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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: Old Meister on October 27, 2007, 08:43:32 PM
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What wonderful time! We were introduced to foosball with the Italian tables that had hard thin men and hard balls. To play well you had to learn how to control the ball through touch. You couldn't pin th ball to control it, you had to do it by touch, everything was with in the range going around the ball with your man. Reversal shots were lightening fast, guys could dance that ball like you wouldn't believe before deciding what direction to take it. Push or pull kicks were uses but pulls and pushes were the rule.
Then came the German tables, Deutcher Meisters. Soft men and soft balls, perfect control but slow. What a chess match, foosball as it should be. Banks worked, everything worked, but it had to be done well. Then came Tournament Soccer tables. They had their green top tables which were somewhere in between the Italian and German tables but then they went to their blue tops which were much like the German tables in play. If that was the table that was used from that time on it would have been a good thing. All shots were possible on that table. Then in a move to make money they made the Brown top TS table. Big handles, light rods, hard men and soft balls. Palm shots became THE shot(they suck) and the game degressed in my opinion. Soon computer games killed the trend and many of us who played for years found the sport we loved was dying. That is how it was for me. How I would love to play as I used to, to show you kids some shots that maybe you never saw before. Imagine a pass to the front and a pin followed by a squeeze pull in the middle that squirts to the far man and is angled in all in fraction of a second. That's what I'm talking bout.
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well put old meister well put them where the days
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I can see your side to it, but all sports over time change and people are gonna always look back at the good ole days when there was no 3 pointer, wooden tennis racquets, golf clubs made of wood, etc. etc. I like the way the sport is because being a beginner, I want to learn all of the shots I've seen from open handed to pushs, to pulls, to rollovers, you name it. I think the diversity is what makes the game so great, but I think its the unwillingness to change with tthe sport that has hindered it over the years as well. MAybe I'm just the type of person that likes to see a tennis ball served 150 mph, or a baseball hit so far, or even Lebron nail seven 3 pointers in a game...but then again im younger than most of you and thats my opinion....
happy foosin
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Old Meister, your post brought a smile to my face! Only today I was talking to my wife, who is 13 years my junior, about how I learned to play foosball in the early 70s in Greece. The tables must have been the Italian kind because they were much larger in size than the current "toy" versions, the players were huge in comparison, and our games were thus fast and furious. Oh how I now long to find one of those tables here in the states so I can buy it. I remember the sweat poring down my body, from hours of play, and would love to experience this sensation once more! As much as I try to explain the differences of yesteryear from what the game is today, to my younger friend players, I am afraid my words always fail to make my point so showing them what/how we played back then is the only viable option.
Any info on how I can get a hold of this type table will be very much appreciated!
gcp
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gotta agree with Chance here...
how many people would watch the NBA if there were no slam dunks or no 3-pointers??? absolutly NOBODY!!!!!! All sports have evolved, it is just the way it is. Try playing baseball these days with a 5-fingered glove! The only way to get more people to want to play and possibly watch foosball is to make it fast, exciting, and easy to learn. Long live the Snake, tic-tacs, Left hooks, sling shots, and the AIREAL!!!!!!
thomas rios
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Rios, maybe the terminology is what has changed but other than the snake, we did all those shots. I won't say we did them better or worse but I'd like to think we had better players due to the fact that foosball was hot in those days and we had ten times the number of players as today, maybe way more than that.You could find action in every little town not to mention tournaments. I used to travel all over the state of Wisconsin just to play someone who was rumored to be good and they'd come to play me. Just out of curiosity the tic-tac shot, are you referring to from the center to the near man and then out to the center long? Try doing that shot but go from center to the near man then tap to the far man and angle in, done fast like the tic-tac. I guess I need to get somewhere where the game is being played again and see if my hands can keep up to what I remember.
Gcp, I heard of those tables but never got the chance to play on one. I always wanted to go to Europe and play. I heard stories of old farts playing that were as cagey as they come and had developed their touch to an art form.
Chance 37, while you compare the changes to other sports I compare it to to music. Everything you do today came from before and some was better and some wasn't. There is another memory, playing some local 'pro' while listening to "Pinball Wizard". To bad for him if that was playing, you had to be there,,,
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I didn't take that Old Meister was saying that the 70's was better than now, he was just remembering the good old days and talking about some of the unique things about the tables he played on in the 70s...it is really hard to compare the different eras but one thing is certain, you could do some shots on TS (and some of the other tables mentioned) that you can not do on Tornado (not consistently anyway).
Examples: On TS you could do a pushkick (or pullkick) slice from the same spot to any one of (at least) 3 locations and do it as consistently - as consistently as a good rollover shooter can do a long pullside roller. Same with banks, they weren't mindless open-handed whacks at the ball hoping for the best...a person could hit banks with the same precision as pull shooter today can shoot the straight, or the 2 hole, or the spray or squared off long. Goalies could hit a bank from many more spots than I can name and they could hit them accurately inside, outside, and straight from that same position. They could even hit different holes off the bank...usually they would shoot a tight one hole but not always and whatever they shot was by their own choice.
This isn't to take anything away from the Tornado, it is a great table for a lot of reasons but it just isn't built to allow consistent angles...this is probably Tornado's biggest shortcoming (that and the white strip down the side has just a little too much angle which makes the ball jump up after it hits the tape).
