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Chat Area => General Chat => Topic started by: bbtuna on June 29, 2009, 04:22:55 PM
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we have had variations on this question maybe more times than any single other question on the board...in attempt to not have to repeat some basics, I am posting this, the mother of all table purchase threads...it includes the following
TABLE OF CONTENTS
PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – costs from $350-$1175
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
PART 2
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
The Brown Marble to The Grey Marble
PART 3
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
T2000 Metal Wrap to the 2009 T3000
PART 4
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
PART 5
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
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PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
Bottom line answer is buy a Torando coin-op unless you have a specific background on a certain table. In the US, there are only 3 table manufactures that are part of a serious discussion.
First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small (but high quality) charity tournaments run in the southeast by Bonzini USA. This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado but at the same time it has a rich history.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – range in price from $300-$1175
No sturdier or more reliable table ever made in the US and probably the world. Tournament players may argue about what table, past or present, has the “best” playing style or which table is “most complete” but no one will argue that the Tornado coin-op (T2000 and T3000) has as good or better build quality/durability as any table EVER made.
If you are thinking, “I will buy a Tornado but don’t want to spend the money for an expensive coin-op”….plain and simple, it is a waste of money to buy a non-coin. Too long a discussion to go into here, you can look it up in previous postings.
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
CRAIG’S LIST: For the Brown Marble – the Metal wrapped T2000, Craig’s list is the best place to find a used coin-op bar none…make your search on Craig’s list as far away as you are willing to drive. You can sometimes find them on eBay but shipping adds $120-$175 to the sale price.
TORNADOFOOSBALL.COM: The simplest and most reliable thing you can do if you can spend $1200 for the state-of-the-art table is you can buy a “tournament used” table (which is like brand new) for $1150-$1175 from Charles MacIntosh at http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/index.html
Or call him at 336-210-1194. Highly recommended if you can afford it, especially right now with the T3000 as it looks like this may be the best table Tornado has made.
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PART 2
Brown Marble - Brown Marble 1983 - 1997 - stopped using the metal feet about 1988 but continued to sell them as parts until 1996 $350-$450
oldest versions have the large metal feet and are considered the most (some debate now with the newest complete change T3000) solid consistent of all the tables
Most common have the current smaller plastic foot - I am not aware of any other substantial difference between this and the large foot except the feet...this was my favorite table but the new T3000 is very close in playability but considering the age and time "in the field" the Brwn Mrbl is still the best table Tornado has made but if the T3000 stands the test of time, it will be a toss up on which is best and the decision will be which play style you prefer
so, if you are looking for an inexpensive used table, this is your best bet...wide swing in quality because of how long they have been out there so this requires patients and careful shopping
Blonde – 1997 - 2001 This was the first color change at Valley ... it matched their ZD-7 pool table - $400-$550
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble and has become my least favorite of all the tables
Cherry or Mahogany 2001 - 2003 Again this was changed to match the ZD-8 pool table - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables and because of this can be a challenge with ball control...
- I own this table, ball control is difficult but the speed is fun...play is improved with heat-treated rods but it doesn't really fix the control issues...however, if you can play on this table, you can play on any table...everything is easier after playing on this which in my mind makes it a good practice table
GREY MARBLES 2003 - 2007 - $400-$750
Overall, even with the quirks and all the confusing talk below about manufacturing changes, this is a really nice table.
30th Anniversary Grey Marble - 2003 release, only out during 2003
You can tell if it is a 30th Ann model because it will say 'Product of Valley' under the logo on the table surface.
This table really starts a wild string of table changes which are hard to document and follow but let me take a stab at it.
The Merkel heat-treated rods were introduced at this time...in my opinion the best table change I have seen on any table at any time - only rival now is the Warrior ball...the rods were very smooth, were almost unbendable, and required far less lube to keep them at their best
Issue 1: First tables released did not all have Merkel rods, there was a mix...some tables had none, some had some, some had all...this run of tables was fairly short so I don't think there were enough made at the end to be sure when ALL Merkel rods were available
Playing surface was a little different and many liked this table because it created extra control due to the surface change...
Issue 2: Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table,
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men
Grey Marble - 2004 to end of 2006 beginning 2007
Different playing surface than the 30th
Earliest versions had mix of men but were consistent with Merkel rods but less than a year in they had gone back to the original man and all Merkel rods...this was the best of the Grey Marbles...good playing solid table
Handles – went from shape which was well known and long running to wood with deeper dip, then to plastic with less dip, which was soundly rejected and short-lived, back to the original wood less dip
Rod - Part way through the life of this version Tornado dropped Merkel because they thought the rod was too expensive and went with an imported heat-treated rod...still better than the original rod but nothing near as good as the Merkel rods (Merkel is the last name of the person making them...made here in the US just for this application...Warrior is considering this in coming competition models)
Merkel rod side thought: How good is this rod? Played on a Brown Marble bar table which saw much non-fooser abuse...every bar table with non-merkel rods is going to have a bent 2 rod, just a matter of time and eventually the 3 rod as well...the owner of this table, without knowing it, replaced the 2 rods with Merkel and we played on that table for OVER 2 YEARS without the 2 rods ever bending...need I say more?
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PART 3
T2000 (Metal Wrap) "Fridge" 2007 to Worlds 2008 - $700-$850 - assuming surface is NOT warpped and has never been warped
Not Tornado name but ... this was the first metal wrap table and it had the small USTSA / VIFA / ITSF logo's on the end. Not widely known but Tornado called this table the T-3000 Tour Edition but for the everyday player it was still a T2000 and the T3000 Full Meal Deal didn't come out until 2009
Okay, this was a good table outside of not having Merkel rods but instead the imported heat-treated rods...no surface, man, or handle changes during the run BUT
Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it ranks with the worst foosball experiences I can remember...EVER! there is no excuse and no fixing it...
The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall. Note: Tornado acknowledges that the warping is real and their problem. Tornado send a new surface but you have to replace the surface yourself and this is not easy for most people. Best not to get one to begin with.
The other tragedy is the change on the latest models, start of 2008 I believe, of the score markers to the new plastic CRAP CRAP CRAP...it may be hard to tell but I don't like these - I understand the logic and why they did it, but it is a terrible design.
Now, with that said, I have a friend (BigBrewGuy on this forum) who has a first run Fridge table with the original score markers and a solid flat playing surface and it is a very nice table and plays really well…he got lucky
It was during this time that Tornado started trying to make some positive changes...they say the warped top issue is fixed...it appears now as of this date, 08/04/09, that the issue is resolved on new table production and that all T3000 (true T3000's) have the issue fixed...any metal wrapped table before the release of the T3000 is at least suspect. Not all are bad, you just need to make sure yours is not if you buy the metal wrapped T2000.
Okay, this is tricky, because there have been a number of changes which took place toward the end of this run moving into the "full meal deal T3000" (I will explain what I mean by this shortly)
Without comment on the motivation or process (and there is a ton), the following are the changes that were decided on
LATE MODEL 2008 Fridge table changes
• Bearings: Inside face of bearings made thinner…because the ball could pass behind a man even when the man was flush on the wall…most notable if you did a stick wall pass perfect - not only could you go through the defense even if the man was flat on the wall but it could also go behind your 3 bar when trying to catch it…this change has fixed that issue completely - from good change so far - I have played on the new bearings at Nationals and on a players upgraded Grey Marble and the bearing is as advertized but it seems to me to improve the rod movement as well which if true is an unplanned result but still good.
• Man: the foot of the man was changed, not enough in my opinion (more on this another time)…they were trying to address two things…ball control and hitting a consistent angle which would open the game up with banks and accurate angle shots like should be used on pushkick and pullkcick shots (not limited to this, just any time a consistent angle is needed) - two changes were done to try and make these things happen
Man change 1 - On the face of the "new" man the cross-hatch goes further up to about ¾ of the face of the man instead of stopping at about ½ way
Man change 2 - this plaid pattern did not go all the way to the edge of the man before the man change (like it does on the Warrior man), instead there was, and is, an “edge” something between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch…very thin but impacting how the ball is struck for angles and control in a pin...this edge was not removed with the new man change but there was an edge change
Man Edge Change - There has been an edge change…in attempt to fix the angle striking issues, that edge has been slightly beveled…so instead of being a right angle with the side of the man, this same line/strip is now on an angle…say from 90 degrees to 45 degrees…I don’t actually think this is a full 45 egrees but rather something in between 90 and 45 degrees, Ed Geer could probably say what they settled on
although in my opinion, they did not make the best decision when changing the mold and should have gone cross-hatch all the way to the edge and taken the curve away and made the front edge a straight edge, the overall change is still positive
• Side-strips, Handles, and Balls - a decision to change these was made at this time too but the changes were not implemented until the T3000 "full meal deal".
