Topic: Back pins

[Old Meister]

Nobody uses them at the top level but I still think they are an effective play. If you have a dominant fakey push and a pin pull, well the rest is left to imagination,,

[foozkillah]

Nobody uses them at the top level but I still think they are an effective play. If you have a dominant fakey push and a pin pull, well the rest is left to imagination,,

I still see the heelshot fake into a push, and a lot more often, that just seems naturally to square off, because of the 3x-4x longer brush on the ball during the backswing from the frontpointed position, adding more friction on the side of the ball, creating more clockwise sidespin, enough to turn a natural hard slight spray push into a pounding long square push.  I guess the fake heelshot into a pull is less natural and I more often see a standard quickset palmroll pullside from the middle, using a return or brushing motion to square off the ball instead.  And that variation's very effective, especially with a lot of snakers who decide to quickset a palmroll pullside while faking or "selling" their move to get into rollover position.

Perhaps the backpin fakey pull could be as natural as the heelshot fakey push, but I guess a lot more backpin players just naturally go pullside with a standard brushup firing motion, even way way beyond deadbar.  That natural deadbar rightside pullside with the natural return motion into a brush, while firing, just seems so much simpler from the backpin, anyway.

I also still see a lot of transfers from the middle (32 man) heelshot set, back & forth, to either outside player (31 or 33) and then quickly turning it into a slice or angle shot from either outside player figure, and usually with a palmroll shot.  Or a quick dink from the outside into the corners.  It seems to be just a variation on a 3player tic tac on the 3bar, culminating in a slice palmroll from either the 31 or 33.  In comparison, I don't think I've ever seen a backpin from the center transferred repeatedly to either outside (31 or 33) player and then shot from there, with wrist or with a palmroll.

The main advantage of the heelshot, or frontpinned, ball shots, of course, seem to come from the natural ability to roll off the frontpin or heelshot at a 45 deg angle and shoot a square or high angle palmroll quickset.  With the backpins, more effort and rhythm is needed to get into any desired firing position, plus the longer distance to the goalmouth, of course.  One major example is the straight or quickset.  Any decent series can move the ball in a pin, but only the heelshot ones allow one to leave the ball to stop, come off the heelshot pin, and almost immediately strike the ball, square on, or at any angle.  This seems nearly impossible to easily do quickly enough, when using a moving backpin series.  One just needs to move the ball on the heelshot, leave the ball alone to stop at any position and come off and instantly wrist flick or palmroll the ball.  This is just so problematic when trying to come from a backpin series.

[pinalyzer]

I do the middle set to the outside man, but usually just as a crowd pleaser, most times it is just as effective to just go push side long with out transfering men.

I do a shot that is a reverse pull, but have changed it recently with a lot of success to bring it back to hit the middle.  A lot of defenses seem to scatter to the corners and thus leave the middle at the slightest fake. 
For some reason I have lost my reverse push shot from the backpin but I have put very little practice time on my 3 rod and have been mainly working on the five as I have incorporated the brush pass series moving from the wall chip up series and this took a lot of practice time.

For my pack pin shots go to youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/pinalyzer

Ignore the daughter cheerleading videos...
Pinalyzer

[MR.STEVE]

I have not seen a fast back pin and I shoot a ok one but no one around here shoots one that I have seen with speed that leaves ya talking about it how are your shots speed wise ? mine is less than fast

[Old Meister]

I would have responded back sooner but I wanted to try to video my "stuff" on back pins but it was not to be. So until I get it worked out I'm happy that you guys responded. I watched Pinalyzer's video, good stuff! and I was hoping Bbtuna would respond as I know he uses back pins also. I think it is a blast to go with this sequence, mixing the reversal push and pull(though harder yet more effective) with straight pin pulls and pin pushes to compliment the reversals. Just when you got the goalie looking back and forth at those you can throw in a side kick angle on either side or a bump kick either way. Then just to throw the whole thing into complete chaos you can throw in a 3 man tic tac angling in from what ever side you want. Steve, if you want it faster you have to let it all hang out with alot of pressure and contact on a very fast rock and make it go BOOM! Works for me,,

[bbtuna]

