Author Topic: First sign of a blown goal  (Read 5502 times)

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Offline John M

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First sign of a blown goal
« on: January 12, 2010, 08:50:55 AM »
Hello,

On the table I just bought the inside of the goal is starting to round out a little....it is very subtle but I can see this being the first sign before chipping.

Does anyone have advice on some kind of adhesive or poly that you can put behind the goal wall and on the corner....or is it just inevitable.

Thanks

Offline bbtuna

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 12:20:48 PM »
here is what I have collected on the subject - for now, I have never heard of a for sure fool proof fix...I have an idea for the future but it is not simple and I need help in development...again, for now, here are your options - 3 approaches

Mark murrell 11/09
It can be slowed or stopped. Go to Walmart, in the section fingernail polish is find something called Hard as Nails. It similar to Krazy glue and is thin like water. Mask any area it might run to where you don't want it. Use a syringe to apply it to the MDF behind the white laminate chipping area. Use as much as the MDF will absorb which isn't much and you will need the slow control the syringe will give you. MDF will soak it up around the damage and become a pretty solid area behind the laminate. If your nervous doing this practice on a square edge of MDF inside the table like the prop stick so you have a feel for how much and how fast it will absorb before drying.

Johnny Lott

Any good woodworking two part expoxy can be used. Probably the easiest to work with is the two part clay like expoxy but that may be too thick for your needs depending on how blown out the wood already is?

Laminant is only as strong as what backs it up and unfortunately if the wood begins to chip its only a matter of time until the laminant chips as well. If this is an ongoing regular occurance with Tornado tables I would premptively treat the wood edge on both sides of both goals to harden it with the 2 part epoxy as soon as you buy the table.

Why? Because once the wood starts to deteriorate the problem is much harder to address.

Also make sure the goal edge of the laminant, (as well as the wood) has a good round over or slightly beveled edge all around the circumference of the goal!!! (a 1/8" round over should do just fine)

If the factory is not doing this properly that will also almost always result in the edges chipping. You can use a fine edged file or even sandpaper to create the proper beveled edge.

It is one of those small quality control things that makes the difference betweeen a quality table with a long life or well, NOT! It's the old weakest link in the chain theory - you can have a perfectly maintained used table but if the goals are blown out its value decreases considerably.

I am not completely familiar with the design of the top cabinet of Tornado, (so I would defer to Mark Murrell here) BUT you might? be able to dissassemble the top rebuild the wood edges with the expoxy (or replace them completely) and relaminate the end walls - if you a handyman and wanted to go to all the trouble? Again I'm guessing here?

Because Laminant by nature is brittle and easily chips on its own, or breaks, you do NOT want to use a rubber cement glue that gives - but something that drys hard and solid! Only a two part epoxy or something along that line of product will dry hard enough to provide a strong backer.

Kilowatt
speaking as a former professional furniture maker and longtime woodworker:

achieving a permanent fix is going to be a bit challenging. a cosmetic fix would be a piece of cake, but since you need something that will not only being basically cosmetically acceptable but also strong enough to endure being pounded by polyurethane balls, and ideally is flat and square to the original wall... that's the issue.

bondo is commonly used in furniture repair work where a filler is needed that doesn't expand or contract. beyond that, it does not have the physical strength to be an acceptable solution.

ideally, a high quality 2-part epoxy, like West System or System 3 (I've used System 3 a lot)- but not like the 2-part crap you can buy at Home Depot in the two tubes- would both bond with and strengthen the underlying damaged MDF substrate and also achieve a level of hardness probably sufficient to endure some level of impact.

problem is that these epoxies maintain some degree of viscosity until they cure (they all cure in an exothermic reaction, so increasing the temperature of the epoxy components prior to mixing will decrease the working time). they can be thickened using thickening agents that don't decrease structural integrity, but still, they're messy and will exhibit some degree of flow. so applying them to a vertical surface is going to require some significant cleanup afterward.

aside from the fact that high quality epoxies are pretty 'spensive, there's the other issue that epoxy doesn't stick well to epoxy that's already cured. so you kinda get one good shot at it.

the putty epoxies are all pretty much crap. not even remotely sufficient for this application. you can try it, but my money is on that stuff just getting knocked off within a day or so.

if the chipping is relatively minor, like less than a 1/4 of an inch in any dimension, i'd first clean the chipped out area using alcohol, then mask off all the nearby surfaces using blue tape (crucially important) and then apply a thickened epoxy using a fast-setting catalyst/hardener. Be sure to choose a thickener that is specifically for strength and not just gap-fill. Follow the directions on the epoxy, and let it cure for twice as long as the instructions indicate. Once fully cured, shape the epoxy with a little scraper or a little thumbnail sized square of sandpaper glued to a stick.

no real reason or benefit to attempting to patch additional laminate on.

if this is all too much, you can get a low-viscosity cyanoacrylate glue (kinda like crazy glue) that will wet the exposed MDF and penetrate into it, hardening it somewhat. again, quality low-viscosity cyanoacrylate isn't something home depot sells, but is pretty easy to find at your local Woodcraft or online.

why not use crazy glue? you can, but decent low-vis cyanoacrylate is a better product for the same price.


Offline jqhuynh

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 01:20:12 PM »
Great info BBTUNA, thanks.  For those of us fortunate enough to not have to deal with a blown goal.  Are there any preventive measures one could take to avoid blowing out a goal in the future?

