Author Topic: Zone defenses  (Read 8958 times)

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Offline willhawkes

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Zone defenses
« on: October 16, 2010, 10:42:19 PM »
Hi all,

I read a lot about "zone defense" but I have yet to find anything which adequately explains it in detail. I think I know the general idea - to have the 4 bars lined up in such a way as to minimize the number of open hole for goalie shots - but anything which expands on this - whether comment here or just a link to somewhere with more detail - would be great. I imagine there are differences between doubles and singles as wel?

Looking forward to hearing your ideas,

Will

Offline jkhFoos

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 01:11:36 PM »
When i play goalie i ask the forward how he/she wants me to cover when the ball is in the opponent's goal area. Usually the reply is- position to block the short push or short pull.  Sometimes it's- cover the middle.  i have one friend who says- watch my 5bar men & plug the gaps (therefore lots of lateral goalie movement in responce). The forward usually just wants something to depend on. i try to position the goalie man & a 2bar man "slightly greater" than one ball's width apart. That's how things start out anyway.  Good topic Will. i wouldn't mind hearing more on the subject also.   John 

Offline KX5

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 05:39:16 PM »
bumping this topic in hopes for more info also

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2011, 12:47:18 PM »
first of all, what is your philosophy, besides blocking, in setting up your "zone" D?  Assuming the opposing goalkeeper has the ball.
Do you or have you prioritized what you do the moment the opposing goalkeeper OR FORWARD has the ball?   If you haven't, or LOL, haven't really thought much about it lately while putting gas in your car or reading the funnies while evaluating the remaining sheets on that roll ... then...  1. What kills you when you're playing D on a good experienced goalkeeper? Shots on goal? Lanes passing to fwd? Quicksets?  2. Can you cooperate with your partner to do a synchronized, agreed upon zone D? Or do you end up having to adjust to him/her?  3. Do you still go with that decades-old take-the-short, take-the-long oldschool zone but is somehow missing something?
Shots on your goal by the goalkeeper
- Set shot? (from a pullset or pin near or at the wall, or a pullset at or near the penalty box line? center?)
- Motion shot? Like a tic-tac or stop-n-pause at or near either wall?
- Bank shots along your 3barline or the middle (classic)?
Passing brushdowns along the wall or lane
- Do the opponents have a practiced pass off the on-goal line (lane or wall/nearwall)?
- Do you have agreed responsibilities for this shot and this pass and that?
Prolly easiest if you first explain what you do or have been doing with your partner/s for zone D, and why or what theory you were using.. Then you can prolly be helped more easily.. Then folks on here can see if your theory or plan may need adjustment, or even drastic changes.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:50:02 PM by foozkillah »

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 05:36:54 PM »
Will, John and KX5..
Are all of you familiar with the Central Zone D I've laid out and discussed with BBTuna et al over the past couple of yrs?  There was some candid analysis there.. perhaps you guys could see some things you could discuss about it too.

Offline KX5

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2011, 11:45:41 PM »
Well i don't know about the other guys but i don't know what a central zone d is. I'm completely new to the game. So i don't really have a place to start from, that's what i was hoping to get form you guys.... like a pic or something on where my guys should be for certain shots... After that i think i can tweak it to suit my playing style...

I just know know what the basic principals are yet or where to start if that makes sense.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 11:51:07 PM »

Offline willhawkes

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 03:39:25 PM »
foozkillah, [and bbtuna], that thread is full of awesome advice, thanks for linking to it. Only challenge is trying to visualize everything but hey...

If I play back the learning as I understand it, it's broadly speaking to keep the 5 bar centered, use the goalie defense to shut down the lane on the side the shooting goalie has the ball (standard or reverse depending on spray or square shooter), and have the 3 bar go roaming in the areas between the wall and the dots. I'll try it.

Now... actually none of this answers my original question, which I didn't explain properly. I was asking in the context of SINGLES - and lacking an answer, I continue to take a pasting from 2 bar shooting goalies in the one-on-one game. For example, I recently lost a match to someone who scored 70% of their goals shooting spray pushes from the back. They just got in my head and picked me apart.

Now I have been trying something I read elsewhere on the net, essentially to put the 5 bar on the wall [side the goalie is shooting from] and use one hand left hand to position the goalie and defense to shut down the near side [of where the goalie is shooting from], important thing though, always having the 3 bar goalie [tornado] being closer to the center, otherwise there is a big hole which gets exploited.

