Author Topic: Euro Front Pin  (Read 8434 times)

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Offline DeMarco

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Euro Front Pin
« on: September 27, 2012, 12:45:55 PM »
I've been a pullshot guy for years, just started working on snake shots when I bought my Shelti 300 a couple months ago but have decided that I really want to learn to play the front pin Euro shot. When I started playing a lot I was living in Europe so even if I have a higher percentage with a pullshot I'd like to have this as an option for nostalgia and bragging rights when I play with friends.

I can pin the ball, walk it a little, I just don't seem to have the snap right. Maybe that just comes with time? I assume an open hand grip is the only option as you're supposed to roll the handle on your wrist to get the snap, but I just whiff when I try to do that.

So, any videos, hints or tips, experiences, or whatever with this shot would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! I've only come across one video with tips but it was in Korean. Watching certainly helped but a little more walk through and explanation would be nice so I know if I'm even doing it right.

Thanks!

Offline grandmaster

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 04:08:51 PM »
  The wrist or closed hand can also be used for the front pin with a little practice. GM

Offline jagiar

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 06:57:59 PM »
Ok., first things first.  The success of the Euro pin and how long it will take to master it is highly dependant on what table you play on.  If you play Tornado, prepare for some considerable level of fustration.  I am a Garlando player and on Garlandos the pin is 'pretty' easy.  I use the pin as my primary shot and I think (without trying to sound immodest) that my pin is pretty good.  I can go both sides at will at about 90%, cut from the near to the the far side and vice versa, do the straight, and walk it as well as fake it.  When I transition to my Tornado table, it takes a few days of shooting and adjustments to get it to acceptable levels (and I know what needs to be done and I still have trouble adjusting).  Pins are best learnt on Euro tables before venturing on American tables with the shot.

That's out of the way...

When doing the pin, you shouldn't roll your hand down to your wrist.  If you've gone to the wrist, you've gone way to far along the hand.  The best pin shooters roll the handle only slightly - to where the 'meaty' part of the palm ends (the best way to describe where is to stretch out your hand and fingers and thumb - now draw a straight line along the inside of the thumb into the palm.  There).  That's as far as you need to go - which is about one inch from grip position.  Now, that being said, in order to go long pull side on the pin while only rolling down to the meat of the palm will necessitate pulling the rod very fast towards you.  On the pull side, the roll of the handle and the pulling of the rod are all one fluid motion.  The only way I can describe is to say it is similar to Pappas's pull shot.  It's almost like a muscle twitch more than a motion.  But, obviously, in order to get to that level, you'll need to practice to get the speed up (both pulling and rolling).  On the far side, things are different.  I've heard it said somewhere that, generally, snake shooters prefer the far side, while pin shooters prefer the near side.  I think this is true and the reason being (for the pin shooters), is that the far side pin is tough.  And the reason it's tough is because it's contrary to the average person's natural body movements.  You need to push a rod and then immediately pull it back to towards you as you roll the handle.  That's right, on the far side you need to square off the shot to get long on the far side.  Collignon, the best pin shooter, almost always sqaures off his long far side pin.  In order to do this, you'll need to pin the ball off centre with the man sitting on the the ball more towards you then top centre.  Then you roll the ball away from you with a quick push of the handle, come around the ball, and sqaure off the far side shot by pulling the rod back toward you and rolling the handle to the meat of the palm and back again, all in one motion.  You pin the ball withe the man more towards you then you do top centre so as to give the ball a chance to roll towards the far side before your man gets there to square off the shot.  If you pin the ball top dead centre, then when you push the ball towards the far side, you'll have over skated it when it's time to sqaure off and you'll roll the handle and shoot the air because the ball won't be there.  It hasn't had a chance to roll into place yet.  If you pin it with the man towards you, then when you roll it into place, your man is almost having to chase the ball to square it off.  That's what you want.

That's the best I can describe it.  I think ThisWeekInFoosball has a vid of Collignon's grip on Youtube somewhere.

Offline jagiar

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 07:06:52 PM »

Offline Malamir

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 04:41:47 AM »
DeMarco, you have started a great thread. I'm also trying to use this as a main shot for a couple of months now.

