Topic: PASSING -best pass, practice, strategy

[bbtuna]

this is in response to Chance who was asking about improving his stick series effectiveness....these are some excerpts from Dave Gummerson who by most accounts, has the best stick series of all time

I will preface this with one comment...improving your 5 is about execution style and choice AND reading the defense...I work toward not being predicatable, raceable, or readable and at the same time I am trying to improve my ability to read and then choose...it takes a lot of work to know what is or is not working, bad read, bad choice, bad execution?

anyway, here is Gummy

GUMMY ON THE 5 PART ONE

David Gummerson 10/17/2007

I've pretty much experimented and used almost every different pass and series over the years and feel that the best and most effective approach by far is a hybrid of both a stick and brush series where you tailor how heavy you lean on each type of pass by a combination of table conditions and opponent. Obviously this approach takes the highest amount of both experience and practice if you want to be effective. I agree that the brush is easiest to learn initially and is a great series to develop as new player. The stick series is more table sensitive in most cases and requires quite a bit more practice to become proficient at.

[bbtuna]

GUMMY ON THE 5 PART 2

Dave Gummerson 02/01/2007


Here are a couple of tips on 5 man passing. These are some things to think about that may help you develop a better passing series. These are in no particular order but, just some things you may want to consider.

1. Do you have a plan each match depending on who your playing. Is it someone you have played a lot in the past that knows your game well?  Do they know what you favor and what your strengths and weaknesses are?  If it's someone you've only played once or twice do you remember what you had success or didn't have success with last time?  You can bet that they'll be trying to do the same thing. Especially if it was recent.  If you've never played them before your going to want to kind of feel the situation out by starting with your strengths and making adjustments from there.

2. Pay attention to how they react to certain movements/fakes, etc throughout the match.  You might find something that they really fall for and will want to maybe save that for a big point or points when you really need it.  You may also choose to just beat them over the head with it until they figure it out.  Sometimes they never do which leads me to my next point.

3. Don't make adjustments just for the sake of making adjustments. Make them adjust to you. Todd Loffredo said once. " You know what the best adjustment is sometimes?" "No adjustment!"
You would be surprised at the number of players killing someone with a certain shot or pass or Defense and then all of a sudden they are doing something else. You ask them about it and they say something like "I didn't want to get too predictable" or "I was worried they were going to start block that pass or shot". I can't stress enough not to adjust unless the situation dictates it. Duh! Right!

4. Have options to your passing series that blend well with each other and look the same but, have different results.  It could be as simple as varying the speed of the toss on a brush pass or the spot you brush it at. Make sure you can set them up the same and have the same comfort level with all of them.  If you can't perform it at a high consistency level it's a worthless pass. Also, don't use the pass unless the situation dictates it. It's important to understand why your doing a certain pass.  When is this option effective and when is it not?  If your just randomly throwing in options to mix things up then that’s all your results will be. Random.

5. Most important of all on the five row is ball control.   Whether you move the ball around a lot, fast or slow you need to have superior ball control.  It dictates your ability to get the ball where you want it the first time and not have to struggle to find the "sweet spot.”  It also helps your confidence level.  This is especially important on big points where you need to be able to do everything as if it were second nature. If you have to think about execution your going to have problems under pressure.

There is a lot more to five row passing but, this is a start and hopefully this will help some people out.  The 5 row is the single most important rod on the table in my opinion so, I recommend doubling or even tripling your practice on this rod compared to any other.

[bbtuna]

GUMMY ON THE 5 PART 3

Gummy is answering a question about having a plan....

The plan would be based on the individual partially if you've had experience playing them.  Let me give you an example. I'm about to play player X who I've played a few times before but, not a lot.  I remember that he didn't adjust well to a regular drag lane pass.  He would chase to the wall any time I did that pass leaving that particular lane pass wide open.  He was quick at getting to the wall and was able to react well to a regular wall pass.  I remember trying hesitation walls on him early in the match and they were not working because any motion to the wall would cause him to collapse on the wall.  I also noticed that if I tossed it over slowly to do a brush pass he would hang out in the grey area until he thought I was going to pass and then commit to one. Usually going for the lane.  I remember doing a few of those fake brushes where I kick it out to the second man and go right back to the wall all in one motion.  When I did that pass he bit on it hard and chased as if I was going brush up.

So my plan is basically I'm going to start out and establish the drag lane pass.  If he didn't learn anything last time I should be able to get away with several of those in a row.  After a while (I can usually tell the right time) I would start trying a few hesitation walls and mix in brush passes as well.  I want to establish the brush pass as well to see if he still has a tendency to cover the up more then then down when I hover and go into the motion of a brush.  I also check to see if when I kick it back out from my first guy does he chase out and away from the wall leaving the quick reverse wall. If so that would be my ace for when I really need a pass. So in summary, I beat him over the head with the drag lane early in the match.  Mix in some brush passes to keep him off balance and establish that pass and see if he still favors blocking the up and also to set him up for the Ace when I need it.

