Author Topic: Back pins  (Read 30215 times)

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Offline Old Meister

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2009, 03:43:39 PM »
You're killing me Fooskilla >:(, I gave up on trying banks up front on the Tornado table. I loved them on TS, all three men both directions but I can't seem to even get the close ones on Tornado. I do do a mean close man pull cut with an openhanded backpin though. It's a good option to the pushkick of the backpin.

Offline MR.STEVE

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2009, 06:49:25 PM »

You need a loose wrist to shoot a smooth shot and get the toss to have any speed what I mean is relax those muscles and think you should be able to score a very high % the short holes you need to make sure that the ball is sitting forward a little more to hit them also the straight defenders will always test you to see if you can hit it don`t hesitate to go for it even if they block it you will have just established that you can hit it. I always shoot the side that gives my the dead man I know I can hit it . then you can shoot just inside his man ..there are lots of options off the back pin take your time pic your hole , falling for the defender that will bait you is the only way to be stoped Now you should have all the info you need ..

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2009, 07:39:04 PM »
You're killing me Fooskilla >:(, I gave up on trying banks up front on the Tornado table. I loved them on TS, all three men both directions but I can't seem to even get the close ones on Tornado. I do do a mean close man pull cut with an openhanded backpin though. It's a good option to the pushkick of the backpin.

The hardest 3bar bank, the long crossover from the edge player figure, is also usually the last defended shot.  For one thing, the setup looks just like you're trying a straight-in angle or "cut" shot into the nearest corner or between the defenders.  It was actually pretty easy to make consistent.  After months of trial and error, I figured out that you had to pin the ball pretty much on the top, rock it and just stop at the right position and palmroll it from there.  Basically you bring it with the rock to the contact position and just palmroll in place back to that spot.  Really weirdly consistent.  Mixing up the superlong backpin bank with that straight can really ruin the goalkeeper's day.  ;D

I rarely ever tested a wrist shot bank on that long bank, but I do the instant wrist bank off the nearest wall on both sides, too.  The near wall quickie banks seem to have  a lot more margin for error.. prolly because there's less distance to the near corner. 1/3 to 1/4 as long... so angle errors arent' magnified 3-4 times.

Offline Old Meister

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 12:04:43 AM »
Bbtuna, I did not mean to be disrespectful to you. I actually did like the static back pin shots. No, I didn't use a bunch of pressure to do them so you were right in what you were saying.  I look at the reaction time to a shot to determine whether it would be effective or not and, of course, the delivery of the shot has a lot to do with that. By sitting on it and doing a very simple, smooth execution with the minimal movement needed to carry out the shot, it seems like it would be a real effective style of play. It seems that those shots would certainly open up the effectiveness of the reversal of both directions which would be started with the same move. Control and timing is everything,,,. I do respect what you say and hope you don't think otherwise.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2009, 05:51:46 PM »
Old Deutscher,

This might not hold or be necessary at your area's locals, but I can't believe that anyone currently playing against the pulls and rollers in locals, superlocals, regionals and on tour would use a backpin series without the bank and quickset palmroll options.  To use it effectively as a main series, like I occassionally do and as do a couple other players (all with IFP and USTSA tour experience) in our area in SoFlorida, the variety of the options has to be used.

So although it is definitely harder because the contact points on the ball and the followthrough geometries from a backpin bank on the 3bar are very different from TS browns or blues, it has to be included.  The backpin requires more preparation when rocked, although the SS certainly improves those..  the shot is physically farther from the goal which can only help the defender, and there is NO INSTANT STRAIGHT, because it's physically impossible.

But the ability to do quickset nearwall banks, very reliable cut shots from the 33 or 31 players, moving transition into a reverse pull or push, and yes, instant bankshots from in front of the goal, or middle smallbox area are vital additions to making the shot complete and deadly.  That is the only way I would recommend anyone utilize a wrist or openhand palmroll backpin series.  The percentages just kill you whenever you try to utilize the ole "TS" style of a rocking set into a pull, push or angle brush split, against a decent oldschool pull or a non-noob's rollover.

