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Back pins

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Offline MR.STEVE

  • 117
  • slowhand
Re: Back pins
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2009, 08:16:36 AM »
The Dif. between a BP and a Rollover is a BP can be shot at a slower speed and be efective and the rollover must be very fast or your toast.

Re: Back pins
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2009, 10:18:32 AM »
A rollover with a methodical medium speed rock that is simply extended on one end of the rock and the shot is smoothly executed without a hitch in the motion  can be a very effective technique. Also a medium speed back angle "tweener' can give goalies fits. It's the delivery that makes the difference.

Offline foosinaround69

  • 115
  • No garder snakeshot here, just the AnacondaBackpin
Re: Back pins
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2009, 04:36:49 PM »
I'll have to post on you tube here soon the "Anacondabackpin" for you guys...more for those who haven't seen a backpin shot the way I shoot it!!!! Any hole can be hit. Whether it's a brush/dink or a deadbar pull or a long push I think you'd be pretty surprised to see how fast and accurate I can be. Now I need to find a vid camera and a decent table to shoot on........Mr Steve is there still tourneys in Lansing???

Offline foosdragon

  • 36
  • Foos it and shut up
Re: Back pins
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2010, 03:58:56 PM »
Speed is overrated when using the backpin. The multiple options from the pin should replace the "need for speed". With the pin pull, pin push, both reverses, banks, angles, and masse, that should be enough to keep the goalie guessing. Now, tables will dictate the effectiveness of any shot, but it's good to have a complete arsenal if one or the other doesn't work that day.

Offline foozkillah

  • 764
  • Sure Ain't A Livin'
Re: Back pins
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2010, 12:02:58 AM »
The Dif. between a BP and a Rollover is a BP can be shot at a slower speed and be efective and the rollover must be very fast or your toast.

I have to disagree with your quick conclusion there about any typical BP and any typical Rollover/Snake.  I would propose, instead, that, once the ball is securely pinned in initial firing position, the three major types of both the BP and the Rollover share very similar characteristics.

I have observed three basic types of both BP (mid 70s to 80s tour quality) and Rollover (90s through today).  The most common one would be type (A) or the longer back & forth shuffle, then the second most common, type (B) or the standstill or very small wiggle set, and lastly the mixed and less common one, type (C) which is the walking dribble back and forth shot.

The most common type, the type (A) fastlongshuffle on the pin, whether BP OR Rollover, which can go rolling the ball under the pin from end to end of the middle 3bar's (#32man) foot, seems easiest to shoot 3/4 and long or even dead bar square shots with.  The higher the skill level, the more the ball is rolled back & forth at the same pressure and is generally a rhythm or timing shot.  The more quickly and smoothly the ball is rolled back & forth, the faster the ball can be released in rhythm and simply hit at the point desired.  This type (A) shot, whether using a BP or a Rollover, seems the easiest to get into rhythm with, no matter how warmed up or cold the shooter is.  By nature, feel for the ball increases.  Best shutdown defense on both the BP and Rollover fastlongshuffles, of course, is a zone or post defense, which continuously defends against a timed shot that can hit even either extreme long, since it's for the most part a timing shot.

The second most common, type (B), or standstill/small wiggle shots, are also widely seen.  There is no natural workup into a rhythm, so keeping the perfect pressure on the pinned ball and keeping the takeoff correct from a standstill or near standstill wiggle is harder.  These shooters need more warmup, but can be just as deadly once they figure out the proper pressure and pitch or angle of take off, (also a factor when doing a palmroll push or pull off a pinned ball).  The quickset into a hard spray from just past the big dot or at the 3/4 going to the long hole is one of the deadlier features of this shot, while the long long square or deadbar is a bit more problematic to control.  A long square or deadbar from these standstill/wiggle BPs or Rollovers are as hard to do if not harder than with a palmroll frontpin.  Usually the type (B) shooter will have a very very good pull or push side square or deadbar, but not both.  Bait and Race D's usually work better against these BPs and Rollovers, because they are faster, but are usually not as superlong as those from the type (A) fastlongshuffle shooters. Type (B) BP and Rollover shooters are often trying to simply get around the outside 2bar or goalkeeper defender, just as one often does when shooting a standard pull, push or pushkick underrod shot (non-pinned).  The best type (B) shooters also seem to have developed really really hard release or firing strokes, which of course minimize the spray from long-rolled balls.