Platinum Tour Edition T3000 2009 - current
Platinum Tour 2008 First used fully dressed out at the 2008 World Championships. It was not until the 2009 Hall of Fame tournament that this table had all the upgrades.
What do I mean by “full meal deal T3000”? Well, there are some late model T2000 metal wrap tables (that have the new CRAPPY plastic score markers) and that seem to have been sold as T3000 tables. Some (but not all) of these tables have the Big Tornado and ITSF stickers…see video below on set up of the table Zeke won at Worlds which he calls a T3000 but which is not a Full Meal Deal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFqO5Ng-7s
My local bar was sold this same table (with small stickers) being told it was a T3000…this is the table with the warped surface…This new bar table and the Zeke’s table are NOT what I consider a real T3000 but as pointed out by Dave and Torando, technically this is a T3000… Tornado may indeed have tried to sell these tables as T3000's, name or not, they are NOT the “full meal deal” T3000 and really are late run T2000 tables
I think Zeke’s does not have a warped surface and BigBrewGuy has same table with little stickers sans CRAPPY plastic markers...no other difference...T3000? For sure they are NOT.
T3000 2009 - current - $1000-$1175“FULL MEAL DEAL T3000”This table should have all the changes listed above, men, bearings, CRAPPY score-markers, Big Tornado/ITSF stickers.
In addition to these changes the real T3000 should have a unwarped surface and the following.
Handle Change: Now a softer “plastic” compound same shape as the wood handle above I refer to as “original” handle. It looks something like the plastic handle that Tornado tried during the Grey Marble era but they are a different material, slightly softer, slightly but noticeably smaller, and they do not have the hard edges of the original plastic handle. These factors make this a significant improvement. Real nice handle, highly recommended for Tornado players.
Side-Strip: changed to clear strip, slightly wider, which is essentially flat…this is to keep the ball from jumping up after hitting the strip to help facilitate banks and cut ball off the table…trade off is that the ball gets stuck on the wall from time to time - it works and ball is off the table less
Ball Change: as of 6/29/09 Tornado has settled on a ball and it is slightly darker red, harder, and keeps its scruffy surface longer...it is referred to has the "5 hour tumbled" ball because it has been tumbled for 5 hours to get the surface it has...pretty good ball but I think it is too hard...Tornado isn't showing any signs of changing this ball again any time soon. The 5 hour tumbled ball wears slow and consistant.
1 man goalie table: NOT SHIPPING in US as of 06/29/09 but…???
1 man Goalie?: Announced as the official table to be used at ITSF International Multi-Table Championships in France…hold on to your hats, this one is going to be a wild ride while all the variables, motivations, and practical implementations of this take place. Question about weather the change was “legal” for this tournament, if it would be a conversion kit or permanent table surface change (like Warrior uses), if the change will be permanent, or if the change will be forced in the US this year and/or sometime in the future. For a complete run down of the current public discussion on this (as of 12/26/08) see link below. Read closely AmericanFoosball poster comments, long but very accurate and informed.
http://www.foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2062&sid=db2184ac5b24d5cdff4a43d03b85e02e
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KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
When buying a used table, everyone asks what they should look for…
Take or get lots of close up good digital pictures and I or someone on this site can help you determine what you are looking at… If possible, best to visit table in person but either way, these are the things you are looking for.
1. TABLE SURFACE: First and most important is, is the table surface level...no warping...it would be very weird if a BrMrb had warping but don't assume it is okay because it could warp if it sat in a bar long enough and had enough beer spilled on it - this would be a total deal killer
Tornado has only had one manufacturing issue with warped surfaces and that was the Metal wrapped F5/T2000…not all, but many of these tables had warped surfaces…do not buy one of these…long story but bottom line is it is too much hassle to fix and you can easily find a different coin-op without a warped playing surface.
2. GOAL EDGES: Second and probably a deal breaker are the edges on the goals...if they have been hit enough times that they are starting to chip away, we call this a "blown out goal" then you probably want to pass on this one and wait for the next table (there will be more)...it can be fixed but it is very complicated and requires real skill
3. INSIDE PLAYFIELD WALLS: the inside walls (white surface) should be firmly attached, no lifting, pockets, chipping, holes, etc….this like the goal edges and play surface are very hard for an average person to fix and if they are really damaged, should be a deal killer
4. RODS: rods need to all be straight, no bends at all...the seller can tell if the rods are bent but if they aren’t sure, they can spin each and if it wobbles when it spins, its bent...bent rods are not a deal breaker because they aren't too hard to replace but they are $35 each plus shipping so you would want to figure that out into your offer
5. MEN: Cracked or broken men - same as the rods, not a deal breaker but a cost if some need to be replaced difference is cost is much lower impact at $5 each...you will want to get 2 or 3 of each color anyway unless the person has extra with the table
6. COIN MECHANISM: Make sure the coin mechanism is fully working even if you don’t need it for your use because if you ever want to re-sell it, you will want this working, it gives you a bigger audience of buyers. Replacing all the parts in this is well over $100. With that said, it will be very rare you find one that doesn’t work but you should know for sure before buying. If there are problems, figure them out and what it will cost to fix and negotiate selling price or walk away from deal.
7. FEET AND LEGS: Legs aren’t likely to be bad, haven’t seen that many times but the feet need to be in good shape and working (meaning they can thread up and down)...if not, they can be easily replaced, and they are inexpenisve…this should only impact your offer price
8. BALLS: Are there any with the table and what shape...this is the least of the things but good to know because balls are $3 each...just an aside, a ton of people don't like them but if the ball is a genuine Tornado ball but is well used from a bar, I love them because they get very sticky and are good for control especially for a new player...they bounce a little more too but that doesn't bother me...you will not find universal agreement on this point just my opinion for what its worth…most old Tornado balls can be washed and made near like new easily if you want that
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AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE
Equipment Needed for Basic Maintenance
• Roll pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-020.html
• Silicone 8 oz bottle $12: http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
• Pocket Size $2.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
• Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-049.html
• Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-021.html
If you need to replace any bearings, bumpers, or men, they can be found here
Tornado Parts: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/tornado.html
Spare Parts…what should you have on hand.
• 2 or 3 each color man, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 15-20 roll pins, when you get to 5, reorder
• 4 bumpers, when you get down to 1, reorder
• 1 split bearing halves – these don’t go bad almost ever, so one should take care of you for a long time…reorder when you use it
What to do…Clean the table top to bottom...most people use a 50/50 mix of water and 409 cleaner ... I personally was taught many many years ago never to use anything on the playing surface or on the men so I just use hot water and elbow grease...it is the safe way and guarantees you don't leave any foreign substance on the playing surfaces
on the exterior cabinet, legs, and feet the 50/50 works real well
Using a Bearing Wrench, take all your bearings apart and clean any built up gunk from the bearing half's...the first time you do this on a used table, I recommend taking them all off and doing them all at the same time. For ongoing maintenance, just pull take apart the split bearings once or twice a year or whenever you suspect build up…clean at that time one at a time with hot water or use the 50/50 mixture.
A Bearing Wrench usually comes with the table. You can do it without a bearing wrench but it is harder and this is a basic must have table tool.
