess that's just a fancier version of a simple reverse though.
The main reason I started learning the straights on the backpin are to keep the two-man from switching sides when I choose to bank. Right now and effective defense to my bank is to bait me to one-side of the bank shot and then too quickly switch the two-man anticipating when I will shoot. The backpin straight keeps the two-bar fixed. I don't need to use the straight as a primary. I just need it to keep the defense honest.
I'm having a lot of success with this set. I know it might not be the most efficient shot, but to me it's the most fun, and it is a competitive shot. I hate seeing player after player copying and learning the same old shots, rollovers or hammer pull. I've got a great front-toe pull shot, and can win with it. I can hit long and short lightning fast, but it's BORING to me. Winning isn't fun enough. I'd rather entertain. The backpin has so much potential to entertain. I encourage players to toy with it from time to time, but in the end, it only works for me because I've developed one hell of a bank shot, to both sides, with either man, and I've been developing this style of play since 1988. It's not easy to pick up quickly so I can see why many players are not trying it.
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Does anyone know how to do a backpin snake here?
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What would be the point of a back pin snake?
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Well it's fun to see and do. I was wondering if anyone would know how to do it so I they can help me with that.
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It's funny that you should mention a back pin roll over as that was the first I ever heard of or saw a roll over. That was back in 1976. A so called pro was trying to demonstrate it to us amateurs and he obviously didn't know how to do it as it was a ridiculous looking shot. I still wonder if he saw someone do it but it didn't register that it was off a front pin, not a back pin. I'm not so sure it would be a legal shot anyway as the rotation is over 360 degrees.
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If it's not in a front-pin or back-pin position, the person you mentioned is doing a rollover with the man's feet straight down?
I don't know if that's what you mean but I've actually seen people do that kind of shot and they use to say that was a 'snake shot' (but it really isn't).
How they would they do the shot is to roll the handle down their palm until it gets to their wrist with the ball beside the man. They would either tap it with the outside man on the 3-bar to the middle man and hit it or do a pull/push shot with it.
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It was from a backpin position and the man rolled over the top moving the ball forward and across. Something Bbtuna said about shooting Bp's in back without thinking about it made me smile. I've played a bit at a family oriented DYP tournament and they have some great young players. One of them became my little buddy as he was totally driven and soaked up all the info you could throw at him. Finally he got his own table and a monster was born, lol. He asked me if I would show him some more trick shots and I didn't know what he was talking about, not realizing he was talking about BP's. But when I played him I was amazed to eat a hard rocked BP that he reversed into a pull from the push side of the table, back cutting it and shooting it hard. This kid is 80lbs soaking wet and between him and his 14 year old cousin, they scare the crap out of most of the veterans.
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I realize this is an old post... but I just wondered if the newer 3000 Platinum table is any friendlier for the back-pin. I am a "beginner" in that I haven't played much since about 2001, and even then I only spent about 8 years playing bars and local tourneys in the Denver area. Never owned a table, and so never had a whole lot of time to dedicate to pure solo practice. This relegated me to the goalie position, which is just as well as I like it better in the pits anyhow. I wouldn't say that I am a back-pinner, but given the lack of a good set-shot, I relied on the back-pin to set up a lot of options, especially for passes or clears. I am going to pick up a new table in a couple of months (my first) and just wondered if the refresh to the man design, or any of the other small changes to the table had impacted rear pins to any degree.
thanks,
tannji
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I haven't played on a T3000 yet, but backpins are definitely doable on my blonde side with the newer balls. I could never get them down before on tornado tables but now that I've got my own table and time to practice it's a series I really like. I'm not sure if it's the newer balls or just me gaining more control and finesse, but I'm actually surprising myself with what I can do from a back pin.
Charles must not have seen your question yet or I'm sure he'd chime in, he's the back pin king and has been doing it with success on all Tornado tables for years.
I've always done push and pull kicks off a back pin and reverse, but now I'm finding I have about a dozen options from a back pin on the middle dot up front. It's going to be a couple of months before I get it blueprinted but even less than a week into playing around with it I can do all snake options and a few more you can't do with a rollover. The shot just feels fun and natural to me, it's more like a dance with the goalie and I'm finding I like that a lot more than just "beating" a goalie with my pull shot.
I shoot them with my wrist and the control that's possible is phenomenal. Mechanically speaking all options CAN be performed to a high degree of precision and consistency. It takes a good feel for the shot and a strong wrist to do it the way I'm doing it, but that's all just practice.
I really like the whole series, so much in fact that I'm ready to retire a smoking pull shot to the back-up position. Great options, more than any other series I've tried and they're options that I can do comfortably and confidently. Like so many old pull shooters, I'm ready for something that's easier on my arm but the rollover seems totally unnatural to me. I can do back pins all day compared to a pull shot, partly because it's a dance and much more relaxed and fun, and partly because I don't have to go from zero to a hundred in no time flat.
Charles: If you're around I'll probably want to tap you for more info when I get to any sticking points with the series. I also want to make a video of what I'm working with so far just to get an expert opinion from you and any other dedicated back pinners here. I'm all happy like I just discovered a hidden gem, but I only discovered it a few days ago so I want a little more time with it so I don't go hollywood with frankenpin.
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Thanks for that! If all goes well I am getting the coin-op 3000 in a couple of months, and while I haven't played for a long time time until recently, it just seems like the back-pin is the most natural position, I fall into it a lot, and do things without even planning to that give people problems. I look forward to discovering what you talk about = )