Of course all the time paying attention to what is going on and adjusting my thinking where needed.

I could go through this whole scenario with each player I face.  If I've never played them or scouted them then you learn on the fly which is why PM's really prefer 3 out of 5 matches.

As far as patterns go.  It's really not so much about patterns as it is picking up on subtle little things your opponent does or doesn't do. If you are too much into patterns then it's all too random.  It's hard to totally explain but, you definitely don't want the mind set that I'm going to do 3 ups then 1 down and back to the up and so fourth because you really are just making random decisions then.

As far as things that catch a defender off guard.  I could go on for quite some time but, lets just say it's about changing the variables.  A lot of players are way too predictable in that they toss the ball over at the same speed all the time or pass in the same spot (Do their up from the same spot).  By using the same speed toss several times in a row and then suddenly tossing it over much faster or slower can really mess people up.  They may be trying to show you a certain hole and then they are going to take it away right before you pass.  By changing up your toss speed you can catch them off guard and hit the hole they are showing you before they are ready to cover it up.  You can also cause them to sort of tip their hand if you slow the toss down.  They will move into the hole they were baiting you for too quickly and expose their intentions leaving the other option wide open.  It's all very subtle and takes a lot of practice but, hopefully you get the idea.

[bbtuna]

GUMMY ON THE 5 PART 4

The key to the stick pass(or lane/wall) series is to:
1) Make sure the wall pass is not raceable.
2) Make sure you can set both the lane and wall passes up and work them in so they look the same.
3) Be able to work both options into your series several different ways and with different "fakes" but, don't use fakes just to use them. Any fake, hesitation, hover should have a definate purpose to it. I see alot of players just randomly use fakes and end up defeating the entire purpose by getting the defense to dive right into the hole they're passing to which brings up my next point.

4) Everybody reacts differently. Some players will dive to the lane like clock work everytime you throw a hesitation in before your wall pass. Others it freezes on the wall. Still others will not react at all. Sometimes I use fakes, hesitations, etc to see how the defender will react and, yes it is correct that you can use certain passes to set up another pass for later in a game or match.

Sometimes I will work the ball on my five and observe a certain way a defender will react when I do a certain fake or a certain toss to another man. I may do this manuever 2,3 or more times during a game or match to see if they react the same each time but not use the pass I see them leaving until a crucial time in the match. Other times I might keep abusing the defense with the same pass until they start blocking it or even pass to a certain hole knowing they're probably going to block it but I'm isolating their defense by making them commit a man to it and opening up my other options. However, this last strategy is not wise if your behind and depending on who your playing. There are some players that are better at blocking and steeling 5 bar passes than others. If a particular player has trouble blocking your wall pass without it bouncing right back to you then exploit that as much as you can.

On the lane pass there are two distinctly different ways to execute this pass.

1) Drag the ball to the lane.
2) Execute the lane off a Tic Tac. In other words, let the ball seperate from the man before hitting the lane.

 You should be able to effectively use both styles because different players tend to have a more difficult time with one than the other. Plus they play off of one another well and are key to setting up your wall options. The most important thing to remember is to Keep It Simple! All the options, fakes, etc, might be appealing and look good but there needs to be a purpose for them. If your randomly just throwing in different fakes & options your doing nothing more than guessing and your success will be very inconsistent. The passes you use should have a natural progression. In other words: I tried A and the defense reacted a certain way so I'll use fake, toss, pass B and see how the defense responds. So you see it's simple yet not so simple. Very hard to explain over the internet but I hope it helped someone.

[bbtuna]

all those who are looking for good information on improving your game, don't give up on this thread...you all have input, don't be put off by pro-master quotes...in addition, i have more stuff on the subject of the 5 bar but I have to know that people are interested becasue it takes some work on my side to get it together, edit, etc before posting - it is good for me too because I get to review the material and prepare it for a future home some place else but all the same, this thread needs your input too

[chance37]

I feel as if im learning something everyday......its amazing at what levels this game is played....Ive read those quotes from gummy 10 times and again today for the first time in a few weeks....Sunday I had 2 great players over that own the tourament scene around here when there is a bring....And I havent got a chance to watch the tape yet....but ive been trying to lean what I saw...Last nght at a tourney a semi pro encuraged me to keep brushing and brushing..which ive just started to really focus on....2 of the 3 of them brush really good...but very differnet styles of brush.....I have made it a goal to get a good brush series established within the next month and im just working on it until i get it....Gotta get a better hover that is more i guess deceiving....One of the guys told me to work on my hover and have more of a purpose to it....Im off of work today and have been practiced it for an hour and now im taking a break gonna watch some videos of rico, atha, and try to make something click in my head..