The NO INSTANT STRAIGHT AVAILABLE is the major weakness of the backpin, and prolly, IMHO, why it has fallen into disuse.  By nature, the standard rocking backpin series is a playful offense, inviting a good defender to not be wrongstepped or hoodwinked into an opening.  It's definitely more honorable, like daring an opponent in a bar to "put up their dukes" and fight.  By comparison, a pull shot is like stabbing the opponent with a large kitchen knife after polite introductions, and a good rollover is like picking up a chair and going Springer, whaling on the opponent while he's talking to someone else.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2009, 09:08:01 PM »
OM,
thanks, I appreciate your comments...we are good

killa

name the shot you can do an "instant" straight on...last I heard, you have to flip a front toe 359 degrees to hit a straight...with a pull or push straight you need to at the very least lift your man and come in front of the ball enough to hit it straight...neither of these are "instant" - I think you may want to redefine terms because in the length of time it takes these other shots to execute I can shoot the hole you leave straight infront of my man if you are defending my backpin

the straight on the backpin is basically a split and you won't defend me long giving me a split unless you are mentally slow or stubborn

also, you do NOT need to use kicks or banks for the BP to be effective

and finally, the idea that because the ball is further from the goal that it is slower to the back of the goal is a myth...the benefit of the distance the ball is from the goal is neutralized by the height of the backswing...so, even though a Euro front pin starts with the ball several inches in front of the starting BP position, the backswing on the man goes quite far back on the vast majority I have seen...a BP done right has almost no backswing so in pure terms, a BP shooter will strike the ball before a front toe shooter all things being equal

and the position of the ball provides many additional options and offers accuracy with brush backs that I have never seen achieved even my Rico on the front pin

you act like you are a current expert on a backpin but when you say things like this it tells me you don't know very much...these are basic truths to the BP

the 3 most common arguements against a BP
1.  Can't shoot straight
2.  Slow lateral speed
3.  Ball is further away from the goal than other shots

now I will add a forth,

4. You need to use kicks and banks to make a BP effective

suit youself if this is what you believe but I have worked at this now in two foosball lives and on 3 different tables and if I had a student who was young and had the potential to be Billy/Tony/Rob/Ryan great and they dedicated themselves to the BP, all these would be finally and permanently put to rest

in the mean time, I will give you my personal and professional evaluation and it can be summed up in one word for each of these 4 points..."BullS&it!"

Offline werewolf

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 12:56:55 AM »
Hey can a stranger butt-in ?

Maybe we can define a "straight" as : no lateral movement of the ball required, in oder to move it forward into the goal :)

Sure, in any other shot ... pull, front-pin, etc ... the man has to move to hit a "straight". Sometimes, most-times,  the man must move laterally (but not in a rollover of course) to hit the straight. So, in my humble opinion, there is a distinction for the backpin.

Not saying the backpin series isn't effective, though ... i used it quite successfully in the late 70's TS era !

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 10:12:11 AM »
wolf,

NP..the backpin can not shoot the hole in which the pinned ball sits in without first moving the ball but my point is, the BP can still hit that hole but I will grant a movement has to take place first...but this is true in the case of ALL straights, in the case of the BP, the movement includes moving the ball, in the case of all other shots it is movement of the man apart from the ball - those shots can not hit the ball straight without first moving their man

so, it becomes an arguement of symantics not reality...call it what you will, leave the hole over the ball on a back pin and I will score it in that hole a lot...call it a split or a straight, doesn't matter to me if it makes you (or anyone) more comfortable but the bottom line is, the hole people call a straight on a BP can be hit

you can not hit that hole without moving but no other shot can hit their straight hole without moving either...I move the ball when i shoot it, they do not...no big deal, I still hit the hole so I can for sure shoot straight...

I challenge anyone who would like to block me to leave that hole "knowing I can not hit it" and watch how quickly they change their mind about that or how often I score it
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 10:15:07 AM by bbtuna »

Offline werewolf

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 11:29:20 AM »
i can dig it :)

In my view, the whole concept of a "straight" has less meaning for a pin series than a pull shot anyway. The distinction being, that for a pull shot the "set-up" is stationary ... the ball isn't moving in the set-up. But in a pin series (front, back, rollover), the ball is typically in constant lateral motion, so the idea of a "straight" loses a lot of its meaning. If the ball is in constant lateral motion during the set-up, and the defenders are constantly moving laterally in moving-zone defense, what does a "straight" mean anyway ... know what I mean?