Anyway, foozkillah and other professors of the game, really appreciate your thoughts on this subject. Thanks! Will

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 04:22:18 AM »
First off...
Where's he drilling you with that spray push.. from what spot and to what hole, usually?
Is he splitting your G and 2bar defending the 54-53 lane?  Is he quicksetting his natural spray angle once he gets to that takeoff spot?
Remember the principle that you just shut off the center of 54-53 lane with your G and 2bar man, so he HAS to shoot around the zone on either side.. just like you create a wall in soccer/football first against a direct free kick.  Get a flashlight on the table surface, point it from where he usually sprays and see if you're actually not closing that lane. And you have to have dynamic forward zone D, which means you go back and forth the first 3-4 seconds .. guarding either side of that protected lane, waiting to chop off any thing outside the lane. after 3-4 seconds (this stops quicksets) this is a normal set shot.. and you better:
1. find out which line he's usually shooting (perhaps two possible lines)
2. learn a 3bar motion that keeps those edges outside the lane guarded. (i usually do back and forth with a flick/randomly)
Back and forth means END-to-End (to either wall and back with the 3bar)  .. no cheating or feathering near where the ball is set.
This is a zone.. you set up a completely blocked center lane and wait to ambush on either side/
You'll be surprised how often you can also get or snag a shot right through that center lane if you:
1. Never get caught pausing with your 3bar in the middle (32man on big dot or center line)
2. You can pause at either wall, since that basically locks up two of the outside lanes.
It's not necessary to have the 5bar exactly in the middle.. adjust either side depending on the G shot.  Each opponent has their own personal lanes they prefer (these are also their automatic/quickset lanes)..
NOTE: Probably better not to lock on to the ball, just be aware of where it is and concentrate on closing the zone.

Offline willhawkes

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 04:41:34 PM »
FK... thanks so much.  replies below...

- Where's he drilling you with that spray push.. from what spot and to what hole, usually?

They were using a slow tic-tac, shooting from the sweet spot if you know what I mean, half way along the range of the near man push e.g. half way between the wall and the dots, more or less.

- Is he splitting your G and 2bar defending the 54-53 lane?  Is he quicksetting his natural spray angle once he gets to that takeoff spot?

Yes... splitting the defense. On the far side of goal, it's difficult with one hand to make the adjustment to switch to defend the other way around.

- Remember the principle that you just shut off the center of 54-53 lane with your G and 2bar man, so he HAS to shoot around the zone on either side.. just like you create a wall in soccer/football first against a direct free kick.  Get a flashlight on the table surface, point it from where he usually sprays and see if you're actually not closing that lane.

This is singles, right... so I understand the idea is to centre the 5 bar (unmoving), use the G and 2 bar to shut down the inside lane (one hand / two rods) and then roam like a shark with the 3 bar?

- And you have to have dynamic forward zone D, which means you go back and forth the first 3-4 seconds .. guarding either side of that protected lane, waiting to chop off any thing outside the lane. after 3-4 seconds (this stops quicksets) this is a normal set shot.. and you better: 1. find out which line he's usually shooting (perhaps two possible lines) 2. learn a 3bar motion that keeps those edges outside the lane guarded. (i usually do back and forth with a flick/randomly)

This may be where I had problems, essentially a very accurate shooter who was picking their holes consistently.