Bearing Wrench $5.50: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-049.html
The non-split side of the bearings, the “nut” may be gunky too, they are part of the “bearings”
the ones on the non handle side are easy to remove but if want the bearing nut on this side, you will need to remove handle - make sure you have extra roll pins before beginning this phase of clean up
Roll Pins 30 cents each: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-020.html
Roll Pin Punch $5 or $9: Did you get a roll pin "punch" with the table? if not, again you NEED one of these...you can use other things like a counter sink to get by but this is made for this application and is worth the investment and is a standard table maintenance tool
here is the punch everyone uses standard with every table sold
Roll Pin Punch $5: http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-021.html
however, recently foosball.com found a big boy version of this which I bought and it is much better, easier to use, I absolutely love it...to me, well worth the difference in price...you can't tell by the pictures but trust me when I say the standard is like a 6 year old and the big one is like a professional NFL linebacker...okay, that may be overstated a little but you get the idea...foosdirect is the only place I have ever seen it
Big Boy "Super Pin Driver" $8.95: http://foosdirectstore.stores.yahoo.net/superpindriver.html
Cleaning the Bearings: Simplest approach is to take them all off (bearing halves and the bearing nut), and soak them in very hot water and a liberal amount of dish soap…let these soak while you scrub the table surface and rods…then go back to the bearings when you are done and wash each one until they are totally clean of build up, rinse with hot of water (as hot as you can stand)…lay them out on a dry cloth to drain/dry
Make sure they are air or hand dried completely before putting them back on the table
After you have all your bearings cleaned and before you replace them, clean the rods really well to remove anything left on them like silicone, beer, Jack Daniels, or other "special" fluids people creatively use to "lube" the rods
Silicone: Hopefully you were given some Silicone but if not you NEED it...I recommend buying a large supply bottle and the small applicator Pocket Size version. The Pocket Size version it is by far the best way to apply silicone and you can use the big bottle to refill the travel size. Silicone should go on rods only, don’t get it on anything else, it is very slick. Apply thin line on each rod from the bumper to the edge of the inside bearing – do this on the near side and far side of the rod.
Turn the rod in circles and pull the rods back and forth gently and slowly at first to evenly distribute the lube on all sides and to not splatter any on the table surface.
8 oz bottle $12 http: //tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
Pocket Size $2.50 http: //foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
Ball Care: If you have gotten Tornado balls with your used table or end up with older used Tornado balls, you can bring them back to near new by simply putting them is a sock and throwing them in your washer and wash with soap and hot water. When they are done, throw them in the drier (still in the sock) and dry on hot fully. There are many other methods but this is simple and works surprisingly well.
NOTE ABOUT ON-GOING MATINENANCE
once you have done the complete cleaning, you won't need to put more than an hour a two a year into maintenance to keep your table like new...if you play everyday, wipe the surface once a month or so, clean bearings one hear one there as needed, and lube the rods as needed. Very simple and easy. Every couple years you can do the deep cleaning with all bearings and so forth. Along the way, you will need to change a man and a bumper even less often. Thats it, it just doesn't get any easier.
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Wow....... an entire BBtuna thread.....slow day,lol.
Good info my man.
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First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small charity tournament run in the southeast by Bonzini USA. This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/
Just a few more interesting notes about a Bonzini foosball table.
Bonzini has been in business since 1929. Bonzini tables have been in the U.S. since 1965.
Bonzini U.S.A. is player owned and operated. Other than being the exclusive importer and distributor for Bonzini, we operate free from any manufaturer constraints. We actually distribute tables from our warehouse in Winston-Salem world-wide to areas without authorized Bonzini distributors.
Our small charity events have raised right at $140,000.00 since 2001.
The table is expensive. The cost of real wood versus MDF, the stainless steel, unbreakable men, fuel charges, U.S. Customs, warehousing.etc.. It retails for $2395.00, but registered Bonzini U.S.A. players receive an additional $200.00 discount. Also tournament tables are discounted further for players. ITSF upgrades are done free of charge for players also. Being player owned and operated, we do everything possible to make this purchase affordable.
If the Euro and USD were to ever equalize, we will be able to drop our prices. $1 USD = 1.41 Euro today.
The table then would retail for around $1,700.00.
If you purchased a Bonzini B-90 in 1998 from Bonzini U.S.A., your table has actually appreciated in value. And guess what, the cabinet design has not changed in over 60 years. So no repeated yearly purchases from the manufacturer when they decide to change designs or manufacturing processes.
The table does play very differently from Tornado or Warrior, but all the same shots are possible on a Bonzini.
Before asking "What table should I buy?" one may want to ask "What am I buying a foosball table for?".
The Bonzini table and style of play has a rich tradition in the Southeast and in small pockets throughout the U.S. like La Jolla, California, Utica, NY and Brockton, Mass.
Bonzini U.S.A. has absolutely no interest in trying to compete with any other table manufacturer in the U.S. for the current foosball player base. We strive to provide our customers the best product, backed by the best service and price possible. As for our dedicated touring foosball players, we continue to provide the best entertaining playing venues possible on the East Coast, and present the game of foosball in the most positive manner to the local audience.
The Bonzini table is a fun table to play and I believe the present and future Bonzini U.S.A. players out they are a great group to work with.
Just a few more tid bits of info.
But I also like to play my EuroSoccer, Garlando and 30th Anniverary Tornado table too.
AC\\
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This is very valuable information - thanks a lot!
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Ice,
thanks, I have helped quite a few people with buying tables since starting on the board and repeat a lot of information and have been wanting to collect it up into one place...yea, it was a slow day yesterday :P
this is one of my ways to give back to the game...I like doing it and I think it has been helpful for a number of people half or more of which are casual players...
Alan,
thanks for the addition...no disrespect to Bonzini meant, but my decision is based on availbility for used market tables, cost, and distribution. For those who already have time on Bonzini and love that style of play and cost isn't an issue and they don't want to play the main tour tournaments, then Bonzini is a great choice. Or as a second table, that is why I used the word "primary"
I didn't even bring up Techball, Garlando, and Eurosport because they are even less available in the US and they don't even have the small charity tournaments you put on so well.
If I had the money and space, I would have one of everyone of them.
Bonzini is a fine product and is totally unique in its playing style and it has a long proud history. You do a super fine job with it in the US and I wish you continued success.
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definitely deserves a sticky, excellent job!
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Good thread BB, can we get a sticky to cut down on the usual noob threads????
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The only relevant information I couldn't find was about how to bypass the coin mechanism.
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The only relevant information I couldn't find was about how to bypass the coin mechanism.
The absolute best way is to open the table and remove the ramp, then place a golf ball on the inner rail where the hole is leading to the butterfly feed. The golf ball will keep the balls from making it to the coin mech, you just reach in and pluck them off the rail as needed.
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Wildcard,
I read your 'pluck them' comment, and now I can't stop thinking about eating a big basket of hot wings...near a foos table, of course...LOL
HAGWE.........................Tyler
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Tyler,
Oh yea, Hot wings sounds good. You had also mentioned the food in Wilmington is good. Got to get to Thunder in the Mountains some year, since Alan described the Ham Pockets-early. What table should I buy? Bonzini (just my 2 cents). Oh, & evidently the food around their tour stops is mighty tasty too. John
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bump
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bbtuna:
I had a few questions... You mention that the Cherry/Mahagony tables were the fastest of all tables. What exactly makes a table fast or slow? Is it the playing surface, the balls used, the smoothness of the bearings, a combination of all these things and others...not sure what that meant.
Also you mentioned that the Grey Marbles made immediately after the 30th Anniversary Grey Marble had different playing surfaces... Is the 30 Anniversary completely different than all the other playing surfaces? Or were all the playing surfaces the same through the 30th Anniversary, and then after that they changed it? Or are you saying that with each new edition they changed the playing surface...ie Brown Marble playing surface was different than the Blonde models, which are different than the Cherry, etc...etc...
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well, the ball, rods, bearings, surface, men can all play a part in table speed...the bearings, balls, rods are all conistant (realitively speaking) even the men Brwn Mrbl up to the Grey Mrbl were the same
every so often, Tornado does something a little different in manufacturing the surface...below is a post from Ed Geer if I remember right...this doesn't really explain how the surfaces play different but it explains why surfaces change from time to time
to an average person, the changes mean nothing but to a serious player, they can really see the differences
the biggest differences have been in the Cherry...looks the same but it is for sure faster and there is no other explanation that can reason the change
the other is on the 30th Ann model...I think it is the darker green Ed mentions below...as time has gone on, I have heard more comments from every level player that they feel the 30th played better than any other...i have a friend with a 30th and his is probably my favorite Tornado of all time after he changed the men, handles, 5 hour tumbled ball, and new low profile bearings...it was great before, but those changes make it the best I have played on...good balance between speed and control
note, more speed means less control...control is created through friction and friction is the bane of speed
weight plays a role too but friction is the most obvious
get yourself a number of different balls, with various textures (super hard cheap soccer style balls to a Bonzini cork ball), and play with them a few minutes on the same Tornado table and you will see what i mean...even the difference between the old pink Tor ball and the new 5 hour tumbled ball is big but then throw a Warrior ball on the table and have some fun...big big difference
ED GEER...