And that's what probably makes the "no straight" from a back-pin almost a moot point, in my opinion.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2009, 01:41:06 PM »
yea, we are on the same path with that

if a person wants to call the open hole in front of a backpin a straight then we can safely say it can be hit...if they don't like that and want to call that space a split then we can say the split can be hit

it is as you describe a moving hole so it isn't straight in the way we think of a set shot straight

but in all fairness, although I don't think it is a good enough definition, when people say "straight" they mean the ball struck straight ahead sitting in a stationary position with no diviation or movement of the ball to the right or left first and the movement of the man is not important

I get this and using this definition the BP can not hit a straight but as I said before and have said in the past, if you leave that hole against me, you will start to change your definition

Offline Old Meister

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2009, 04:51:54 PM »
As Ww said, there is constant lateral motion but what I really like is the ability to change the tempo and center of that motion at will. It truly can be a nasty series. If I try to mirror those same shots off a frontpin I'd be more likely to do palm shots but the back pin I do close handed(wrist)  as it seems so much faster, not so much wind up on the stoke. In the TS days I'd dance back and forth between front and back pins with some in-line dancing as well to "free up" a shot. With today's direction of a more contolable ball I hope that that style will become workable for me again.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2009, 11:21:52 AM »
BBT,

I never argued that the BP wasn't a nasty series.  But the BP series, so dependent on "touch" and table, ball and player toe conditions, takes way way too much commitment to practice and concentration in comparison to shots that have a simple straight.  And even getting a good long or brush to a split is harder than learning a pull, push, or the natural release points to the "post" on a rollover or Euro.  You highlighted a major difficulty of the shot yourself... the no-ball-motion STRAIGHT, using a dribbling shuffle or to-side-and-back in a BP is an ADVANCED option!  It's so simple and easy to teach with a pull, push or rollover!  So YOU can shoot it, but how much harder is it than a pull or rollover shot's natural straight?

And yes, I was using BPs on Deutsche Meisters and other tables with "block" square toes on really crappy white plastic balls from the mid 70s.  Nice and fun to show off your skill levels with, but even for rookie or amateur level play, it breaks down too often when the game's on the line.  And it's no fun to get overwhelmed shot for shot by even rookies using a pull in the 70s 80s or using a rollover in the 90s and nowadays.  I use and show noobs the 3bar banks, to make it fun!  Because I know they'll end up using a rollover or even a pull or push for their main series, using the least amount of time to get up to speed.  But at least they'll have a fun 3rd or 4th option to throw in when using a BP.  And I seriously suspect any supposed BP expert who have difficulty with 3bar banks, even on a Tornado.  Much as I suspect pull or push kickers with no dink option, no matter how fast or loud their main shot.

Tens of thousands of players over the past 3 decades or more weren't stupid.  Hundreds of thousands of games in locals, regionals and majors have not shown many BP shooters able to dominate, at all levels..  If they did, there would be many more BP shooters as the balls, surfaces and player toes got better and better.  Money and results talk and "BullSh&t" BP straights walk.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2009, 01:38:38 PM »
killa,

there is a big difference between how effective a BP series can be and how hard it is to learn

there is NO doubt it is hard to learn, probably the hardest shot on the table and with the effectiveness of a pull and a rollover and the relative ease they are to learn, the likihood of the BP becoming a household shot, regardless of how dominant anyone ever becomes with it, is very very remote

look at Freddy...no one has ever dominated like he has and he certainly has "proven" the effectiveness of the Euro pin, without kicks, banks and the like, and yet not one person I know of in the US has taken up the shot up in over 10 years...the young up and comers are still doing rollers and pulls...Rollers and Pulls are just too effective and too easy to learn...the Euro to learn at Fred's level (or near because who after all is a freak like Fred?) is so hard no one will take the time to do it...instand gradification drives people today even in foosball

