Topic: Palm shots on Tornados

[Old Meister]

I'm having fits with my timing on the Tornado table seeing how I played on TS tables mostly until I gave it up 20 some years ago. I know rust plays into it but the only push shot that I can do is a palm shot. I can't get a wrist shot push to go at all. I do practice strokes but it seems that without the resistance of a heavier bar that there isn't any whip to it. I can smoke a palm shot about 20% of the time and that is a start but it really hurts that the wrist shot doesn't seem possible as an effective shot. I notice angles are much more difficult too. I wonder why they don't round the sides of the feet to make more shots possible and maybe shorten them also. Just ranting through my frustrations,,,

[bbtuna]

hang in there, there is much much much more rust than you know...I came off a 25 year lay off and it has taken me many more times longer than I expected to come back

Tornado does not lack for whip and power with wrist shots that I can assure you, so it is a mechanical thing so just keep at it and it will come around

if you could see how hard I can hit the ball at 50 you would know

plus, go watch video on you tube if you are still unsure or you can just totally trust me on this one

the hollow vs solid rod thing is mainly in your head...at the peak of my TS days I went to a Dynamo tourny playing on hollow rods for the first time and it was weird and took some adjusting but not more than the one tournament

just trust your body is capable of making the changes needed and evaluate if you personally have the power left in you...I have seen players my age, well from 40's and up, some who don't seem to loose much speed or power and others who seem to loose a lot not having to do anything with the table...you will want to get a grip on which you are because if you are a person who slows down, this may be impacting you as much as anything

have fun on the journey back, I have

[Old Meister]

You're killing me,bbtuna. I don't think it's about slowing down but more about a  change in mechanics. Without the ball I can make the motion with the speed and shape it always was but I leave the ball behind or something with the ball. But I agree with you, time and practice will fix it. Momma surprised me by wanting to play. She always played a finesse 3/4 speed style and while she noticed alot of the same things as I about the changes, she did do pretty good. My goal is to get my game back to where I have my weapons then maybe sometime in the future I can run into some of you guys without embarassing myself.

[bbtuna]

sorry OM, I was just stating fact, it is nothing personal...we have a older pro-master in our area who slowed down, way way down, a number of years ago and his lateral speed and pop on the ball are, well, lets just say you could set up camp, build a fire, and roast some marshmellows before he moved from one side of the goal to the other...however, he is a very fiesty and tricky player and still beats all of us 90% of the time

you may not fall into that category and good for you if you haven't however a lot of people fall into what I call the American Idol syndrom...you know on AI when they do the intial interviews and these people come in who think they have a shot and they can NOT sing a note but they think they are really good...I find this true in almost every area of life...very difficult to self-evaluate accurately...if you dare, you should ask someone who you trust understands foosball to evaluate you...or not

anyway, if this isn't an issue for you, then terrific...part of the evaluation process for your game as it comes back is that 20 years does more to your physical game than you may think at least it did for me and others I have seen try and come back...mentally I remembered things but my body could not cash the check...in some ways I was amazed at what I could still do but there was so much lost it was overwhelming

with this in mind, I think the issues you are facing are more driven by your layoff than the rod style or weight...your body should have made adjustments by now if it was really just the weight or density difference in the rod...it hasn't made that transition because there are so many things it is trying to rediscover

well, this is all just my opinion based on my experience and others, yours of course could be totally unique but I doubt it...as time goes on, I would love to hear how you feel about my evaluation...either way, good to have you back and again, have fun on the Journey, it can be rewarding but like the first time around, it won't come without hard work

[grandmaster]

Trust me on this one- buy a couple of TS two rows. Put them on the Tornado, just for a while. They are already drilled and tapped for wooden handle usage. For a perfect fit with the men they will have to be reamed out about 10 thou, the difference between .620" and .630". Then just shoot from goalie for a while. Then try the three row. Go back and forth between the solids and the hollows, it will ease the transititon to Tornado a bit. The most signifignant change is not the rod, but the shape of the foot of the man. Study the shape, as it acts in practice as TWO different feet whereas TS (and Others) act or feel like ONE. The foot of a Tornado man comes straight down as normal but then is curved like an elf's slipper. It is this curve you must come to know like the back of your hand in order to aim your shots. It took me about six months. See you in May? Across the Table and Welcome Back OM.

[bbtuna]

if you keep moving back and forth from solid rod to hollow rod on Tornado then yes, you will find yourself over pulling and such on the hollow rods...however, if you hadn't played on a solid rod in 20 years and started back up with hollow only, it should not throw you off for an extend period of time

[grandmaster]

I disagee. I know better. Better to agree to disagree than to be disagreeable. Since I'm the only one on the planet with extensive experience with this issue from a personal viewpoint I am entitled to believe that solid rod Tornado foosball has a benificial effect on the hollow rod game. I haven't found one person who likes solid rod Tornado foosball besides me. OM are you there? I dare you to try it, if only for a while. I think I'll start throwing the bare knuckle solid rod championship once a year and see who shows up. Charles, you are the fisrt to be invited!
Happy Foosing,
Oly 605-391-5958

[EDGEER]

Ok you old farts.  Who are you guys and whats your names?  Have I ever met any of you?  GM is exactly right about the round on the foot.  For the life of me I play hell catching a ball off the face of the man.  That round part has very little sweet spot where you can pin the ball.

It took me 3 yrs to become competitive again after a 17 yr lay off.  I think it is harder to relearn and remove old technique than it is to start from scratch.  I keep try *** that use to work but doesn't any more

[bbtuna]

Ed,

I am with you on come back thing, that is about as long as I have been back after 25 years off however I am very glad I had the background I did it has helped but relearning and learning new as been a bear...I would hate to start at my age and try and learn everything from scratch with no history or physical background to draw on...

