Topic: Foosball in the 70's

[Old Meister]

What wonderful time! We were introduced to foosball with the Italian tables that had hard thin men and hard balls. To play well you had to learn how to control the ball through touch. You couldn't pin th ball to control it, you had to do it by touch, everything was with in the range going around the ball with your man. Reversal shots were lightening fast, guys could dance that ball like you wouldn't believe before deciding what direction to take it. Push or pull kicks were uses but pulls and pushes were the rule.
Then came the German tables, Deutcher Meisters. Soft men and soft balls, perfect control but slow. What a chess match, foosball as it should be. Banks worked, everything worked, but it had to be done well. Then came Tournament Soccer tables. They had their green top tables which were somewhere in between the Italian and German tables but then they went to their blue tops which were much like the German tables in play. If that was the table that was used from that time on it would have been a good thing. All shots were possible on that table. Then in a move to make money they made the Brown top TS table. Big handles, light rods, hard men and soft balls. Palm shots became THE shot(they suck) and the game degressed in my opinion. Soon computer games killed the trend and many of us who played for years found the sport we loved was dying. That is how it was for me. How I would love to play as I used to, to show you kids some shots that maybe you never saw before. Imagine a pass to the front and a pin followed by a squeeze pull in the middle that squirts to the far man and is angled in all in fraction of a second. That's what I'm talking bout.

[marty]

well put old meister well put  them where the days

[chance37]

I can see your side to it, but all sports over time change and people are gonna always look back at the good ole days when there was no 3 pointer, wooden tennis racquets, golf clubs made of wood, etc. etc.  I like the way the sport is because being a beginner, I want to learn all of the shots I've seen from open handed to pushs, to pulls, to rollovers, you name it.  I think the diversity is what makes the game so great, but I think its the unwillingness to change with tthe sport that has hindered it over the years as well.  MAybe I'm just the type of person that likes to see a tennis ball served 150 mph, or a baseball hit so far, or even Lebron nail seven 3 pointers in a game...but then again im younger than most of you and thats my opinion....

happy foosin

[gcp]

Old Meister, your post brought a smile to my face! Only today I was talking to my wife, who is 13 years my junior, about how I learned to play foosball in the early 70s in Greece. The tables must have been the Italian kind because they were much larger in size than the current "toy" versions, the players were huge in comparison, and our games were thus fast and furious. Oh how I now long to find one of those tables here in the states so I can buy it. I remember the sweat poring down my body, from hours of play, and would love to experience this sensation once more! As much as I try to explain the differences of yesteryear from what the game is today, to my younger friend players, I am afraid my words always fail to make my point so showing them what/how we played back then is the only viable option.

Any info on how I can get a hold of this type table will be very much appreciated!

gcp

[Rios]

gotta agree with Chance here...

how many people would watch the NBA if there were no slam dunks or no 3-pointers???  absolutly NOBODY!!!!!!  All sports have evolved, it is just the way it is.  Try playing baseball these days with a 5-fingered glove!  The only way to get more people to want to play and possibly watch foosball is to make it fast, exciting, and easy to learn.  Long live the Snake, tic-tacs, Left hooks, sling shots, and the AIREAL!!!!!!


thomas rios

[Old Meister]

Rios, maybe the terminology is what has changed but other than the snake, we did all those shots. I won't say we did them better or worse but I'd like to think we had better players due to the fact that foosball was hot in those days and we had ten times the number of players as today, maybe way more than that.You could find action in every little town not to mention tournaments. I used to travel all over the state of Wisconsin just to play someone who was rumored to be good and they'd come to play me. Just out of curiosity the tic-tac shot, are you referring to from the center to the near man and then out to the center long? Try  doing that shot but go from center to the near man then tap to the far man and angle in, done fast like the tic-tac. I guess I need to get somewhere where the game is being played again and see if my hands can keep up to what I remember.
Gcp, I heard of those tables but never got the chance to play on one. I always wanted to go to Europe and play. I heard stories of old farts playing that were as cagey as they come and had developed their touch to an art form.
Chance 37, while you compare the changes to other sports I compare it to to music. Everything you do today came from before and some was better and some wasn't. There is another memory, playing some local 'pro' while listening to "Pinball Wizard". To bad for him if that was playing, you had to be there,,,

[bbtuna]

I didn't take that Old Meister was saying that the 70's was better than now, he was just remembering the good old days and talking about some of the unique things about the tables he played on in the 70s...it is really hard to compare the different eras but one thing is certain, you could do some shots on TS (and some of the other tables mentioned) that you can not do on Tornado (not consistently anyway). 