You know the feeling you get when you hit it just right after trying for a while.....I stopped and said ***....do it again....nope.....try try again......gotta keep practicing....

[bbtuna]

on the hover, the best thing I have ever seen for a true hover is a slow roll hover - drag the ball so you have a slow roll, get over the ball as far out in the lane as you can, and then follow it down - to stay over the ball but don't juke your man back and forth let it be totally stationary straight on top of the ball as it follows it slowly to the wall - this is much harder to do than it sounds

-then make your first move your only move (most of the time)...with or without fake...this can be good for like 90% of your passes if you throw in with a few stick/hard wall options and off the wall options (brush back to wall or lane)

After that, you can learn to "hover" with your man just to one side or the other of the ball and work your moves from there

and then starting with your man in front orbehind, but not over the ball at all, and start your moves from there...

if you watch Terry Moore, he does a lot of the second and third versions and doesn't do the straight hover slow roll very often

[chance37]

gotcha......ill give her a whirl

[chance37]

tuna thanks for the advice....ive been messing around with it and damn i should focus on what i watch because the guys that are good at it do it that way,,,,most of them.....

I ve been drilling a drag stick in the lane and wall....I dont know whythe hell i havent been doing that all alog...Ive just been a tic tac stick passer and never tried just setting it up and drag wall or lane...Ive told you b4 I have a quick wall and lane but couldnts seem to time it.....Well for the past few days ive just started seting up heads up on the 2nd five bar guy and drag a hair and stick lane or drag wall..or drag to the 1 fake back up to 2nd then lane to the middle 3 guy....i can hit the lane more consistantly...but whe i hit the wall right its feels good.

Watching pappas pass on you tube the wall is so fast but i noticed almost no wind up ..so no wasted movement, so quicker pass,,,,I can hit the wall like that but gotta drill it atleast ten thousand more times so its second nature.....but the feel of he wall is tougher to get down pat....he sets it up in front of the rod...but i find the wall easier if its right in the middle....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBo9TuCz7XM

[bbtuna]

a couple of things...first off, lets use Johnny Lotts naming convention for men, it makes talking about this stuff easier

5 bar, near guy is 51 and the second guy is 52, etc out to 55
3 bar, near guy 31, next 32, and then 33
2 bar, near guy 21, next 22
Goalie, near guy G1, G2, G3 (well, I made that up since he doesn't think about 3 guys on the goalie)

yea, the stationary hover means any motion you make is a motion they need to be concerned with...if you are faking all the way down, doing a bunch of jerky movements back and forth over the ball it is like not doing anything at all and then to get them to bite on the fake is hard, very hard

so you are doing a stationary 52-51 drag wall/lane right?  assuming so, notice that Billy sets the ball very close to the wall - his 51 is only like .75 to 1.25 inch off the wall (usually)...he sets it up in front of the rod because it makes the ball have to travel less distance to complete the pass (so it is faster and it is a timing most people aren't used to since no one else does it that way)...I think the lane off that is much harder than the wall...but both, like many things, are just a matter of getting familiar with them

you should add a 52 off the wall strike with 51 pass...I call it a bounce pass...it is a fake hard wall but you let the ball come off the wall and go lane...one hint on this, you need to slow down the move to the wall enough to let people react to it so they jump to the wall...the other thing I think should be added is the lane move but you chop the ball to the wall...a bunch of ways to do this but try hitting your lane same as always but instead of hitting the ball flush, hit it so it goes to the wall...I used to think you couldn't do this because it was asking too much detail for your body to pull off but it is no more detailed or picky than hitting a straight lane

the 52, 51, 52 lane pass to the 32 man is a great pass...I have never gotten comfortable with it but I think  it is a great pass but it is one that should be done in very specific circumstances...certain defenses (those starting on the wall and working out or those who bail hard to the wall when they think you are doing a hard stick wall) or after you have set it up

keep coming back, it is fun to hear about your game as it progresses

[bbtuna]

Michael Archer has never reached the very top but his 5 man has always been very respected especially his defense...he is a very intellectual player but one who does not let his intellect get in his way by over-thinking.  Mike has a great way of analyzing the game and then compartmentalizing the information and acting on the most important elements.

Michael Archer on passing in a series

It really depends on how you put it together. There is no such thing as "too many passes" per se, because, realistically, there are a limited number of them. There are several minor variations, such as tossing speed or hesitations, but it is still the same basic pass. Anyway, as I initially said, putting it all together is the key.