I am better now than in the old days in every way I can measure except my lateral speed isn't quite as good and I can't get the same kind of consistency I did when I was young...i can physically do everything I did then, and more, but can't execute the basic stuff 18-19 times out of 20 like I could when I was young...I kept thinking this would come around but I have given up on that

the curve on the mans foot is enough to want to make me kill somebody...I shoot a backpin seriously and it is a pain to deal with it all the time...plus, it is the reason you can't hit accurate angles for kicks and banks....for the life of me, I can't understand why Tornado won't redeisgn the foot to flaten that surface...I guess they would have an initial cost for a mold but after that, it would not cost them a thing

the other thing I don't understand why they don't change, and this would not cost them anything extra at all, is to make the strip on the side a little thinner...like Mark Murrell does when he replaces them...still works to keep the ball off the wall but doesn't make the ball jump into the air

these two very minor changes would revolutionize the game on Tornado

[grandmaster]

"Who ARE those guys?" Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, circa 1969. Charles, again I disagree. The main reason bank shots fly up is NOT the side strips. Pool shooters ( I am one) shoot the cue ball down into the slate in order to "jump shoot" over a ball that is in the way of the object ball. Same action on a lot of Tornado bank shots. TS tables had a 3/8" Masonite flexible playfiield kinda like a Pro wrestling or boxing floor. The ball does not fly as easily on this kind of a set up. Go to a pool hall and find a Pro and have him demonstrate the jump.The inflexible 3/4" MDF playfield is the main reason the ball flies up. It plays a lot like slate. The shape of the foot is another thing. It resluts in two completely separate aim points. I discovered this after  shots where I thought to myself " I diddn't aim that there, why does it go there?" the answer is that Tornado is an idiosycratic table not designed for bank shots. Even if they would fly lower, the extra men on the goalie intercept a lot of them. Not to mention the lack of solid rods? With practice a guy can reasonably expect to hit a few banks. My favorite is with the end guys on the five row. Seems to be open on the goalie a lot by going between the end man and the goalie instesd of being blocked by the end guy. Once in awhile you get a wide open 2 row bank. My rule on Tornado is hit the bank shots half hard if at all. That way the ball stays low and has a better chance of being on goal. But why bother on Tornado, I just shoot the push hard as I want from back and slop it in.

[bbtuna]

GM,

Mark Murrell has substituted the current strip on his custom tables with a thinner strip and has all but eliminated the ball jumping off the table so this really isn't a debate or opinion, it is a fact - he made NO modifcations to the playfield, the playing figure's foot design, the ball, or the rod type

a slicker ball will help keep the ball down...my ability to hit accurate banks which stay down on the table increase with slicker balls...Todd Loffredo has a good explanation for this after abusing people with banks last year at one of the tournaments which had "slick" balls...fuzzy the ball, the more the "jump"

Early tornado with hollow rods and hard thick surface were able to do banks until they changed the foot design which was done by someone inside who wanted to eliminate banks

Dynamo's I played on in the late 70's were also hollow rods, hard surface (much harder than Tornado today), and you could do banks with that table as well

I made the ball jump using solid rods on TS and can very easily make a ball just from my 2 and hit the 3 rod directly in front of me or the 5 rod with my left hand and hit the 5 rod accross from me but this has more to do with technique than the table

with all that said, I will admit, it was much easier to make the Dynamo table ball jump up than it was the TS

[bbtuna]

by the way, Johnny Lott likes the solid rod design as well and on the Medalist table he designed and on the one he is working on now, both use a solid rod...slightly smaller diamiter than the Tornado and they weigh almost the same amount

[grandmaster]

Go figure, Johnny Lott is leading the way in foosball once again. I still disagree on the side strip issue and I have made quite a few of them myself, 11/16" from white vertical grade laminate. In addition I have built 9 Tornado clones by hand from scratch all with 3/4" MDF playfields and non of them bank particularly well. As for the Dynamo brown top with the bent up corners, they did bank well as it was the thinner playfield, also the man was the first assymetrical foot but it was straight, not curved on front like the Tornado modern. If anyone will ever perfect a players' table it will be JL. Early Tornado 11 man tables were tempered glass and very stiff also and not known for the bank. I'm sicking to my guns on this, a flexible playfield makes a good banking table, along with the right foot and ball. I know others have tried to improve Tornado bank shooting but the side strips are minor issue in the overall disscusion. Somebody get Johnny on the forum and see what he says?

[Old Meister]

Bbtuna's telling me I might be slowmo in my old age (53) and Gm tells me to mix it up heavy and light rods. Well fellers, I'm not built to be slow. And I view the Tornados as a problem to be solved. I just don't like the fact that they(Tornado) made these tables to cater to one shot, the snake, and left the rest of it so so for other shots. So I will get some of what I did back and I will have to learn the snake. I will because I never saw a shot I didn't master. I lived for that and would throw the kitchen sink at you in a game. I really appreciate the advice though. Bbtuna, you lit a fire under me inferring I might have that American idol thing going on. I made the best player I ever met eat a shot I can still do on this table, it's just harder and less reliable, for now. GM, Yes I would like to try heavy rods but then again would I then not be learning these tables?  Really guys I do totally appreciate your taking time to give me your thoughts and when I'm ready I'd dearly love to play you.

[bbtuna]

OM,

any time is the right time...play, play, play...it doesn't matter who or where you are at in your redevelopment...I love playing people who love to play at any level, beginner or pro-master...maybe someday we will all meet and we could whack the ball around, trash talk, and have a few drinks