Less common BPs and Rollovers are the type (C) dribble and wiggle shots, although some of the best seem to be of these type.  These use the sometimes hard and loud dribble to walk the ball in front of the goal mouth, trying to find the nearest baited hole, or even working the zone or race D into pauses.  These BP's and Rollovers, especially at the highest skill levels, make use of the walking dribble to get into rhythm, too, much as the type (A) fastlongshuffle shooters do on the pin.  But the feature of an instant quickset, as seen with type (B) standstill or wiggle shooters for very very short sideways pitches is also available.  This type of BP or Rollover shooter can walk until just inside or outside either the 2bar or goalkeeper player, stop or continue dribbling at will, and do an instant quickset into a hole a ballwidth or less over, just like the type (B) standstill shooters do, but of course from a much smaller lateral distance, which keeps the natural spraying tendency down versus the type (B) shooter going long but spraying more.  More fakes, especially loud tapping ones, are also built-in to these BPs and Rollovers, and most of these type (C) dribble and wiggle shooters can always fall back on their basic BP or Rollover series, the type (A) or type (B) they probably began shooting pinned shots with.  Defending the type (C) is usually best with observing which short quick shot holes they favor, baiting these holes and closing them.  Although I have seen that some can go from a walking dribble with a BP or Rollover to very far over to the other side successfully (more than half goal length).  But they usually cannot hit these as well as the baited holes, which are simple 1 inch longs or shorter, to either pull side or push side or splits.

I've observed these over the past 20 years for not just BPs and Rollovers, but guess which shot uses type (C) strategies with stops and starts, quick sets and crossover fakes?  Why the Euro, of course...  but I think for Euros, the type (C) dribble-wiggle is an even more common choice, seen in perhaps half if not more with most Euro shooters, at least at the pro or tournament levels I've seen.

BP purists should be rightfully proud of their skill levels, with the ball control to nicely hit picked holes in rhythm, negating the need for brute speed, but fastlongshuffle type (A) Rollover shooters exhibit the same accuracy and precision, and most non-Rollover shooters just don't realize why absolute squares and super 7 deadbars from these shuffling snakers OFTEN SEEM SO IMPOSSIBLY EASY.  It's because they're not having to crank the ball sideways while maintaining control, and the ball is in motion already, just needing to be released in its final direction.. SAME AS A RELEASED LONG BALL ON A BP.  And the roll once released can be plenty fast, not quite as fast as the type (B) standstill/wiggle lateral, but as fast as when you flick the top of the ball with your fingers to roll it, which can be as quick if not quicker than smacking or pushing/pulling the ball from the side.  That can actually hurt your finger.. LOL!

Of course, in closing, one cannot emphasize enough that at the release or firing point, the good shooter still must have enough forward rollover or BP cranking speed, which would be the second consideration after the initial pitch or launch from whichever type (A), (B), or (C) BP or Rollover that the shooter is coming from.  And at this point, speed to the hole is also helped when shooting from a Rollover or Euro front pin, being several inches closer to the goal at contact.  But if the BP shooter is smooth enough and the D isn't zoning/posting D a shuffle, or the D is prone to too many pauses checking the shooter's motion, any decent firing speed is usually good enough, too.  The BP longer swing, on the other hand, also means a longer time of contact with the fired ball, the same as with a normal pull, push, or kick shot.

Hope my 20 pesetas can illuminate the SIMILARITIES, not the DIFFERENCE of the various pin shots ... Or which one was superior or better.  The most difference I can see is that closed hand Euro's, BP's, pulls, pushes, and kickshots are predominantly stroked shots, like batting for hits in baseball, or with irons in golf.  While almost all open hand, palm rolled BP's, Rollovers, and Euro's are more like slap shots in hockey or swings for homers in baseball.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 12:16:31 AM by foozkillah »

Offline foozkillah

  • 764
  • Sure Ain't A Livin'
Re: Back pins
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2010, 12:23:17 AM »
Then why, you should ask, are there less BP's today in North America, if they can follow the same shooting principles successfully used by frontpin Rollovers and Snakes?

I believe this is because the shape of the back of the Tornado and even Warrior or Shelti or other like figured tables, lends itself to more lateral rolling pin control with frontpins, versus the front shape of the feet, which I know do not give the same feel or control for BP's of the older TS, Dynamo or other European table types.

This would prolly all go away and more BP's would be feasible if they made the feet front and back virtually symmetrical.  I've actually experienced this... all you need is a stoner promoter or vending operator putting a replacement Tornado #32 man on backwards.  Backpins I used to shoot on TS in the late 70s suddenly became intuitive again, and a couple of us were ACTUALLY SORRY when the table operator came back and put the man on correctly.

Thats another 10 pesetas...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 12:30:00 AM by foozkillah »

Offline the spray

  • 55
  • Brown Bank Bomber
Re: Back pins
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2010, 12:07:42 AM »
Heres 's what I say, I will do the best I can to make the back pin the most talked about shot on tour this year. What I add to the series of BP is the banks. O.M. will back me on this they are nasty. At Runaway Bay I shot them and couldn't miss. A lot of goalies were shaking there heads and I could feel their pain. When you add the banks to the BP it makes the BP mathamatically the shot to do. It makes the goal HUGE. See you in Atlanta

Re: Back pins
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2010, 11:07:13 PM »
Hello everybody, new to the board and am chomping on the bit to get in on this conversation.

I learned to play on some older German style tables, my favorite being an old Hurricane table. I developed on hell of a 3-man bank shot, forward towards the away wall. It started first as a pin bank, stationary ball, but developed into a timed kick on a moving ball. One hell of a shot that could be hit with either man. I got so good at it that I could hit it at will as my primary shot.