Examples:  On TS you could do a pushkick (or pullkick) slice from the same spot to any one of (at least) 3 locations and do it as consistently - as consistently as a good rollover shooter can do a long pullside roller.  Same with banks, they weren't mindless open-handed whacks at the ball hoping for the best...a person could hit banks with the same precision as pull shooter today can shoot the straight, or the 2 hole, or the spray or squared off long.  Goalies could hit a bank from many more spots than I can name and they could hit them accurately inside, outside, and straight from that same position.  They could even hit different holes off the bank...usually they would shoot a tight one hole but not always and whatever they shot was by their own choice.

This isn't to take anything away from the Tornado, it is a great table for a lot of reasons but it just isn't built to allow consistent angles...this is probably Tornado's biggest shortcoming (that and the white strip down the side has just a little too much angle which makes the ball jump up after it hits the tape).

[gcp]

Matter of fact, after cruising the net yesterday I was sadly disappointed but did came up with a few possible options, for my purchase, but have no idea which direction to lean toward. All I can say is I'd like for the table to be as large as possible (playing field of course, and the players something other than plastic...wood players with a thin bottom surface area provided such incredible control/maneuverability). I spoke to a Greek friend of mine and he will call his cousin in Greece in order to investigate if we can locate an older table so I can import it. Money's not an issue so if one becomes available it's a done deal but in the mean time can you please provide info on the below:

Rene Pierre Zinc Foosball Table (what's the metal players like)?
Great American Action Foosball Table (hate its looks but it seems to have the largest playing field).

Also what's the deal with the telescopic rods now days? Are they as responsive as the old fashion spring rods? If one is stupid enough to be hit by one they deserve to be hit, if you ask me, but there's always the children issue....Also, 3 goalie tables, and bank shots? This game is supposed to imitate real football and I've yet to see 3 goalies under the goals or bank shots being possible. For example, in the "old days" we could only score with the center forward from the front line (middle forward player) because with the side men scoring was no challenge. Old Meister, yes, some of the guys playing when I was learning were beyond  description, you'd have to see it to believe what they could do on a football table. Music was a great analogy BTW 

Please feel free to suggest other table alternatives (wood players would be preferable to me). All recommendations will be appreciated!

Thanks,
gcp

[Old Meister]

Gcp, unfortunately table style has always been about cornering the market. While that made for real improvements early in the foosball history, nowadays it seems to revolve around a certain group of shots and a standardized passing sequence. In short the game is limited. While the quality of the tables is obvious it was the influx of a select few who caused the direction of today's game. I guess that anyone with the resources that could develop the game would probably change it to enhance it in ways to support their own perception of what the game should be. Myself, I would go for a table with handling somewhat like the TS blue top table with balanced men like tornado's but with feet shaped like TS. I'd go with a medium weighted rod with Tornado grips. I'd also go back to one goalie and ramps and a flat surface at the side rails(banks). To find one of those big tables would be a lot of fun, I've never seen one and would love to play on one. But the real point to you, gcp, is that you most likely are going to have to accept getting a conventional table unless you search overseas. Good luck on that.

[bbtuna]

gcp,

go to the ITSF website (link below) and see the 5 recognized tables...they all play very different and you can find Bonzini here in the US...much much different style...I understand Tech Ball is the closest to the old TS (brown top)

all 4 tables have more ball control than Tornado...Bonzini has the most...they used to use cork balls, I don't know if that is true any more

but one thing the International competition has proven, people can get really really good on any model...all models have one or more shortcomings...tornado's is banks and angles and some would say ball control...Tornado is clearly the best made table (or used to be, I can't vouch for the most recent release) - best made means most durable, most sound, most level, truest round on balls, etc...build quality

one last note, none of them are cheap...

http://www.table-soccer.org/

[gcp]

bbtuna,

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide me your inputs! I've derived at the some conclusion, in that I would probably be happiest with a European style football table. BTW, I found the link you provided yesterday and it was a pleasure to watch its video vignettes. I saw the Italian tables listed, to include Rene Pierre's Zinc table which seems to be the closest to what I am looking for. But it will be very hard for me to decide without playing all of these tables, quite a difficult task in Northern Alabama 

In saying that, I played a Tornado Whirlwind a couple of days ago and even though it's a departure from what I'm used to, I was pleasantly surprised with the somewhat decent playability, and the levelness of the table. I found it to be a somewhat slow table, with many dead spots, but then again I was trying different shots all on my own....The sound was there and the players, albeit plastic, could perform decently.