Here are the only tutorials I could find on the web (I think they're in Taiwanese):
     Tutorial Pull-side Europin-shot 手足球教學-歐式前壓式射門 (拉)-高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akeT51kieWo
     Tutorial Center Europin-shot 手足球教學 歐式pin中間射門 - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HVr3dz49A&feature=relmfu
     Tutorial Push-side Europin-shot 手足球教學 - 歐式pin推射 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZ8noE1Dmc

     Tutorial Europin-Angle Shot 手足球教學 歐式Pin斜射 - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcQ4_Xy1vMI&feature=relmfu
and some more general tutorial
     Europin Shot Tutorial 手足球歐式射門教學 by Benno - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gq7Pw5H7Cs

Here is a tutorial in German:
     Pin-Shot.de | Pin Shot Grundlagen Tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yDeZ6iObOU&feature=relmfu

Here in the pile of great shots you can see some nice slow-motions of front pin. (German language)
     Best of Kicker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=310SemWS-gs

Here is a vid from the 1980's from Dieter Thielle (German language):
     Dieter Thiele: Die Affenhand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T28Mie2Zb0

Jagiar, I see that in Taiwanese and Rico's (Collignons) vids the ball moves parallel to the goal. While on the German tutorials the ball kind of curves and gets almost bellow the 3-bar. Do you have some comments on this? I find it easier to curve the ball but I still need a recoil. Is it better to play it Belgian-Taiwanese style or stick to the German style?

Offline jagiar

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 10:20:17 AM »
DeMarco, you have started a great thread. I'm also trying to use this as a main shot for a couple of months now.

Here are the only tutorials I could find on the web (I think they're in Taiwanese):
     Tutorial Pull-side Europin-shot 手足球教學-歐式前壓式射門 (拉)-高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akeT51kieWo
     Tutorial Center Europin-shot 手足球教學 歐式pin中間射門 - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HVr3dz49A&feature=relmfu
     Tutorial Push-side Europin-shot 手足球教學 - 歐式pin推射 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URZ8noE1Dmc

     Tutorial Europin-Angle Shot 手足球教學 歐式Pin斜射 - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcQ4_Xy1vMI&feature=relmfu
and some more general tutorial
     Europin Shot Tutorial 手足球歐式射門教學 by Benno - 高樂集運動用品 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gq7Pw5H7Cs

Here is a tutorial in German:
     Pin-Shot.de | Pin Shot Grundlagen Tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yDeZ6iObOU&feature=relmfu

Here in the pile of great shots you can see some nice slow-motions of front pin. (German language)
     Best of Kicker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=310SemWS-gs

Here is a vid from the 1980's from Dieter Thielle (German language):
     Dieter Thiele: Die Affenhand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T28Mie2Zb0

Jagiar, I see that in Taiwanese and Rico's (Collignons) vids the ball moves parallel to the goal. While on the German tutorials the ball kind of curves and gets almost bellow the 3-bar. Do you have some comments on this? I find it easier to curve the ball but I still need a recoil. Is it better to play it Belgian-Taiwanese style or stick to the German style?

Malamir,

Yes, the Germans have dissected the pin shot rather extensively and this is what I know from their websites and my own experience on 'curving' vs. 'parallel' movement of the ball.  When you toss the ball in a curved fashion so that it drifts below the bar before the shot, the shot comes off  somewhat slower but you get a straighter shot to the goal.  Thus, less recoil is needed (especially to the push side).  This is usually done when you're looking to shoot to 1 to 1 1/2 ball distances from the centre of the goal.  When you curve the ball, by default, the man becomes directly behind the ball at the point of the shot, so there's less need for recoil.  Tossing the ball parallel to the goal means a quicker shot but then you'll tend to be moving into 'spray' territory.  In order to compensate for any possible spray, you'll need to either recoil or develop super quick speed like Collignon (as well develop several 'options' on the shot).  This is because the ball now is rolling in a straight line and you'll need to catch up to it and move around it to shoot straight, which will require a recoil because you need to get around it before you can get behind it.  A required recoil means, be necessity, speed.  But I find that a parrallel toss to the pull side still allows me to shoot straight to the long hole without the need to recoil.  This is because the pull side pin is so natural to a person's body mechanics.  You can instantly stop your arm from pulling something, but it seems somewhat harder to stop it pushing something once your arm has taken off at blistering speed.