Then I moved to North Carolina and was introduced to Bonzini tables. After learning front-pin shots, I incorporated banks into the pin series and became quite successful. I did really well in two NC State tournaments, open semifinals, using only my bank shots. Then people started defending with a crossover defense, putting the two-man on the wall away from me. This disrupted my bank shots. So I started hitting the reverse bank shot toward me. I have found that I can bank far better, far faster, using a back-pin. I am trying to make it my primary set. I am learning to do the straights, reverses, etc, but on Bonzini, with the cork ball, you really have to pull the ball forward enough to keep from stubbing the toe. It can be done though, but I currently need a rather new ball. I've had much more success with the ITSF ball, but the redesign is suppose to be stickier which keeps me wondering if the new ball will work as well. I love the back pin. I need to develop some angles, cut backs. I was trying to smack the ball hard at an angle, but it seems that I need to develop a brush, unfortunately, I can't seem to learn a brush pass for my five-man so I wonder if I'll be able to do it on the three. If I could pass, I would gladly bring a back-pin to the tour.

As to the straight-shot. Can't be done, especially on Bonzini. With a slicker ball, a sweet masse might be possible, but it ain't going to happen. Too slow. I'm thinking a move-split will beat the spread defense taking advantage of the straight, but I've got a better option. With the French tables I'm trying a French walk, back and forth, even going from man to man, moving the defensive pocket. I guess that's just a fancier version of a simple reverse though.

The main reason I started learning the straights on the backpin are to keep the two-man from switching sides when I choose to bank. Right now and effective defense to my bank is to bait me to one-side of the bank shot and then too quickly switch the two-man anticipating when I will shoot. The backpin straight keeps the two-bar fixed. I don't need to use the straight as a primary. I just need it to keep the defense honest.

I'm having a lot of success with this set. I know it might not be the most efficient shot, but to me it's the most fun, and it is a competitive shot. I hate seeing player after player copying and learning the same old shots, rollovers or hammer pull. I've got a great front-toe pull shot, and can win with it. I can hit long and short lightning fast, but it's BORING to me. Winning isn't fun enough. I'd rather entertain. The backpin has so much potential to entertain. I encourage players to toy with it from time to time, but in the end, it only works for me because I've developed one hell of a bank shot, to both sides, with either man, and I've been developing this style of play since 1988. It's not easy to pick up quickly so I can see why many players are not trying it.   

Re: Back pins
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2010, 01:45:03 PM »
Does anyone know how to do a backpin snake here?

Re: Back pins
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2010, 09:21:12 PM »
What would be the point of a back pin snake?

Re: Back pins
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2010, 04:24:10 PM »
Well it's fun to see and do. I was wondering if anyone would know how to do it so I they can help me with that.

Re: Back pins
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2010, 08:27:23 AM »
It's funny that you should mention a back pin roll over as that was the first I ever heard of or saw a roll over. That was back in 1976. A so called pro was trying to demonstrate it to us amateurs and he obviously didn't know how to do it as it was a ridiculous looking shot. I still wonder if he saw someone do it but it didn't register that it was off a front pin, not a back pin. I'm not so sure it would be a legal shot anyway as the rotation is over 360 degrees.

Re: Back pins
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2010, 11:37:45 PM »
If it's not in a front-pin or back-pin position, the person you mentioned is doing a rollover with the man's feet straight down?
I don't know if that's what you mean but I've actually seen people do that kind of shot and they use to say that was a 'snake shot' (but it really isn't).
How they would they do the shot is to roll the handle down their palm until it gets to their wrist with the ball beside the man. They would either tap it with the outside man on the 3-bar to the middle man and hit it or do a pull/push shot with it.

Re: Back pins
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2010, 04:09:35 PM »
It was from a backpin position and the man rolled over the top moving the ball forward and across. Something Bbtuna said about shooting Bp's in back without thinking about it made me smile. I've played a bit at a family oriented DYP tournament and they have some great young players. One of them became my little buddy as he was totally driven and soaked up all the info you could throw at him. Finally he got his own table and a monster was born, lol. He asked me if I would show him some more trick shots and I didn't know what he was talking about, not realizing he was talking about BP's. But when I played him I was amazed to eat a hard rocked BP that he reversed into a pull from the push side of the table, back cutting it and shooting it hard. This kid is 80lbs soaking wet and between him and his 14 year old cousin, they scare the crap out of most of the veterans.

Re: Back pins
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2011, 11:20:52 AM »
I realize this is an old post...  but I just wondered if the newer 3000 Platinum table is any friendlier for the back-pin. I am a "beginner" in that I haven't played much since about 2001, and even then I only spent about 8 years playing bars and local tourneys in the Denver area.  Never owned a table, and so never had a whole lot of time to dedicate to pure solo practice. This relegated me to the goalie position, which is just as well as I like it better in the pits anyhow. I wouldn't say that I am a back-pinner, but given the lack of a good set-shot, I relied on the back-pin to set up a lot of options, especially for passes or clears. I am going to pick up a new table in a couple of months (my first) and just wondered if the refresh to the man design, or any of the other small changes to the table had impacted rear pins to any degree.

thanks,

tannji