Offline bbtuna

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 01:40:47 PM »
not really...i would use what Mark Murrell said...really, if you hit the edges enough times, they are going to eventually chip...said but true - have seen tables last for many years without chipping but its like small plane pilots...they say there are two kinds...those who have landed with the gear up and those who are going to

Offline jinhopark

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2010, 10:07:58 AM »
I am about to file an 1/8" round over and apply the Mark Murrell treatment to my 3 beloved Tornado tables (long story as to how I came to have 3 tables).  Is there a better way to apply that Hard as Nails stuff rather than a syringe?  For instance an old paintbrush or q-tip?  Also is it adviseable to apply more than 1 treatment?  For instance 2 or 3 coats Vs. just that first initial 1?

Offline EDGEER

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 02:06:45 PM »
I would not do the round over.  That will devalue the table.  If the laminate has lifted and is loose you will want to take a C-clamp with a small block of wood as a backup and glue it back down with super-glue.  Once the laminate is glued down start applying the super-glue to the exposed edge of the fiberboard.  As far as how much glue to use is concern, you want it to soak up as much as possible in the first application. The more that soaks into the fiberboard the better it will hold.  Apply many coats until it will not soak up any more.
 

Offline kayko2000

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 07:48:52 AM »
For some of our older generation Cyclones (which we had very quickly chipping goal edges), we just epoxied a thin piece of aluminum in front.  Not pretty, but does the job - and doesn't really cause the ball to bounce around in unexpected directions.  Most people here don't buy tables thinking they're going to sell them - so the resell value issue doesn't factor in.  On the other hand, back then, Tornado was also kind enough to replace those cabinets for free - because those cabinets were made in China and were chipping within the first year.

Offline jinhopark

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 02:11:09 PM »
Ok used the hard as nails stuff and put 2 coats...which is about all the mdf could absorb (at least in my mind).  I didn't use the syringe method that Murrell described as I did not feel it was necessary as the small container already came with a finger nail polish brush applicator which seemed to work out perfectly.  The only issue I had with applying the liquid was that the goal had very, very slight mushrooming and I felt it necessary to apply the stuff around and behind this highly potential chipping area.  So I put some on my fingertip (I figured if it is safe enough for fingernails then it should be safe enough from my finger, right?) and rubbed it on for a few coats.

I did not do the 1/8" Lott round over, as it was suggested it may devalue the table...and I did not feel it was necessary since the mushroomed area rounded it over already.

What I found interesting, and something I never noticed before...is that shots on goal can pretty much land near the top of the goal.  At first I thought I would only apply the treatment 1/2 way up the goal area, but as I looked at the goal the mushrooming went up past that.  I would imagine as you front pin the ball and smack it with a snake shot that the ball must lift while traveling...  For some reason I thought the goalie rod would prevent it from going up very high.

Anyways, the stuff is dried and other than looking a little "wet" (only if you really look for it) it is hardly noticeable and looks "oem stock"...which is what I like.  Tapping the side of the treated mdf Vs. the untreated mdf you can immediately tell the "hardness" from the thump.  Definitely worth the couple bucks and a few minutes time for some added insurance of knowing your Tornado will outlast you.

Thanks for all the great info guys!

Offline EDGEER

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 05:10:32 PM »
Wait until you play with some of the new 5 hour tumbled balls.  The ball will rise and hit above the goal sometimes. 

Offline jinhopark

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 07:41:10 PM »
Wait until you play with some of the new 5 hour tumbled balls.  The ball will rise and hit above the goal sometimes. 

Sadly I already have the 5 hour tumbled balls, but I have not experienced the above the goal shot yet...I definitely need more practice time.

Actually I was even thinking of going back to the non-tumbled balls, which is pretty much what they use at my local DYP.  After practicing (and using exclusively) with the 5 hour tumbled balls, and then when I go to my local DYP I find it much more difficult to front and back pin the ball and it feels like I am trying to catch a greased pig out there.  It takes a few games for me to get back used to the "slicker" ball, and I'm not very good to begin with.  I'll probably pick up some 2.5 hour tumbled balls the next time I am in Maryland, as that seems like a happy median.

Going back to the topic, should I just treat the whole goal area???  Even the top of the goal area?  I pretty much just went up 85% on both sides of the goal...

Offline natX

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 07:47:11 PM »
I know this thread is old, but just wanted to contribute my findings.

My goal on my 2000 Cyclone II just started to chip and I found this thread on repair. I went the low-viscosity cyanoacrylate (CA) glue route and ended up with an awesome repair. I can't believe that Tornado doesn't ship the tables like this. The inside edge of the MDF is like a rock now and there's no change in the dimension of the goal.

I found the CA at Amazon. Went with the "Super Thin". Put a small wood clamp on the area with some wax paper with medium pressure just to keep it all together.

Thanks for the great tips.

Offline AndyCBR

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Re: First sign of a blown goal
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 09:52:05 AM »
Old thread but relevant question:

Is the "hard as nails" product still viewed as the best preventative measure for the goal area?

The pic below is a tournament used table I bought (one state tourney) and the backside of the goal area exhibits some denting and rounding.  I believe this T3000 is a 2014 manufacture.

The front mouth of the goal has a nice round over from the factory which is good.

I like my new table but it is disappointing that VDLP hasn't come up with something better in this area.  At a minimum, laminating the backside of the goal board would be a start in the right direction.  This could be done prior to routing the goal mouth and require very little time and money.

Another idea I had from a manufacturing standpoint would be to make the goal board an easier to replace part.  Even if there would be a few visible seams or exposed fasteners on the cabinet I think it would be a fair tradeoff.