There are 2 manufactures of custom high pressure Laminate that I know Tornado has used in the past, they are:
1. Wilson-Art
2. Pionite
The original 1981 spec for the surface was that of Wilson-Art 40 sheen with a sandblast texture. However over time and after Dynamo bought Tornado, they changed to Pionite on the first Dynamo built tables, later they changed back to Wilson-Artor maybe to Nevamar on the blonde table series. Pionite has always been the cheapest of the three and there spec is not 40 sheen but more like 75 or 80 sheen. Pionite doesn't have a sandblast texture either, it is called eggshell. The Pionite Hpl is slick dark green even though the color of the laminate has nothing to do with how slick it is.
Today I beleave the Mexican tables are using something similar to Pionite. The coin-ops are still made in Fort Worth and I beleave the surface is made currently by Wilson-Art. Wilson-Art is my preferred material.
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Tuna:
Once again you are a wealth of foosball information...
This is going to sound crazy, but I am thinking about "building" a frankenstein Tornado table.
I am really not that into the T3000 Stainless look, nor do I like the "new and improved" scoring post design. I do however LOVE the look of the older Cherry tables.
In theory if I were to put my 30th Anniversary playfield on a coin-op Cherry table, installed all Merkel rods, installed all the new style men, new thinner bearings and new thinner playfield side strips, used the new tornado 5 hr tumbled balls, etc... Then it should play every bit as good as the new T3000 coin op, right? Or am I way off in my logic?
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i think that is good logic...changing the playfield is not easy, it would probably be the same work to just change the vineer on your existing 30th...that way you can go and find the exact vineer you want, it doesn't need to be Tornado...so if you want a specific cabinet look, you can get exactly what you want
Mark Murrell has changed the vineer on all his custom tables and he is THE expert in creating the perfect table...for many years now he has purchased old tables and stripping them down and making them the best playing table ever...Mark is an engineer and he has done everything to a table you can think of
you can get him on the other board he posts as mmurrell
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Tuna:
Another question... finally got my handles off and I think I have a 30th Anniversary with all Merkel rods. I was told that you can tell by a small drilled circle by the handle end, which is what I have on all my rods...I was told that the Chinese rods have a tiny "c" on the handle end. The only reason why I say "I think" I have all Merkel rods is because I see the small drilled circle by the handle end, and I can confirm that my 2 man rods are both Merkel...but the other rods are distinctly different, in that they have a clearly smaller drilled out circle diameter. Not sure what to make of it, and I can post pics to clarify.
Also, on the veneer laminate issue... I was under the impression that it wasn't worth the effort or something? I will definitely contact Mark Murrell though as you have picqued my interest. Do you happen to know his email? If you do not want to post it, then feel free to email me directly at: jinhopark@yahoo.com
Thanks!
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thought i posted this here but i guess i did it on the other board...i will keep this handy for future use
here is what Mark Murrell posted on how to determine Merkels
Mark Murrell
The rod on the right is a Merkel rod. Shown is the handle end of several rods. You can easily see the chamfer at the pin hole and the funny color of the heat treated metal. There is a dot on one side that is 3/4" from the pin hole. Other rods have dot 1/2" from hole or has no dot.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/4120672600_4409d52907_m.jpg)
Don't want to remove the handle? Here's the other end. None of the rods looks anything like the Merkel here on the right and at the bottom.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2721/4120673022_7e8e5a0e72_m.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2585/4120673384_4afa1efde2_m.jpg)
Sorry, I have no shots of Chineese heat treated rods. They have a "C" or partial C stamp instead of the dot. They don't have anywhere near the quality and the open end shows it. So if your uncertain as to what you've got maybe this will help identify. Merkels came on some Gray marble tables but otherwise cost you $260 plus shipping so if your buying or selling a table don't forget to consider these in the price if they are there. You can't buy them new now and may never be able to.
note, if you want to see larger versions of these pictures you can go to my Flikr account
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24345876@N05/
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The merkel rods have a ground finish on both ends of the rod,the other ones look like they have been cut off with a saw.If you get Mark Murrells email address could you forward it on to me at robdarla@hotmail.com I want to find out if he will make me some teflon bearings for my table thanks Rob
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mmurrell@cox.net
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bbtuna:
Here is an update that I have found in my own personal experience...my sample size is small so please take what I am saying with a grain of salt.
Currently in my stable I have:
approximately 15 year old HM2000
approximately 7-9 year old cherry/mahogony coin-op
7 year old 30th anniversary grey marble coin-op
After > 3 months of playing on my grey marble coin-op and >1 month of playing on my cherry/mahogony coin-op I find that my grey marble is noticeably faster. I've asked others who come over and they make the same comment. I'm sure there are a lot of variabilities in tables, not only from model year to model year, but I'm sure from sample to sample even on the same batch... It's interesting/fun to play on both tables.
I am going to sell my HM2000, since now I have a coin-op I can't go back to a home model...and I was even going to sell one of my coin-ops, but now I am thinking of changing one of those to a fun black light neon table or something for the kids to play on.
I don't know how I am going to talk my wife into keeping 2 coin-ops in the basement...might be in the dog-house a while after that conversation. Wish me luck.
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at least some, if not all, 30th had a different surface on it and I remember the first tourny i went to that had one 30th, and a bunch of non, pro masters complaining about the 30th being slick which is the same thing as saying fast
however, i have a friend with a 30th and i played on his table a good bit before it was converted with new men, handles, and bearings and it was never faster than my Cherry but i have played on a slow Cherry before, a beat coin op at a bar
good luck keeping both tables, tell us what its like living outside with your dogs ;D
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In my opinion most Tornado tables are ok. There are better tables. bbtuna must own alot of stock in the company the way he talks them up.
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i will excuse you because you are a first time poster, you didn't read the beginning of the thread very closley, and you are obviously not a US tournament player...i am no ones puppet and my comments are unbiased and focused on foosball in the US...if you want to ignore the advice, then buy anything you want for sure
if you have some great ideas about tables for people then start your own thread and detail your findings and you can inform all of us with your great table knowledge
if you don't need help buying a table because you know so much and you are a satisfied casual player it doesn't matter what table you have chosen...
just guessing, but you probably think Boze is high end audio don't you...
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You seem to be really biased on the Tornando table brand when the quality is not all it's cracked up to be. Thats all. I wonder if you are a US tournament player or just somebody that just talks.
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im guessing you are a flamer and I will only respond this one additional time...the fact that you don't know makes it clear you don't know...i certainly talk plenty but i also know a few things and if you are not a flamer, you might want to learn a little something before floating by on your little dingy firing warning shots with your bb gun at this nuclear aircraft carrier
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It's JUST a game not a way of life. I have my opinion and you have yours. I don't think you like criticism on your opinion. Nothing personal. As for the aircraft carrier analogy, a lot of them have been hit and sunk. You sure are sensitive.
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Tuna, as you know there are plenty of people here (myself included) that truly value your opinion.
I appreciate the time you take to reply back to everyone's posts in a professional manner, and I'm not sure why people take the time and effort to push people's buttons...but please do not let those nay sayers speak for the majority here.
If you truly had stock in Tornado I doubt you would tell "would be buyers" to troll the used market and wait for a coin-op that would last a lifetime...you would more than likely push them to a new low end model. You also inform buyers to make informed decisions, which for good (for the buyer) or bad (for the seller) normally drives down the cost in the used market.
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jinohpark, my criticism of a particular member is for a reason. A very good reason. I have no doubt he knows how to play. Tournament play is questionable. I have been playing since the 70's when I started out on a old Micro Champion table. That was all there was around here at the time. Just don't forget that there are some people who are not as they appear to be. It is easy to take info off web sites and put it out there as there own.
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Lenexa- I can assure you that BBTuna does not just blow smoke on his posts, I have met and played in the same State and Local Tournaments as he has. And your wrong it IS a WAY OF LIFE. Before you go bagging on Tornado why don't you give us a little input on your "choice" table? And I think you are mispronouncing the name of your above mentioned table, It's a Mirco not Micro. Your posting in a very prominent Tornado table group here so don't expect to intro with 4 posts and get any respect.
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:)Well said Snake. I had almost forgotten about the Mirco tables. Man, those were the days...playing on a different table in every bar, pre TS days. Have you ever stopped and counted the number of different tables you've played on ? Remember the old Garlando with the metal goal ? How annoying was that sound ? Just sayin'...