OM,

that can generate some decent power into the goal but what you described will not give you good lateral speed

the challenge with a back pin is being able to generate lateral speed without rocking in the oposite direction first - it can be done...you should be able to get the same lateral speed you can on your best standard pull but I am betting for those of you who don't shoot this shot all the time, you will find this nearly impossible...but again, it can be done

pressure down on the rod engages muscles that slow the lateral motion...test what I am saying

put a ball in a back pin at the big dot and stay totally still - try first pressing down hard and trying to rip it and then try the same things as relaxed as possible...set up a regular pull and do the same thing and compare the motions, muscles, and issues involved with generating lateral speed with out the head start of a rock in the opposite direction (when I say rock it could be a large rock like Pinalizer is showing in his videos or the short rock like is used in most rollers)

[Old Meister]

What you may be true. I know a relaxed approach without opposing muscles makes for a a lightening fast shot but to say that the shot is slow makes me want to say "RIP IT!" and go from there. For me this sequence is all about being dominating and imposing. To hold back diminishes the desired over-reaction from the goalie. I want him as nervous as can be and react to every fake  I throw at him and he better or it will be a one move shot.

[MR.STEVE]

I know my grip has to feel perfect no slipping on the grip at all then my results are great..

[bbtuna]

i didn't say it was slow, what I said was that one of the biggest challenges for a backpin is generating LATERAL speed and the death grip you described may produce power into the gaol but is not good at dealing with the lateral speed issues

all shots are better if they are fast and indimidating but most people shooting the backpin can not blow people away with their Billy Pappas lateral speed but rather rely on fakes and movement to score

if Billy sat still on his roller he could burn a bunch of people to the corners just by speed alone

i bet money, on a reasonable defense, you could not do that with a backpin - the reason isn't because i think you are slow but rather because the backpin has its challenges generating lateral speed...as I said, not impossible, just difficult compared to set shots and front pins all things being equal

[wildcard]

Charles I did notice that the Warrior must have been harder to keep lateral speed on. It had been years (decades, lol) since I had to block backpins, but it seemed to come back to me pretty easy. I figure my blocking percentage would have dropped a bit if we had been on a Tornado, because you had the mechanics down pat. It was a pleasure meeting you and playing you.

[foozkillah]

i didn't say it was slow, what I said was that one of the biggest challenges for a backpin is generating LATERAL speed and the death grip you described may produce power into the gaol but is not good at dealing with the lateral speed issues.

Please clarify that you're talking about lateral speed on wrist or closed hand backpin shots, right?  Because we have 2-3 backpin shooters here, who use the palmroll and can go with the middle 3figure from a backpinned middle set on the away side of the big dot, and crush the deadbar or 7, as fast as a pull shot.  And we have another guy, GB, who can rattle off unbelievably fast pullkick backpins from an inch off the far wall to a deadbar.  Standstill, but often a dribbling set with the far 3figure.  And he can do even more frightening backpins from the nets.  He loves going outside figure to the other, blasting really really quickly from the big dot.

Your descriptions are confusing, because there IS NO PROBLEM WITH LATERAL SPEED, on TS, Dynamo, and SEVERAL TORNADO MODELS, with an open hand palmroll backpin.  Many busted 3figures along the way, but still no lateral speed problem.  Once a player figures out how to "topkick" a roll from the other figure, the acceleration is drastic after the first viewable inch of lateral travel.  The trick to the release is maximum compression on the top of the ball before firing, with almost visible flexing of the table surface and/or playing figure, and the touch to release at the start of the shot, which rolls the ball forward enough to prevent stubbing.  And the best backpin shooters from my TS days, even the wrist or closed hand shooters, also used max pressure right before a very very quick release of pressure at the exact moment on the final yank before the shot.

[Old Meister]

Thanks Foozkillah, you explained it a lot better than I could.

[bbtuna]

i wrote a reply on this yesterday but it wouldn't post so I saved it but that is at home but I will answer

[Old Meister]

To be fair, I agree with the "death grip" analogy being counterproductive. But that is not what I said. And in referrence to being slow, that was directed towards Steve's observations and the "Rip it" and "Let it all hang out" comments are just that. Go for it with everything you got as it is a killer shot. Doubt just makes for half-hearted attempts. Limp wrists do not apply,,,,. So Bbtuna, we probably are not at odds on the execution of this shot sequence. You obviously have it working for you and have a mindset in how that happens. Share it and good on you for it. But at least try to understand that there are others that use this shot sequence effectively and we have our own take on it. I do mostly shoot it with a closed hand, with pressure, but not a "death grip". And should these stiff old wrists respond, I leave the goalie in na na land.

[bbtuna]

OM,

we are good...here are my thoughts on "pressure"