Many semi-pros consider their five bars "the ***", but wonder why they are not as effective as the pros in passing. You have to make your passes blend well. You need to pass in series. Think of how several passes work together, instead of "just let me get this pass through". The latter style of thinking does work, but you will find more pros going with the former.

This is not the easiest thing to describe, but basically, you do not want to pass with a mish mash of different passes, just because you can do them. First of all, your percentages will be lower, as it is damn near impossible to do ALL passes well ALL of the time. You will probably find that on a given night, a certain passing series will be on fire, and others will be horrible, and the inverse of that the next night. I ran through almost an entire Oklahoma state in singles doing nothing but chip passing, which I do on occasion, but never as my main series. Why? My brushing sucked that day, pure and simple.

To sum this post up, know how to do everything on the table, but take a subset of it and make it your best. Fall back to your secondary only if it makes sense in your passing series (and by that I mean in your overall passing plan for that game), or if your main series is not getting the job done. You will see this being repeated by pros all over the place. This will increase your percentages overall, which is of course what it is all about!

[chance37]

explain a chip pass for me tuna

[bbtuna]

it is what the group of people I hung with when I first played called an "uphill"...you drag/toss the ball from 52 to 51 slowly - as it nears the wall you hit the edge of the ball with the edge of the man...a chop sort of...like when you do an angle shot from a standing position except the ball is moving

it is a very simple looking pass, draw down slow, backswing of the man, chop or "chip" the ball up hill or go wall...the backswing becomes your fake like the hover move on a brush

on Tornado, there are very few people that can do this pass well consistently...it would be talked about with Stick, Brush, and Tic Tak if the edge of the man didn't have that curve in it...I know there are a few people who can still do it quite well but it has to be executed a little differently than on TS or other tables that have men with a straight edge.

it is an outstanding pass in my opinion but I saw what it could do on another table and it was very prominent as a pass in those days...plus I had a friend, who I think had one of the best ever...madening to block for most people

[bbtuna]

bump for Steve

[bbtuna]

A new addition from Ron Olson...real fine player who was on his way to the top when he got sick...he is still around and fighting that but hasn't been competing like he was...this was written just before he cut back on his involvment

The Brush Series
Ron Olson 8/21/06 (ezboard)

1. The setup-(setting the ball up for the brush)
Many players do this off the back pin with the 2nd man. The setup is the most important part of this series. The ball must roll over to the 1st man slow. When you finally make your pass it should be almost stopped or just have stopped. *RARELY* you can set the ball up fast and hit a wall or lane. That pass is called a "RUNNER". It's more of a guess, maybe you've seen they're on the wall everytime when you're getting ready to set up, and that's when you take advantage of that.

1a. Use the sides of man #1 to keep the ball moving once it's slowing down. You can use the sides of the men all you want and still pass it without having to touch another man. Even bounce it off the wall with the 1st man and still you can pass with him.

2. The ball must be back far. A little ahead of where it would get pinned. The farther back the ball is, the steeper you can brush it. You must be able to brush steep from near the wall, and deep to the wall from farther out. That gives you the range you need to be deadly.

3. Be patient. You should be using 2 walls and 10 seconds on 90% of your passes. Learn to brush while the ball is rolling TOWARD the wall, and AWAY from the wall, so they NEVER know when it's coming.

Note from bbtuna - not everyone feels the 2 walls 10 seconds...you want to mix it up, toss speed, going to the wall and not going to the wall, passing before the wall and as the ball is coming off the way, pass at 1 second and 2 and 3, all the way to 10...these things are as important as varying where you start your pass - generally you want to use the clock but be careful not to fall into a patern because to a good defender, knowing when you are going can be as helpful as know what spot you are going to start from or if you are going to go lane or wall

4. Hover over the ball! The hovering should be as wide as the top of the ball, and you should be able to throw fakes. Now here is the most important part of a brush-YOU MUST STAY CLOSE TO THE BALL WITH THE MAN WHILE HOVERING! Of course if you touch it, you have to touch a 2nd man before making your pass or you've made an illegal adjustment, so try not to touch it like that, but you must stay close. Learn to hover fast AND slow.

NEVER raise the man higher over the ball than you were hovering while passing. I call it "chopping". Don't chop it! The real motion of the rod during a brush is not so much a forward motion with the man but a pull or push of the rod. If you're brushing up, the rod should touch the far wall to ensure a good follow through. The same goes for the brush down. End on the near wall.

These are the biggest keys to a brush pass. Learn to pass hard and it's gonna take 1000's of them to get them tournament ready, but it's a great series.