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no aircraft carriers have been sunk by a bb gun
thanks for the support guys...
i am so neutral i scare myself, i have over my time posting on this and the other main foosball board, tried to always remain straight forward and honest and not influenced by a specific table or sub-culture...like a good reporter or reviewer...i have never received any benefit from any table manufacturer or organization
i started playing around 1973 or 1974, my serious early life was on TS although like many have through the years played on tons of tables...I laid off 1981ish to 2004ish so i didn't see the rise of Tornado, the fall of Dynamo...but since being back, about 5 years, i have had the opportunity to play on a number of the second tier type tables that are sold to the unsuspecting casual player
this website has for whatever reason, attracted casual players looking for a table and often come on here asking if they should spend $400-$800 on junk talbes - I spend the first couple years responding and repeating many things and finally just pulled it all together there
even still, i know i have personally helped several dozen people find tables from posts on this site...in addition i have probably helped another 8-10 people who never post on here but instead just email me directly...I have taken a ton of personal time with emails, posts, and phone calls and have never received, asked for, expected, or wanted any compensation of any kind
the information in this thread, is generic and mostly varifiable fact not just opinion...when it is opinion I am usually pretty clear on that...when i work with people I try and find out their interest level, their use, background in foos, and how they will use the table and so forth but in the end, most people are ready to spend $400-$600
if they are a casual player, I say without apology, there is not a better table they can find for that kind of money (in the US) and if you know of some, please do share...the added benefit is if they decide to dabble in local tournament play or have kids that might have interest some day, all the table time they log on the Tornado will benefit them greatly...if not, no loss because they don't know anything, or care, about other table playing styles but they will have purchased a table that will play true for as long as they own it ...and as i say, it will literally last your life time
now, i know of some tables that will last as long, like some Bonzini and Garlando for example, but they are not nearly as available as Tornado and they won't help with a US tournament transition - in addition, both of these are nearly impossible to get for $400-$500 - I have Never seen one under 15 years old, coin op or like, sell for that kind of money and this is after tracking all table sales on eBay for nearly 5 years..the last (1 1/2-2 years i stopped searching through everything and only hunt for Tornado coin ops so if things have changed, I could be wrong)
even with all that, I don't support lower Tornado model purchases because the build and play quality to value ratio is not good enough
last i have played on Harvard, Carrom, Shelti, and a number of others this second time around and everytime i walk into a retail store, Sears, Thompsons, Wallymart etc, I see what they have and its all junk and some are asking the same thing you can get a good used Tornado coin op
i will close with this "It is easy to take info off web sites and put it out there as there own." this is so true and if you did a little research before firing away here you would find I don't fall into that category...it is also true that "It is easy to come unto a forum you have never posted on and talk about things you know nothing about"
if you are 70's returning player who just doesn't really get the change in foosball, I get it, I have seen it many times...if that is the case, take a step back and learn before you speak...lots of us on this site are returning players and might be able to help you with the transition as we have each other along the way
if you are a real life flamer, just STFU and get off our site, we don't need your kind - and i mean that in a very professional value-based sort of way
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Well said Charles. Thanks for all the help you give.
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Charles your immense amount of knowledge concerning this game is impresive! Alan although I don't know you personaly I have the utmost respect for the way you promote and represent bonzini. I believe all 3 of us sincerly care about the game of foosball and want to see it flourish. My view happens to be similar to that of Henry Ford relating to the automobile. If it is made affordable and advertised effectively, you can get one in a large percentage of american homes. I think both of you would also agree with me that should I be succesful, there will be a percentage of those players who will prefer the Bonzini style of play along with other tables. Therefor my stratigy can do nothing but increase the demand for Bonzini tables and like I said other Tables, also anyone who has played on a Warrior will also tell you it is much more friendly to a beginer or lower skilled player. But forget about all that stuff, let me introduce you to 4 undeniable reasons why any young red blooded young man should start out playing Warrior!
http://www.warriortablesoccer.com/company/about.php
Argue with those 4 reasons Charles!
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Yup, I see it coming, a tournament where Warrior, Tornado and Bonzini all must be played in order to see who is the champion. And Bbtuna, an amazing display of restraint, lol. We boomers truly have a few things to learn upon returning to the game. It's funny how we think we know it all and then have to go through the humbling process in order to get back to reality. I don't remember you being so easy on me when you countered my naive outbursts, lol. I'll never forget the American Idol comparison, I remember it with a smile though, you were absolutely right. Thankfully the Big Guy gave me the gift of delayed introspection,,, ;D
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if every table comes, no pun intended, with those four reasons then you could probably charge a little more and still break all table sales records whatever they may be...if you get an international version then Katy bar the door and since you are a visionary, i think a package for women would grow that side of the game as well
i see 40 to 50 million tables a year world wide 8)
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"Charles your immense amount of knowledge concerning this game is impresive! Alan although I don't know you personaly I have the utmost respect for the way you promote and represent bonzini. I believe all 3 of us sincerly care about the game of foosball and want to see it flourish. My view happens to be similar to that of Henry Ford relating to the automobile. If it is made affordable and advertised effectively, you can get one in a large percentage of american homes. I think both of you would also agree with me that should I be succesful, there will be a percentage of those players who will prefer the Bonzini style of play along with other tables. Therefor my stratigy can do nothing but increase the demand for Bonzini tables and like I said other Tables, also anyone who has played on a Warrior will also tell you it is much more friendly to a beginer or lower skilled player. But forget about all that stuff, let me introduce you to 4 undeniable reasons why any young red blooded young man should start out playing Warrior!"
Brendan,
The Bonzini table is an interesting product. For a game that has never had an organized player base, organized distribution company, or manufacturer support in the U.S. many wonder how and why it has survived. It has been an embedded style of play here on the east coast for over 40 years now. It's unique playing style is the "attractor" and hopefully the culture of the player base we are trying to develop will increase it's longevity. It was dying a slow death in the mid -1990's. As far as "high-end" tables go, the Bonzini table has passed the test of time. We definately have strong brand loyalty. It' been a long 11 years restructuring the Bonzini movement but I really proud of the players that have embraced the philosophy and have made our events grow.
As for the Warrior table, the players that cross over to my Bonzini events here in the Mid-Atlantic states have nothing but good things to say about the Warrior tables playability. I have not been able to attend one of your events to test one out, but hopefully this summer when the Bonzini tour slows down I can venture out to play a little. The fact that you shot for a table design that affords all styles of play was a great step. While I'm stuck in a niche market, I do see that the Warrior table has the potential to either gain and dominate the player scene, but I see challenges for Warrior in the Game Vending world when you eventually produce a coin-op version. I do encourage you to hit the Trade Shows asap for game vendors to gather some intel and identify the good ole boy structure that exist.
I recently did a presentation for a company looking to use "foosball" in some marketing and promotional programs. I had to really stress that "foosball and foosball players" are merely the bait to attract an audience. The fact that their product is associated with the foosball event should merit some interest from their products consumer. I would love to see the day when a foosball tournament event is held in a mall's center square for all to see. Think about the potential player growth when you have a mall crowd passing through and around watchnig the action.
Anyway, we're a small company and we'll stay the course. Our product is strong and our players/advocates/clients are satisfied with our service and support. It's a grind at times but it has its rewards at the end of the day.
Catch you later,
AC
ps, If I was young and single again, I would agree those are 4 good reasons to play Warrior. ;)
Also, Henry Ford helped create the "weekend". After making the Modle T afforadable for all, he even gave his employess a day off to enjoy his product.
So maybe by playing Warrior we can create a 4-day work week. :D
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If the new Tornado tables manufactured they way they are were cars or trucks they would be on the government recall list. I think they call them "lemons".
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Really lenexa and whats your idea of a "quality" foosball table? Are you on the Halex or Sportscraft national tour or? Please share you thoughts.
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I am making some tables and want to get the surface right. You mention Wilson-Art laminate with a certain finish as being used. Would you say that finish is the most important for playability? Is the current T3000 finish good or could it be improved (implying that T3000 is the standard)?
I really appreciate the info in this sticky. Thanks,
Craig
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If the new Tornado tables manufactured they way they are were cars or trucks they would be on the government recall list. I think they call them "lemons".