Europe is even picking up on the Roller and not the other way around even though those tables ar vastly and historically dominated by the Eruo Pin

pushkick and pullkick set shots are very hard to learn as primary shots as well and we never see new young super stars taking up those either because they are harder to learn (and in their case harder on the arm unlike a BP which is easy the arm)

we can argue until the cows come home on if the BP "could" be a dominant shot in the hands of enough committed people...I am certain, even with your obvious vast knowledge of the game (and I don't mean that sarcasticly) that I know way more about a BP than you do and I say without dinks, banks, and kicks a BP on Tornado, IS the best shot on the table and could be as dominant as any shot has ever been given enough people shooting it and some young bucks emerging who have it as the primary weapon

a small aside, I never said the straight was any kind of issue, I consider one of the easy points/shots of the BP...in real terms, it makes absolutely no difference to me that I can not just pound the ball straight without first moving it...it isn't necessary, I can score on you anyway if you leave it

however, this is all theory I suppose until someone "proves" it by dominating on tour with one but I think I understand the game nearly as well as you and I am totally convinced that it is the best shot on the table apart of the "extra" stuff

in the mean time, for those who use it for fun and show, it is a great toy but for the very few of us who have committed to it as a primary shot, we know the truth and I feel pretty certain that if we played together for a while you would agree with me even though I am 52 and certainly nearing the downside of my foosball life

I only wish I had stuck at it the first time around because I am certain the landscape would be different now but that ship has sailed...maybe someday, even with my limited foos life, I may be able to turn the tide of opinion...I still cling to that hope...we will see

Offline rios820

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2009, 03:15:46 PM »
I dont think you can call the back-pin the "best shot" on the table. I realize your bias because you shoot it. But c'mon, if it was the absolute best shot wouldnt there be someone out there that would put in the time to learn it, perfect it, and win with it?
Reguardless,
I dont think that there is a "best shot" on any table. It isnt the shot the wins championships... it is the person shooting it.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Back pins
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »
well, I know it appears I am biased because I shoot the shot but my opinion on the shot and the fact I shoot it aren't really related...i shoot it now because I started using it in my first foosball life and had so much memory in it when I came back I didn't want to start from scratch to learn a new shot

I thought it was good back then but I really hadn't formed "best" shot type of distinctions at the time...in those days a person could (and did) pick from a wider group of shots...i picked this because it was unique and I was trying to develop a unique (Tony Spree like) game

my opinion now is informed by a much greater understanding on mechanics of shots, starting position, options, capabilities, potential for speed, decptive capabilities, etc.  My opinion is NOT based on how hard it is to learn, this doesn't figure in at any level...if it did, it wouldn't be anywhere near the top because as i said, it is very likely the hardest shot to learn

you are right when you say "it isn't the shot that wins championships...it is the person shooting" but that is not relavant to the conversation...I am not saying and have not suggested that there is some magic in the shot or that you could give it to a complete boob and they would easily win worlds

I am saying it is the best shot because of what can be done with it that can not be done with any other shot and given all things were equal...same player, same understanding, same skill, same depth Billy/Tony/Ryan/Rob Atha shooting BP's (totally matured like their rollers are) compared with Billy/Tony/Ryan/Rob Atha shooting rollers would change the foosball worlds opinion on the BP FOREVER

the kind of pin point precision and control you have with brushes/angles both directions, coupled with the easiest longest longs in the game, ball control, speed changes, direction changes...it is possible to hit every hole from every position from one end of the goal to the other, straight, angled, brushed, with or without fake, double fake, triple fake, pound fakes in place, or jump pound fakes and the reverse, same direction short either direction

it is mind blowing all that can be done...there is not other shot that even comes close...the euro is the closest but even that is very limited and not anywhere near as capable with pin point splits in shorter space than you ever imagined possible

all this can be done holding the ball the whole time available or can be done as a quick shot

and we aren't touching all the extreme stuff that can be done with relative ease and accuracy like tick tac kicks, dinks, banks, outside men slices, quick rolls into kicks, pulls, pushes, etc

no, it isn't even close...the great weakness of the shot is how long it takes to learn and having (at least for me) too many options but that goes back to the player's ability more than the shot itself

no, all things being equal, the backpin is the best shot on the table from the 3 rod in terms of what it can do compared to any other shot on the rod
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 03:49:48 PM by bbtuna »