Walking the ball on the pin is a great way to throw your opponent off guard and force him to open holes that you want to shoot to.  But walking and faking is an art and shouldn't be tried until you can a) stand still and shoot either side and b) rock the ball back and forth and shoot either side.  Once you've gotten these down with lightning speed, then progress to walking and faking, developing your own techniques that feel comfortable to you.  If you try to walk and fake before being able to do a) and b) you'll be bound to be fustrated because your arm has to learn to do the shot with differing distances to the intended hole before it has learned the mechanics.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:35:36 AM by jagiar »

Offline DeMarco

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 10:46:46 AM »
Wow guys!

Thanks a lot for all the great info. I've got a lot to work on it seems. I was trying to walk the ball around and then shoot. I'm glad one of you mentioned that walking the ball should come later (maybe I'm ahead of the game, as I can walk it just fine just can't shoot it very fast from that)

Keep all the comments coming on this! I know it's a tough shot and not usually the preferred method for most people but it's fun and it certainly looks impressive when done correctly.

Offline SilentSam

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »
I'm a Tornado tournament player who shoots a front pin, and can comment further.

Reading jagiar's description set off some alarms. He states that to do a square push side, you have to set up the ball in a specific way. Avoid this, as its a BIG tell that you're going push side. Ideally you want to be able to square the push side pinning the ball from ANY side so that tells don't exist.

Also a note about recoil: you only want to start your recoil motion the moment before the man comes into contact with the ball. My push side starts with fast lateral movement, and the backswing starts the moment the man surpasses the ball. I'm still continuing the pushside lateral movement when my upswing initiates, and this very quickly goes into the hard recoil movement an instant before the man strikes the ball as said before. This allows the stroke to be smoother, longer and faster with less wasted movement.

Offline Malamir

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 05:46:33 AM »
@Jagiar: Thank you for the explanation on the curved vs parallel ball. I have to work on my recoil. I still can't get it right. It's either too fast and I get back diagonal or too slow and I get sprayed. I guess it takes a lot of practice.

@SilentSam: You are right. One should not leave reads on which side he will shoot.

@DeMarco: I think your level in handling the euro pin is much closer to my level than to Jagiar's or SilentSams :).
When I train the euro pin I set the ball right in front of the center of the goal. I rock the ball (moving the ball left and right without losing contact between the center man and the ball) but not walk it. Walking is designed to put the defence off balance - but since in the practice session the defence is stationary I prefer to train just the speed and precision.
At first I was setting the defence rods in some "natural" position. Like the 2-bar on the 2nd hole and the goalie on the 4th hole. From that position I tried to shoot the different holes. I was able to score in the 1st and the 5th hole and I was proud with myself. But in a real game I was rarely achieving the same results. My shots to the 1st and the 5th hole were blocked by the defence. At first I couldn't tell why but then I found that I'm spraying a lot. The difference was that in a real game the defence is MOVING and even a couple of mm can block my spray.
A month later I went to watch a foosball open tournament. I saw some top 50 and top 100 in action and in practice between the games. When they were practising their shots they were setting the defence rods both the 2bar and the goalie on the 2nd hole and they were shooting the first hole (the same with the 4th hole when shooting the 5th). Also the 2nd bar men are pointing to the ball while the goalie is pointing the goal. This way you have only the straight shot and no sprays.
I tried this and I felt the pain. I couldn't score 1st or 5th from the center and even when setting the ball on the 2nd or 4th hole :) (1 ball distance). With some practice now I'm able to shoot 1st hole (push) like 5 out of 8 and only 4 out of 8 on the 5th hole (pull) from the center. This improved my scoring in actual games a lot. Now the defence has to move more than a couple of mm :) Also the big advantage is that when you shoot well on the 1st and the 5th holes you get a lot more chances on the straight shot (3rd hole).
I still need to work on the speed though. My shot is like the slow-mo speed of masters shots. I use the curving - I should work on the recoil to be able to set the ball on the 1st hole and shoot straight on the 5th... but that's not gonna come soon :)

Offline jagiar

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 10:16:24 AM »
I'm a Tornado tournament player who shoots a front pin, and can comment further.