Lenexa,
Please write proper English, grammatically check your posts, and stop being such an A$$
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Nice Paul let him have it both barrels!! How's Little Italy? You didn't let those guys school you to bad did you? I have some Inside Foos Dvd's for you of Spredeman and Ryan Moore, Several others. Give me a shout if you still have my number and I will get them to you.
Snake
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Yeah Paul, where were you Tuesday? I thought I'd make an appearance at Little Italy's and meet you and also check on the kids(that Dylan is a killer player). Oh well, we had fun.
Lenexa, people here will be welcoming if you don't come off so confrontational. Tell us your story and you might find that we are tolerant if given a chance.
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I just got off the phone with a guy that has a Coin-op table for sale from a bar that closed down local to me. He said it's in excellent shape and it was purchased new in Jan '06. According to the list, it just might be a grey marble with merkel rods...exactly what I've been looking for for the past couple months!! :D
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I just got off the phone with a guy that has a Coin-op table for sale from a bar that closed down local to me. He said it's in excellent shape and it was purchased new in Jan '06. According to the list, it just might be a grey marble with merkel rods...exactly what I've been looking for for the past couple months!! :D
How much dey ask'in fer it?
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He said he wasn't sure what it was worth, but he'd like to get $500 for it. :D
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Does it come with a bearing wrench, pin driver, and 9 balls? Are the rods bent? Have any up and down play in the bearings? Good thing about Tornado, it can all be fixed, and parts are available. If it’s a solid table, $500 is not a bad price.
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a Grey Marble for $500, assuming there are no structural issues and all 8 rods don't need replacing, is a STEAL
if it is an 06 Grey it should be all the best Merkel rods which makes it worth even more...I would jump on that as fast as possible...just check for structural issues and if there aren't any, have that 500 in your pocket and make the deal before someone swoops in and takes it from you
now GET MOVING!
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I have a little hobby of looking at tables for sale on craigslist at many major cities just to see what is out there...
In my 6 month quest for a tornado coin-op I had 4 deals that were comprable in price to this table. And tables that came up in this price range were from Tampa to Charlotte....I am in the middle of the two cities and willing to drive. After talking to the people about the details/condition/etc. of the tables I told them I would call them back shortly if I wanted to purchase....when i called back to say I was on my way the tables were gone!....SOLD and I mean in a few hours.
To reiterate Tuna...you must pounce on this table tonight or it will be gone!
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What's interesting is it isn't posted anywhere online. He stocks all kinds of stuff at bars around town. I just spoke to him again and he said he has two tables in bars right now that he wants to sell. He says they were bought new in the begining of 2006, but he thought they were dark brown or blonde wood grain. From what I've read though, they should be grey marbles though. I'm going to check them out tonight. $500 for either one.
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Hey Charles I found a MINT dark cherry coin-op on craigs list for $500 I just don't know anything about cherry's or blonde's. Play like a brownie or grey marble? Thoughts from you guys....
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cherry plays fastest of all the tables - a mint condition coin op for 500 is a good deal...i own the cherry and i like the Grey and Brown Mrbls best for how they play ... if we could still get Merkel rods and with the ability to convert any table to current standards, you can make them all play great
my cherry is fully converted, men, bearings, side strips, and handles and i already had Merkels on my side and I would put it up against any other table
however, since most Grey's come with Merkels, it is the best table you can buy right now...i would pay up to 800 for one so anything less is a deal
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if you have the cash flow buy both and sell the second one...should be able to get at least 700 if you take your time and maybe as much as 850
tell us what happens because that is a super great deal
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He called me back with a third option. I just got done looking at it. It's an old brown marble with metal feet. He said it's been at this bar "forever". The laminate was chipped On a couple corners, the rods spun smoothly, but 2 and 3 man had a slight wobble. Overall a very dirty looking table and some of the men were held on with literally, rust nails. He said $350 for it. Off to the next place where an '06 table is.
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Table 2 is a great marble 30th anniversary in great shape. One question though, how can I tell if it has merkel rods? I noticed all rods are very thick except one of the goalie rods is thinner walled(bigger hole). The edges are kind of rough cut with a bevel that almost looks like it was done with a file, then chrome plated over. Any thoughts??
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Table 3 was a blondie in pretty good shape other than bent rods. Doesn't seem worth it to me.
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Table 2 is a great marble 30th anniversary in great shape. One question though, how can I tell if it has merkel rods? I noticed all rods are very thick except one of the goalie rods is thinner walled(bigger hole). The edges are kind of rough cut with a bevel that almost looks like it was done with a file, then chrome plated over. Any thoughts??
For $500 I'd jump all over this grey marble 30th...
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the 30th is a great table and well worth it...hard to tell with the Merkels but if its been in a bar and none of the rods are bent they are most likely merkel...most of the 30th had merkels but not all...if the rods are not bent, i would not hesitate to take a 30th for 500 - still a great deal...grab while you can
the metal feet brwn mrbl is at least 20 years old and with bent rods is worth about 200 because rods are 35 each to replace
forget the blond, my least favorite table...not bad, just not my fav...grab the 30th now, now, now!!!!!
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i will be updating this soon about the 3 big issues with the Tornado T3000 Plat Tour Edition - warped surfaces AGAIN, rods bending quite a bit and after manufacturing heat treatment for 2 rod, and the man too close to the surface launching balls...until ALL 3 of these issues are dealt with, I can not recommend a new Tornado table even for someone who has the money...
i will reserve final judgement until I can get a hold of one but from everything I have read over the last couple years and much recently, I think Fireball will be the best table ever built and if its what I think it is, it will become my number one recommendation...I have to see how it plays compared to Tor and War and what kind of adjustments will need to be made in a person's game if they want to still play those other tournaments - i anticipate the changes to be no more than Tor to War or War to Tor but we will see. but for the casual player who doesn't care about tournaments, it will be a no-brainer
I am very excited about the Fireball, very smart design but someone who has built thousands and thousands of tables and the Fireball is nearly 4 years old and he has continued to make improvements that entire time...i am stoked!
here is a great video on the table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161Ja6Q7zEY
here are some recent threads worth reading on the table
http://foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5741
http://foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5891
http://foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5846&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
http://foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5754
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Charles,
I'd have to agree with you, from what I've learned from our Fred "Shanghai" Gower when he returned to China, with his Tornado, got a Fireball from his buddy, Fireball's maker, Dennis, and started touring round China to promote the new ITSF table for China. Those rods & the goal mouths are insanely impressive.
I hope that Fball makes a monster splash among T players here. Coin-ops, better built than Tornado, and he (Dennis) may go 3-g men after the opinions on FBBoard and other places he's been receiving. If Fireball goes 3-g, Tornado in bars and venues cross-country, WATCH OUT. Could be over for them, just like it might be for Warrior's exclusive partnership with IFP.
If Dennis can sell Fireballs, home & coin-op models for prices between the Warrior and the top Tornados... that woudl be the first crack in the ole Valley armor in decades... fighting for venue placement and sales...
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If not, we can all switch to Stiga Table Hockey... not too different from our Bubble Hockey machines over the years.. but just as fun. And very similar skills to foosball.
And no dried "loogies" on the bubble to block the view anymore.. ;)
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Quick question, I looked at 30th Anniversary Grey Marble Edition yesterday. It has a couple small chips on one of the goals. Only the front part of the goal has some very small chips, if that makes sense. It isn't chipping away in the main part where it would change the size of the goal. Is this cause for concern? I ask because that was one of the dealbreakers on page one of this thread.
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Can anyone comment on this...I posted to another subject but haven't had a response. Thanks for your help!
Re: Interested in buying a Tornado Coin-Op???
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 09:42:31 AM »
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Quote from: jinhopark on April 22, 2010, 11:53:06 PM
Quote from: bbtuna on April 22, 2010, 03:18:07 PM
all but the last two are asking way too much
The one for $1 in Atlanta sounds interesting...but I doubt he'd take that. WTF does, "Willing to take trade of cash offers" mean? Doesn't everyone take trade of cash offers? Who wouldn't trade for cash? Now if he said "Willing to take trade for furs, beaver tails, coon-skin caps or something now that would be interesting".
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/bar/1700488439.html
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I'm in Atlanta and a noob on buying a foosball table. I want a high quality set that can take abuse from adults and kids alike. I'm not a foos fanatic (i.e tournament player) but do love the game. This will be in my basement play room (adults and kids). I emailed the guy in Atlanta about the one listed on CL. He said it is in great condition. ~ 1year old. No flaws. Barely used. He is asking $1,150. That posting was mid-April I think so he hasn't sold it yet.