You are so correct, people can get good at any table, I guess I am allowing my nostalgia to get the best of me.

Thanks again,
gcp

[bbtuna]

gcp,

You have to decide what you want out of your time spent on your home table...if you decide you want to play locally at DYP's or at Regional/National tournaments in the states 99% of those are all on Tornado and the rest are very regionally located on Bonzini.  If you buy something other than Tornado, you will put in practice time for a table you will never play competitively on.

If on the other hand you don't care about that and you just want to improve your skills for your own satisfaction and you want to play for fun, then buy any table that suits you.  Just an FYI on Rene, I have heard more bad things about that table than the others and I am pretty certain world wide they have the smallest player base.

The advantages to Tornado is that the table surface is always level (up to the latest release but I think they will get this straightened out).  And they have the best ball...it starts and stays true round much better than any other ball.  The down side is that the ball is on the heavy side and it doesn't provide as much control because it is a harder material.

Problem with ball choice is the softer it gets (softer means more control) the harder it is to get it round, to keep it round, to keep it from getting burs, and to make it last any length of time. 

When the ITSF was formed, Tornado was (and still is) pretty much the standard by which the other tables were measured (in terms of build quality, level playing surface, ball, and reliability of rods and men).  The other tables have been requested (mandated) to make changes to bring them closer to that standard.  I think eventually the ITSF will mandate tables/balls meet detailed requirements to be considered an international competition table.  This is already happening it just isn't as controlled as I think it will be.

With all that said, each of those other tables are famous from a Tornado player's point of view to be badly built.  Meaning, one or more of each of the follwoing:
* Balls that don't roll straight all the time
* Table surface isn't level
* Rods are bad - various issues including flimsy/telescoping on one
* Crazy wide side strip (Garlando)
* Overall table is too lite
* One or no serving holes (really dumb to those of us who have grown up serving from a serving hole)

One thing they all seem to have in common is lots of ball control.  Because of this, and the level table issues, the European game is centered much more around pinned balls (lots of movement, not just a rocking or even a "walking" snake).  You can see this if you watch some video which includes international play.

[bbtuna]

I think it is cool that each of the tables has a unique personality and I understand homers defending the benefits of each table

however, like pretty much every other sport, I think there should be standards and/or tolerances like playfield (size, approved materials, level), rod specs (length, diameter, weight, material), Men (foot size/shape, height from table, distance from each other) , side strip (size, etc) , bumpers, handles (size, material, changeable, etc) , ball (length, diameter, weight, material), table height/weight (and other dimensions), score/game/time out posts, and finally goal size (height, width, shape).

The trick is to do this and still allow each table to retain its own unique personality...I think it can be done if the key requirements provide the right tolerances and/or variables (like available material for man, table surface, and balls).

I am totally cool with the idea of the best player being determined by who can play best on a variety of tables…Fredrico has shown that he is the best (ever in my opinion) because he dominates on every table and has for 10 years or more.

I just think the players should NOT have to deal with things like the table surface not being level or the ball not being round or widely varying goal sizes or table weight.  Lets build solid heavy tables (at least 400 pounds) for tournament competition that are level and have balls that stay round or are replaced often enough not to matter.  I also think the size of the goal should be consistent…could you imagine football uprights each being a different width, or soccer goals, or hockey, or basket ball, or any well known sport where goals are scored?

No, there should be standards.

[gcp]

bbtuna,

You my friend are a gentleman, and a real table soccer/foosball aficionado, judging from your well thought out emails. Thank you very much for your valuable inputs!!

After doing a bit of my own reading the past couple of days I decided on the Tornado tables, either the Storm II or the Cyclone II. I've got 'till tomorrow 11:00pm to pick one (the area dealer will be coming to my home town for a tournament and can deliver a table to me free of charge). I am leaning toward the Cyclone because 1) I like its looks better and 2) I was told that it is closer to the commercial Tornado models (TT2000). But he had nothing but good things to say about the Storm, and actually recommended it to me over the Cyclone for home use. My question is, which would you prefer, or should I go for the TT2000? Unfortunately the dealer does not have a TT in stock so would it be worth waiting for?

Thanks,
gcp

[chance37]

spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a 2000.....the split cabinet alone makes it worth it for moving etc......