Reading jagiar's description set off some alarms. He states that to do a square push side, you have to set up the ball in a specific way. Avoid this, as its a BIG tell that you're going push side. Ideally you want to be able to square the push side pinning the ball from ANY side so that tells don't exist.

Also a note about recoil: you only want to start your recoil motion the moment before the man comes into contact with the ball. My push side starts with fast lateral movement, and the backswing starts the moment the man surpasses the ball. I'm still continuing the pushside lateral movement when my upswing initiates, and this very quickly goes into the hard recoil movement an instant before the man strikes the ball as said before. This allows the stroke to be smoother, longer and faster with less wasted movement.

Sam,

As much as I agree that you don't want to show any tells, my advice to set up the ball a certain way comes automatically once you've learned to walk the ball and is nearly undetectable once you walk the ball fast enough.  If you don't set up the ball that way, then you are not getting full lateral push to the corner of the net.  Only setting up the ball this way will allow you to get almost deadball push side, otherwise, your push isn't fast enough or you're not getting enough extension (in which case a good defender covering his '1-ball off centre and far side' 3/4's to 4/5's of the net with a random shuffle defense will stop you).  This is on Garlando anyway.  On Tornado, the size of the net in comparison to the men and ball is different, so you might be able to accomplish it.  I'll try to Youtube a demo.

Although I do totally agree with your second paragraph.  It's a good description of the recoil movement.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 04:22:30 PM by jagiar »

Offline DeMarco

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 11:21:19 AM »
Thanks again for all the info guys. I took some of your pointers and info into consideration on Friday night and although I didn't play strictly the Euro FrontPin it certainly came in handy. I had a few rough shots here or there but I tend to do that regardless of the type of shot I pick for a game. I put a few really impressive ones away with this shot when my buddies got sick of me playing the snake so it was fun and I could tell the guys who had been to Europe were impressed. I find this to be a really great looking shot when done right.

I think I just need to keep playing it more and more to get the experience and muscle memory. I'm hoping my speed picks up and I can just naturally progress into walking the ball a little more, although I did that a little the other night with some success. I'm guessing fakes will progress naturally as well once I play it more often?

A youtube demo would be awesome for any of the things we've talked about in this thread! Right now I'm probably the most well versed one of my friends in foosball so I don't have anyone to emulate or watch play and make sure I'm doing similar things, especially for this shot.

Offline SilentSam

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 02:58:05 PM »
Sam,

As much as I agree that you don't want to show any tells, my advice to set up the ball a certain way comes automatically once you've learned to walk the ball and is nearly undetectable once you walk the ball fast enough.  If you don't set up the ball that way, then you are not getting full lateral push to the corner of the net.  Only setting up the ball this way will allow you to get almost deadball push side, otherwise, your push isn't fast enough or you're not getting enough extension (in which case a good defender covering his '1-ball off centre and far side' 3/4's to 4/5's of the net with a random shuffle defense will stop you).  This is on Garlando anyway.  On Tornado, the size of the net in comparison to the men and ball is different, so you might be able to accomplish it.  I'll try to Youtube a demo.

Undetectable really is in the eye of the beholder... what you may perceive as undetectable may be a pretty big tell for some veteran  defenders. This is known  as a 'hitch'  in your shot,  and I use it as an indicator for defending against quite a few snake shooters. Eric Dunn for one uses this against defenders, and worked his snake to incorporate rocks, half rocks, and hitches to open holes on defenders who read this.

I guess I'd have to see your pin to know for certain, but I stand firmly by my reasoning for not relying on a differing startup for a push side pin.