What's your opinion on that price for that table? What price should I try to get? He said he also has a light kit for $95. What model is this?
Thanks for your help!
Also, are the Tornado Sport or Classic models any good?
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well, if it is what the picture is showing, I guess it is the T3000 but we would have to ask a bunch of questions first to see exactly what table it is and since it is a "fridge" (metal wraped) I would first want to know if it has a warped surface...I would want to know where and when he got it
but it would be quicker just to say "No" because you can buy a new one for $25-$50 more...however, buying New or "tournament used" (which is like new and saves $100) but the current model has a few issues that have not been sorted out far as I have heard so far (see my entries a couple entries above this)
if you want a good table that will stand up under anything you can give it, and you want it now, look for a used Grey Marble...you should be able to pick one up for $400-$700
I think the Fireball will be available in June but until I can review one personally I can't put my final recommendation though I think it will be a great table especially for the situation you are talking about
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well, if it is what the picture is showing, I guess it is the T3000 but we would have to ask a bunch of questions first to see exactly what table it is and since it is a "fridge" (metal wraped) I would first want to know if it has a warped surface...I would want to know where and when he got it
but it would be quicker just to say "No" because you can buy a new one for $25-$50 more...however, buying New or "tournament used" (which is like new and saves $100) but the current model has a few issues that have not been sorted out far as I have heard so far (see my entries a couple entries above this)
if you want a good table that will stand up under anything you can give it, and you want it now, look for a used Grey Marble...you should be able to pick one up for $400-$700
I think the Fireball will be available in June but until I can review one personally I can't put my final recommendation though I think it will be a great table especially for the situation you are talking about
How much are the Fireball's going to be going for?
Are the Tornado home versions good or overpriced...Sport? Classic?
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the lower models are crap with Tornado and not worth the money...Fireball says he, Dennis, thinks the coin op will be about $1000
how much are you wanting and willing to spend? how are you planning on using the table?
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FYI - I pulled this quote from the other board from the Fireball guy.
"The first container of tour models for the US will arrive in LA by the end of May. These tables will be used for the tour mostly. Interested buyers can buy from the tour event promoters at a discounted price. More shipments will come in the following months. Once we have a good stock of tables more than to satisfy the tour need, tables will be available for purchase. Please check the website announcement after May for table availability."
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It looks like there will be a Fireball tournament in GA later this year. I believe it is being run by Phil Grable. I am fairly sure that some of the tables will be for sale after the tournament. I am not sure what the tables will sell for, but the ones for sale in Florida after the Tournament in June are advertised at $729.
Very reasonable price for a quality table with only one tournaments worth of play on it.
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I spoke to Phil and he will have some Fireball's for sale after that tourney. ~$720/730. I believe these are not coin op.
He has a brown marble in good condition with several recent upgrades:
New 2& 3 rods (Merkel)
New bearings
New bumpers
He's asking $750. It's a 1993 model.
Is this a good price?
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750 is way too high for a 17 year old table even with some updates...i don't know when he changed the rods so I can't comment for sure about the "Merkel" - the original actual Merkel's made during the Grey Marble time have not been available for several years and the current rods some are calling Merkel are not the same thing AND only the 2 rods have been treated at all
if ALL the bumpers were changed (which isn't likely) it would be $32 and new bearings (does he mean the most recent low profile bearings and are they changed on ALL rods?) if all are changed would be $48
Brwn Mrbls sell between $300-$500...even if it has the old best Merkels and changed all the bumpers and had the new low profile bearings, $550 to $600 would be top top dollar
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Tick tick tick tick tick...
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JH,
before you make declarations on how FB and Tor compare you might want to actually play on the table - this makes you looked bad
here is one of the things Dennis (owner) says about the table,
Fireball is a result of collection of merits from many pro tables we have made in the past 10 years. Most table parts have undergone long-time testing in the field and have been proven to last. Before showing the table in Vegas early this month, the table had pretty much been inspected by some of the best players in the world such as Frederic, Tony, Fred Gower, Thierry Muller, Oktay Mann, Johnny Lott, Jamal, among others. Based on their recommendations the table has been improved to the level which got it sanctioned by ITSF last Sept through a secret voting process by ITSF Executive Committee members. The minor changes or improvements this time around based on the feedback of American players mostly relate to making the table even stronger or keeping production consistent. The only changes affecting playability would be the modified shape of the front of the foot for better back-pin set-up / shooting and a ball solution which should lie between the Tornado ball and the Warrior ball without being "slow". We certainly want to release the table with all important aspects of the play stabilized or locked down so as not to cause problems in the future. I appreciate your kind advice and will work to follow it. Dennis
here is what our own Gitablock says,
I think the Fireball is a marriage of the two tables. The Fireball is a Tornado with incredible control and bankability, it is a Warrior that has great speed, durability, and a light rod. And the rods are simply sick on this table and it is also possible to play without wraps on this table, very nice grippy handles.
Trust me on this one, the tornado masses will not have any trouble adjusting to this table. The adjustment time on this table is almost nil. Just ask anyone who has played on it. I played on this table three years ago in Austria and it has made VAST improvements since.
on the 3 man vs 1 man
you don't keep up with all the threads on this stuff or you would know about the 3 man vs 1 man is not a done deal and the owner is considering it but the take on it here in the US is pretty close to 50/50...the owner Denis is very open to a 3 man but it isn't clear "everyone" wants it
the foot has been redesigned specifically for backpins...also, i hav a table set up like th new Tor and it dosn't bank anywhere near as well as the old TS even though it is an improvement over the old Tor....I understand this table will bank better than Warrior which banked better than the improved Tor IMO
4. Foot design for backpin.
The key to designing the foot surfaces for pin shots is to have flat areas in the front and the back of the foot parallel to the playfield when the ball is pinned under the foot. For the front of the foot, this flat area near the toe tip should be designed so that it can help pin the ball easily without stubbing the ball when you want to release it for pass from the 5-rod or making a back-pin shot from the 3-rod. While this area should cover the whole foot width of 23 mm, it is tricky how wide vertically this area should be to balance the need to pin effectively and the right release point. Line or ridges patterns come into play when you want to design for brush, walking the ball, and shooting the ball without lifting it in the air. Horizontal lines will certainly bring the ball up in the air on hard shot or rollover, but they are best in walking the ball laterally. Vertical lines are best in keeping the ball to roll on the surface and will be less likely to stub the ball on release. We had a figure like this design 3 years ago but with dots on the surface and worked well for back-pin. A new foot for Fireball will be ready in a month with a combination of the good features of the above design aspects put in place.
and
3. Back-pin
The back-pin in my post mean the old-school TS style of shot with the man swung back to pin the ball with the tip of the toe front. I had a few back-pin shooters try out shot with different figures. I believe we have a solid idea about how to achieve a good back-pin handling. It will be reflected on the next Fireball figure ready in a month.
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Tick tick tick...
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Not easy finding a coin op for reasonable prices...or at least the prices listed in this thread. Me thinks some entrepreneurial types in my area (Atlanta) may be collecting them, refinishing them, and reselling them for a decent flip...only seeing these for $750+.
Not in a hurry, but may 'settle' for a home type table. Might be a wiser decision being that the table will be in an unheated/unairconditioned garage. Dunno how much of an affect that will have on a table.
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Frosty...do not despair
Honestly you might have to travel a bit to get the best table you can...I traveled 6 hours roundtrip to get my grey marble and 6 hours roundtrip to get my Bonzini.
I suggest searching craigslist in a 2 hour radius of your house and at each city or town just seach for 'foosball' under general search....You will need to be pretty diligent about it because when that Blondie or Grey Marble Coin-Op pops up for the right price there are going to be other people that have been looking for it.
Also just because someone asks 800.00 to 1000.00 does not mean that you cant contact them and ask what their bottom line is....I have negotiated many tables significantly down from their off their offer price.
Good Luck...I will pm you if i see anything that is looking good.
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This information was most helpful, thank you. I was hoping to avoid the expense of a coin-op, but I want one that will last. I've already tracked down a used one for about 900$ :)
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Not easy finding a coin op for reasonable prices...or at least the prices listed in this thread. Me thinks some entrepreneurial types in my area (Atlanta) may be collecting them, refinishing them, and reselling them for a decent flip...only seeing these for $750+.