Is there any of this stuff on Youtube, so much easier to understand when seeing it visually. I love the tip about using a torch, that's really good.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 11:53:15 PM »
FK... thanks so much.  replies below...They were using a slow tic-tac, shooting from the sweet spot if you know what I mean, half way along the range of the near man push e.g. half way between the wall and the dots, more or less.
;;
So he does shoot from a pretty consistent spot or "release point," like most humans do..  Put the torch there, lit up and pointing out the lane he uses to split your men... easy practice start.. begin by setting up against a 2 bar pull shot on your near side and figure out where you can be moving your 3bar back and forth to to be always cutting that line shown by the torch's beam. If the lane is right through your 54-53 center lane, duhhhhhh, then you're not setting up the G and 2bar correctly.  That . ahem... is NOT A CENTRE ZONE D.  Not a FOOZKILLAH CENTRE ZONE.
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Quote from: willhawkes
Quote from: foozkillah
- Is he splitting your G and 2bar defending the 54-53 lane?  Is he quicksetting his natural spray angle once he gets to that takeoff spot?
Yes... splitting the defense. On the far side of goal, it's difficult with one hand to make the adjustment to switch to defend the other way around.
;;
There's a quick answer... if he consistently shoots a push, and if you do leave your G and 2bar in standard position (using the G and the near 2bar figure). then you just have to tighten that hole.. use the torch to see what makes it virtually impossible to go anywhere thru the 54-53 center lane... usually a little adjustment to move your 2bar up a little more is all that is needed. There are two ways for the G and 2bar to make it easy to switch from the 54-53 to the 53-52 lane:
1. against more natural 2bar spray-shots (especially in-motion or quicksets):
__a. 54-53 (far Centre lane): G in middle, 2bar all the way to the far wall.
__b. 53-52 (near Centre lane) G in middle, 2bar on your nearside. 
__c. switching against back n forth: leave 5bar near middle, one leftie move of the 2bar.. very easy, very simple.
2. against squarer/power 2bar shots:
__a. 54-53 (far Centre lane): nearest 2bar figure at or near middle,  G closing the 54-53 lane on far side.
__b. 53-52 (near Centre lane): nearest 2bar figure at or near middle, G closing lane on your side.
__c. switching against back n forth: leave 5bar near middle, one leftie move of the Gbar, also easy, also quite simple.
;;
Quote from: willhawkes
Quote from: foozkillah
- Remember the principle that you just shut off the center of 54-53 lane with your G and 2bar man, so he HAS to shoot around the zone on either side.. just like you create a wall in soccer/football first against a direct free kick.  Get a flashlight on the table surface, point it from where he usually sprays and see if you're actually not closing that lane.
This is singles, right... so I understand the idea is to centre the 5 bar (unmoving), use the G and 2 bar to shut down the inside lane (one hand / two rods) and then roam like a shark with the 3 bar?
;;
The 5bar can be still, or moving slightly (some rotate in place) or you can feather it so the two center lanes, the 54-53 and 53-52 are either closer to either your nearside or away... YOU ADJUST (you dictate where the Center zone lanes ARE!) these to force the center lanes where over 95 percent of shots on goal are going to have to go through!  Start at dead center but adjust to conform ... for ex. a lot of 2bar shooters will pull from further off your near wall but push from nearer or at their own near wall.  Observe.. adjust to face and match their near and far release points from the 2bar.  Re-adjust when (not if) they change their release points from the 2bar.
;;
Quote from: willhawkes
Quote from: foozkillah
- And you have to have dynamic forward zone D, which means you go back and forth the first 3-4 seconds .. guarding either side of that protected lane, waiting to chop off any thing outside the lane. after 3-4 seconds (this stops quicksets) this is a normal set shot.. and you better: 1. find out which line he's usually shooting (perhaps two possible lines) 2. learn a 3bar motion that keeps those edges outside the lane guarded. (i usually do back and forth with a flick/randomly)
This may be where I had problems, essentially a very accurate shooter who was picking their holes consistently.
;;
Picking accurate holes means he's practiced with enough discipline to come up with one or more lanes where shooting just a natural spray means the more he does it, the more consistent the shot becomes and the less energy to force a release point without any strain to execute.  But the more consistent/natural/automatic the release point and lane, the easier to adjust your center zone where he HAS TO EXERT EFFORT to shoot outside that center zone.  Don't even worry about anything going through that lane!  Make sure your 5bar is pointed to block back anything that hits it, and your G and 2bar too.  WORRY about what he may try to do like a very sharp shot to your far goal corner (the short as they call it) or a long, trying to go past your zone.  YOU MUST BE WAITING TO AMBUSH if the shot goes through either side of that central zone! .. Dynamic D is the back and forth 3bar motion, but randomized, where your 3bar is always going either to one side or the other. anything through the center lane:
1. if you miss it, it should be blocked by 5bar or the G & 2bar.  CATCH THE REBOUND. HE JUST GAVE UP A POSSESSION!
2. if you are close enough with the 3bar when he releases through the lane .. just continue the motion and stuff or block if you can do this without losing guard over the two sides of the lane.  In other words.. block with the 3bar ONLY if it's in stride with your rhythm or back n forth series. A stuff/spike/steal is icing on the cake, BUT even just deflecting a shot is already an EPIC FAIL for him.
__- Absolutely the same as any zone in basketball or soccer ... trust that you've absolutely blocked off any "idiot" shots/attacks through the lane, stuff or steal those slow ones (mi***s or timed shots) through the lane, and be alert and let nothing by on either side.
__- Remember that the Central zone is the antithesis of the old "G and 2bar take the short, 5 and 3 bars take the middle and long".  ANY decent back n forth motion by the goalkeeper against the ancient "short-long D" will force really difficult adjustments on your part as he goes from either side or menaces your center.  The Centre zone D, on the other hand, will force a 2bar shot to be extremely short or extremely long (much squarer too!).. TRY THIS YOURSELF AND SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS.  Set up correct 54-53 Centre zone and try pushing 2bar shots against it!  Or vice versa with the 53-52! Also see how you start to steal lose balls and possessions more and more easily as you now get a consistent position of your rods to snag loose balls and rebounds. Especially in SINGLES.
;;
Quote from: willhawkes
Is there any of this stuff on Youtube, so much easier to understand when seeing it visually. I love the tip about using a torch, that's really good.
;;
Yes my friend and I made some really bad quality ones a couple of years ago.. I've pulled those (or was it I was too lazy when Youtube changed? LOL!) I've moved since then (away from my friend's nice authoring software AND his table) but the next time I settle down, I'll remake these with better graphics.
And actually there's that redlaser LED tool that replaces the plumbline and dry ink used in construction for decades.  it can be laid down or attached and draw a red laser line for cutting, for marking off where cornices, kickboards, tiles et al, need to be laid.  That, with its long-life LED light, is pretty awesome, because it's built to stay on, and to make a nice line, not like those cheaper LED flash keyfobs for cars and trucks.
;;