Offline DeMarco

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 04:11:05 PM »
Not sure if there's a way to embed vids in here or not but I thought this match really showed some great frontpin shots by Collignon. They even added some slow mo so I'm starting to understand how the fakes/walking is supposed to work. There are a bunch of vids that show him playing his front pin but this was the clearest video for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm8os-bfYRw&feature=related

Offline jagiar

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 05:23:35 PM »
Not sure if there's a way to embed vids in here or not but I thought this match really showed some great frontpin shots by Collignon. They even added some slow mo so I'm starting to understand how the fakes/walking is supposed to work. There are a bunch of vids that show him playing his front pin but this was the clearest video for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm8os-bfYRw&feature=related

DeMarco,

Thanks for this link.  It shows EXACTLY what I'm talking about with the man set up off the ball when going to the far side.  Collignon does not shoot a push side pin until about 4:00 into the match.  Then watch the replay at the 4:06 mark.   Collignon sets up the pin off centre with the man towards him.  Why? Because he is already to the right of the net and he sees the opening on the far push side.  He knows that in order to get there with full extension (around the defender) and square off the shot he needs to set up the ball off centre.  Otherwise the ball will not get there in time.  It's textbook Collignon push side pin and that is how you should be praticing the pin to the push side.  Otherwise you are short-changing yourself because your arm will never learn to get as deadbar as possible to the push side.  Now Collignon only stood still on the ball for a split second and went deep push side.  At that moment that he sat there, could you tell he was going to go far side?  No.  Even after you've watched the replay and knew that was the shot, when you go back and watch that moment again at full speed, you still can't tell when he's going to release because he's walking and, as Sam said, 'hitching'.  There's no tell, as much as anyone would like to tell you they can spot the tell (no disrespect Sam).  When you're walking the ball quickly, this off centre set up comes almost automatically because you've stopped the ball and your arm natuarally over compensates slightly so that once the ball stops, you're sitting on the ball where you want it to be.  He does the EXACT same thing at 5:23, 7:44 (his opponent does it at 8:18), 9:37, etc.  In fact, I think the only push side pins that aren't executed this way in the whole video (by either team) is the one by RC at 10:29 (the reason he didn't do it was because he was already all the way over on the push side when he set up the ball) and at 12:34.

Setting up the ball this way is a natural consequence of being able to walk, shuffle and hitch the pin shot well.  A good example is the close up replay at 12:00.  Once you're at this level, there are no tells.

Offline SilentSam

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Re: Euro Front Pin
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 07:39:24 PM »
OK, to begin, I thought you were originally talking about pinning the man on the far right side of the ball, not just the right side of the net, which was why I brought up the hitch. In either case, this is bad practice.

Collignon sets up the pin off centre with the man towards him.  Why? Because he is already to the right of the net and he sees the opening on the far push side.  He knows that in order to get there with full extension (around the defender) and square off the shot he needs to set up the ball off centre.  Otherwise the ball will not get there in time. 

This is not the case. Collignon can hit deadman push from ANYWHERE. If he couldn't, no defender would respect his push side unless he was to the right of the net. Either the hole is open or it isn't. Yes, Collignon does spend quite a bit of time with the ball set to the right of center, but he is perfectly capable of hitting a square fast push from dead center, just as he is if the ball is set to the left of the net. Also, when he is on this aforementioned spot, he's capable of hitting a really nice middle (and he does have to move the ball to hit it), a really nice deadman pull, and a pull cutback to the middle. His walking in this video is sporadic, and he often comes right back to this spot instantly, where he shot probably over 3/4 of his shots from. Watch enough Collignon videos, though, and you'll see that he literally can do anything that he wants.

If you constantly practice push side from solely the right of the net, then you'll only be able to hit push side from there. This is fine, as long as you aren't walking the ball all the time, and you set your pin there and rock. If you're walking the ball, and you're not to the right of the net, are you going to choose to shoot the push side? If you do, will you hit it? As a defender, I have the upper hand if you're walking the ball and you're either located dead center, or to the left of the net, since now you're in a situation where your push side is weak. This is again a tell.

Walking the ball is only truly effective if you can hit every hole from any position, as well as hitch options going for splits. This is why you have to practice pushes, pulls, and big dot middles from everywhere in front of the net, and make them effectively fast, square, with no tells.

And back to the necessity of being more to the right for scoring deep push side: Watch video of one of the greatest German pin shooters of all time, Frank Brauns. He definitely sets up right in the middle the majority of the time, and rarely even walks the ball. He absolutely nails deep push side.

So to reiterate, I'm not saying to avoid practicing a pushside from this spot, I'm saying avoid making this the only spot you shoot push from (edit: unless you want to make this your primary set. If so, walk the ball sparingly). There's a big difference.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 08:19:03 PM by SilentSam »