Not in a hurry, but may 'settle' for a home type table. Might be a wiser decision being that the table will be in an unheated/unairconditioned garage. Dunno how much of an affect that will have on a table.
I keep my gray marble in an unheated, un-airconditioned garage, in humid Louisiana. BUT WHAT I DO HAVE is a dehumidifier which keeps the garage very dry and I have had no problems or signs of problems from moisture or temperature with the table.
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Near the top of the thread it is stated that:
Blonde – 1997 - 2001 This was the first color change at Valley ... it matched their ZD-7 pool table - $400-$550
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble and has become my least favorite of all the tables
Could someone please elaborate on the differences between the blonde and the other tables and why it would be considered someone's "least favorite".
Am I correct in assuming that the blonde is officially known as the Cyclone II?
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Others can tell you more about how the "blonde" plays but no, it isn't a Cyclone II. It is a Tornado coin-op.
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Bump
I am curious also as to why someone would consider the Blondie to be their least favorite Tornado. BBTuna stated that on his(her) "What table to buy" thread without any real elaboration aside from it plays differently than the Brown Marble. My apologies, I'm just about to potentially buy my first high end foosball table, the Blondie being said table, and that just kind of bugged me out. I'd appreciate it very much so if someone could elaborate on the reason or potential reasoning behind such an opinion. Thanks if you can.
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I did own one and I think they are splitting hairs....nothing wrong with blonde table, the condition is by far the most important factor
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Buy it if it isn't good shape and priced right, play it and never look back. I would bet if you did a blind table test with only the field showing nobody would know the difference.
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I realized that I never responded after getting answered. I did end up getting the blonde and it is a fantastic table. Other than my douchey roomie drunkenly bending a rod its been nothing but fantastic. Actually picked up a Firebal Coin Op since and both are incredible tables. I think I'm favoring the FB and the Ol' Ball and Chain still lovin' up on the Tor. :)
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Where can I get a T3000 coin op for $1175?
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You should start by setting up a Craigslist alert (through smartphone apps and 3rd party sites). To broaden your search I would recommend calling local bars who have Coin-Op Tornado's and asking for the owner's information - bars usually do not own the tables, they rent them. You can sometimes get good deals through these renters. If nothing else, they will have connections to other vendors.
As far as your price point is concerned, you may or may not be able to get one that cheap depending on your area. In Denver, they were $1600 used - minimum. I saw some on Craigslist in the Southeast for $800-900.
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So far the best I have found is Tournament Used 2014 coin op for $1575. Kind of considering it, though there isn't much wrong with my Storm II. The biggest thing for me is just the split bearing making ALL maintenance easier, and much simpler to change out.
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Mary sells used tournament T3000's after each tournament for $1300 I think. Might be a little more than that. Of course you have to travel to the tournament and have the means to bring the table back with you.
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The only tournament that is reasonably close to me is Vegas, and that boat has already sailed.
Is there any real difference in the T3000 vs T3000 coin-op except of course the coin op mech and about 20 pounds. I can add 20 pounds to my table if I need, then I don't have a coin op mech that runs the risk of breaking toddler skulls or kneecaps.
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The split cabinet is nice for a variety of reasons. I like it because it makes maintenance easy. You can clean the returns to keep foosballs in excellent condition. You can store extra parts and maintenance equipment inside. The weight - like you mentioned - provides stability. The coin-op (i.e. commercial) tables tend to have more durable parts such as heat-treated rods and split bearings.
As far as the mechanism is concerned, you can just remove it and have the balls roll into an area detached from all of the coin-operated parts. Frankly, I really like pushing the coin mech for a rack of balls. It makes a cool sound!
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My work has a non coin op T3000, and it is split cabinent. All the tournament level tables use split bearings, but do they really use different rods and have a different build quality?
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Fantastic posts! I just read the whole thread and appreciate so many of you posting such great information, especially that nuclear aircraft carrier of a fooser- BBTuna. The advice towards table purchases resonated with my own limited experiences playing mostly in the mid 90's (when apparently it was all going to hell).
A couple of weeks ago I just purchased something I have wanted for 20 years: an 80's brown marble Tornado coin-op. I refurbished it completely as necessary and it plays better than any table I ever played on! ...which now that I think of it, were mostly at beach bars. In fact, the "best" tables I ever played were tourney's... at bars. :)
Anyway, to revive the table I removed all men and cleaned them, put in all new half bearings (despite the note they rarely wear out, these felt shot to me), all new metal pins, silicone, a few new men, and a lot of time spent on the rods. Only the one goalie is bent a little – the rest are great. When I got it for $400, I thought a stole it. After reading this thread, I believe it was just a good deal for I have almost another $150 invested since, but I am still very happy. The playing surface is perfect, which was a key to the sell, but I was very lucky the goal posts are also in amazing shape because I didn't even look at that. I am going to lookout for Merkel rods though. Maybe I'll get lucky one day.
All in all, I am thrilled to get my skills back going again. I guess Alabama is still a place people play. There is a apparently a decent local tourney near me (Mobile, AL) which I have yet to go to. I am looking forward to playing high caliber players again. The few friends I have schooled since getting the table aren't really the match I am hoping for.
I write because there was one thing I found that REALLY helped in refurbishing my table I didn't read here. As I was concerned about messing up a 30 year old surface, I didn't want to use anything harsh. I found the Mr. Clean magic eraser was truly magic in making the surface look new with only water. It took 3 sponges, but it looks perfect.
Second, I use some metal polishing to make the feet look probably better than they ever did. I will post pics soon.
PS. anyone near Mobile, there’s free beer in my garage if you can get past my 5 man. ;)
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I guess this will sound like a dumb question, but when viewing a used table, what is a reasonably fast method to verify that the surface is totally flat and not warped?
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I would also love to know the best way to assess the surface. In my experience, it is fairly uncommon to view a used table in a good "level" circumstance; you need to set the expectation to level it before you arrive or that you will do it as part of the viewing. Usually the tables are in some kind of storage, disuse, on soft carpet, or in a neglected situation if the price is "a deal".
When I purchased my last table I had to insist on taking the time to level the table using a 36" carpenters level on the playing surface. I leveled cross wise on each corner, then checked various positions around the field with a "bubble level" (available on this site). As a following test I wiped the surface clean and dried it , then rolled a brand new seamless slick ball slowly across the surface in various directions watching for significant wander and irregular rolling speed. The final and most common test is tic tacs long and short, fast and slow. Paying particular attention to ball wander around each forward center man and each goalie is important; these cause the most frustration and will give your table a reputation.
Hopefully a tournament director can chime in on this... I would love to know a better way???
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Request to sticky this thread please... This question / price questions come up a lot...
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Have the prices shifted at all in the current market? I'm looking for a used Cyclone and can't find anything in the New England (Boston) area for under $500. Was hoping to find one in the $300 range, and I've been patiently hawking every Craigslist ad in the area for 4 months.
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Tornado tables hold their value incredibly well, so there won't be a huge shift in price...
Typically the Cyclone models weren't bought by Tournament players, so someone who bought the table new for $1200 isn't likely to drop to $300 any time soon either...
Keep looking though, best of luck.
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I only see mention of the "Product of Valley" addition under the playfield logo in reference to the 30th Anniversary model. I have a friend who has a very fast, early 2000's Cherry laminate model with the "Product of Valley" playfield logo and I was wondering if anyone would know if this was a normal configuration that just isn't covered in this post or if his is an oddball. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
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I only see mention of the "Product of Valley" addition under the playfield logo in reference to the 30th Anniversary model. I have a friend who has a very fast, early 2000's Cherry laminate model with the "Product of Valley" playfield logo and I was wondering if anyone would know if this was a normal configuration that just isn't covered in this post or if his is an oddball. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
A few rough dates of "YEARs and OWNERs of the Tornado Table that would reflect logos/markings/badges"...
American Style Foosball - Texas, Tornado, Dynamo, VDLP ...
1970's Bob Hayes and Bob Furr engineer the Texas Table - The American Style Table is Born
1977 Ed McCloud acquires this Texas business & launches/rebrands as Tornado Table Soccer
1993 Valley acquires Tornado
1998 VDLP - Valley-Dynamo "merge" to create Limited Partnership
2003 Brunswick acquires VDLP
2009 Champion Shuffleboard acquires Valley-Dynamo from Brunswick