Offline willhawkes

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »
My god Foozkillah you are awesome. Thanks so much. Wish I could meet you and go through this face to face / with a table and torch but will do my best to picture it all in my head and learn and improve.

Respect my friend!

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 07:26:31 PM »
You're welcome, Will!
There are also a couple of drills built to build up loose ball catching skills... they're also fun if you count.
Assuming you've gotten comfy with a central Zone, in doubles, singles or both... then there should be a lot
more loose balls due to deflections and forced harder shots (to the very short and the very long)...
You have to practice your shake'n'bake !
;;
Also, remember that the end-to-end motion of a dynamic 3bar zone D is most critical within the first 3-5
seconds of the opp goalkeeper getting control of the ball.  Past that... usually the goalkeeper will go to a
set shot from either the far or near wall, or from the center (especially bankshooters and passers).  Don't
give up natural quicksets and natural softie lane passes or clears because you haven't set up.  The more
you do the zone, the more you start leaving the rods in at least the basic defensive zone position. Very
relaxing, especially in singles, or against good/great goalkeepers who play very fast to catch you sleeping.
;;
I find it easier the moment the opp goalkeeper has the ball to immediately move the 3bar almost end-to-end.
Not even looking except for the general location of the ball.  It's like a reflex of treading water in the pool
or in the ocean.  One can slow down or even stop, as long as the 3bar ends up on or near either wall, which
automatically means the outside dots area are always covered. That means whenever you stop or even just
pause... the outside dots on either side of the center line are COVERED.  You can use the torch to see what
holes if any are left open as long as your 5bar is situated at or near the center of the tablefield.
;;
As for the drills, if you're interested in honing your forward allround skills, they're not just technique, they're also
burnout drills LOL!  These are built to remove the bad natural reaction habit of trying to stab stop loose balls.
;;

Offline willhawkes

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 05:45:31 PM »
Thanks for all the thoughts here guys.

On a related theme, I recently heard two terms describing defense which I wasn't familiar with, i) double post defense, ii) L defense. Appreciate anything anyone knows!

Offline Michael E

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Re: Zone defenses
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 08:57:16 AM »
First off...
Where's he drilling you with that spray push.. from what spot and to what hole, usually?
Is he splitting your G and 2bar defending the 54-53 lane?  Is he quicksetting his natural spray angle once he gets to that takeoff spot?
Remember the principle that you just shut off the center of 54-53 lane with your G and 2bar man, so he HAS to shoot around the zone on either side.. just like you create a wall in soccer/football first against a direct free kick.  Get a flashlight on the table surface, point it from where he usually sprays and see if you're actually not closing that lane. And you have to have dynamic forward zone D, which means you go back and forth the first 3-4 seconds .. guarding either side of that protected lane, waiting to chop off any thing outside the lane. after 3-4 seconds (this stops quicksets) this is a normal set shot.. and you better:
1. find out which line he's usually shooting (perhaps two possible lines)
2. learn a 3bar motion that keeps those edges outside the lane guarded. (i usually do back and forth with a flick/randomly)
Back and forth means END-to-End (to either wall and back with the 3bar)  .. no cheating or feathering near where the ball is set.
This is a zone.. you set up a completely blocked center lane and wait to ambush on either side/
You'll be surprised how often you can also get or snag a shot right through that center lane if you:
1. Never get caught pausing with your 3bar in the middle (32man on big dot or center line)
2. You can pause at either wall, since that basically locks up two of the outside lanes.
It's not necessary to have the 5bar exactly in the middle.. adjust either side depending on the G shot.  Each opponent has their own personal lanes they prefer (these are also their automatic/quickset lanes)..
NOTE: Probably better not to lock on to the ball, just be aware of where it is and concentrate on closing the zone.

This is quite helpful sugeesitons. I love it and will use it when necessary