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Matter of fact, after cruising the net yesterday I was sadly disappointed but did came up with a few possible options, for my purchase, but have no idea which direction to lean toward. All I can say is I'd like for the table to be as large as possible (playing field of course, and the players something other than plastic...wood players with a thin bottom surface area provided such incredible control/maneuverability). I spoke to a Greek friend of mine and he will call his cousin in Greece in order to investigate if we can locate an older table so I can import it. Money's not an issue so if one becomes available it's a done deal but in the mean time can you please provide info on the below:
Rene Pierre Zinc Foosball Table (what's the metal players like)?
Great American Action Foosball Table (hate its looks but it seems to have the largest playing field).
Also what's the deal with the telescopic rods now days? Are they as responsive as the old fashion spring rods? If one is stupid enough to be hit by one they deserve to be hit, if you ask me, but there's always the children issue....Also, 3 goalie tables, and bank shots? This game is supposed to imitate real football and I've yet to see 3 goalies under the goals or bank shots being possible. For example, in the "old days" we could only score with the center forward from the front line (middle forward player) because with the side men scoring was no challenge. Old Meister, yes, some of the guys playing when I was learning were beyond description, you'd have to see it to believe what they could do on a football table. Music was a great analogy BTW ;)
Please feel free to suggest other table alternatives (wood players would be preferable to me). All recommendations will be appreciated!
Thanks,
gcp
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Gcp, unfortunately table style has always been about cornering the market. While that made for real improvements early in the foosball history, nowadays it seems to revolve around a certain group of shots and a standardized passing sequence. In short the game is limited. While the quality of the tables is obvious it was the influx of a select few who caused the direction of today's game. I guess that anyone with the resources that could develop the game would probably change it to enhance it in ways to support their own perception of what the game should be. Myself, I would go for a table with handling somewhat like the TS blue top table with balanced men like tornado's but with feet shaped like TS. I'd go with a medium weighted rod with Tornado grips. I'd also go back to one goalie and ramps and a flat surface at the side rails(banks). To find one of those big tables would be a lot of fun, I've never seen one and would love to play on one. But the real point to you, gcp, is that you most likely are going to have to accept getting a conventional table unless you search overseas. Good luck on that.
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gcp,
go to the ITSF website (link below) and see the 5 recognized tables...they all play very different and you can find Bonzini here in the US...much much different style...I understand Tech Ball is the closest to the old TS (brown top)
all 4 tables have more ball control than Tornado...Bonzini has the most...they used to use cork balls, I don't know if that is true any more
but one thing the International competition has proven, people can get really really good on any model...all models have one or more shortcomings...tornado's is banks and angles and some would say ball control...Tornado is clearly the best made table (or used to be, I can't vouch for the most recent release) - best made means most durable, most sound, most level, truest round on balls, etc...build quality
one last note, none of them are cheap...
http://www.table-soccer.org/
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bbtuna,
Thank you very much for taking the time to provide me your inputs! I've derived at the some conclusion, in that I would probably be happiest with a European style football table. BTW, I found the link you provided yesterday and it was a pleasure to watch its video vignettes. I saw the Italian tables listed, to include Rene Pierre's Zinc table which seems to be the closest to what I am looking for. But it will be very hard for me to decide without playing all of these tables, quite a difficult task in Northern Alabama ;)
In saying that, I played a Tornado Whirlwind a couple of days ago and even though it's a departure from what I'm used to, I was pleasantly surprised with the somewhat decent playability, and the levelness of the table. I found it to be a somewhat slow table, with many dead spots, but then again I was trying different shots all on my own....The sound was there and the players, albeit plastic, could perform decently.
You are so correct, people can get good at any table, I guess I am allowing my nostalgia to get the best of me.
Thanks again,
gcp
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gcp,
You have to decide what you want out of your time spent on your home table...if you decide you want to play locally at DYP's or at Regional/National tournaments in the states 99% of those are all on Tornado and the rest are very regionally located on Bonzini. If you buy something other than Tornado, you will put in practice time for a table you will never play competitively on.
If on the other hand you don't care about that and you just want to improve your skills for your own satisfaction and you want to play for fun, then buy any table that suits you. Just an FYI on Rene, I have heard more bad things about that table than the others and I am pretty certain world wide they have the smallest player base.
The advantages to Tornado is that the table surface is always level (up to the latest release but I think they will get this straightened out). And they have the best ball...it starts and stays true round much better than any other ball. The down side is that the ball is on the heavy side and it doesn't provide as much control because it is a harder material.
Problem with ball choice is the softer it gets (softer means more control) the harder it is to get it round, to keep it round, to keep it from getting burs, and to make it last any length of time.
When the ITSF was formed, Tornado was (and still is) pretty much the standard by which the other tables were measured (in terms of build quality, level playing surface, ball, and reliability of rods and men). The other tables have been requested (mandated) to make changes to bring them closer to that standard. I think eventually the ITSF will mandate tables/balls meet detailed requirements to be considered an international competition table. This is already happening it just isn't as controlled as I think it will be.
With all that said, each of those other tables are famous from a Tornado player's point of view to be badly built. Meaning, one or more of each of the follwoing:
* Balls that don't roll straight all the time
* Table surface isn't level
* Rods are bad - various issues including flimsy/telescoping on one
* Crazy wide side strip (Garlando)
* Overall table is too lite
* One or no serving holes (really dumb to those of us who have grown up serving from a serving hole)
One thing they all seem to have in common is lots of ball control. Because of this, and the level table issues, the European game is centered much more around pinned balls (lots of movement, not just a rocking or even a "walking" snake). You can see this if you watch some video which includes international play.
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I think it is cool that each of the tables has a unique personality and I understand homers defending the benefits of each table
however, like pretty much every other sport, I think there should be standards and/or tolerances like playfield (size, approved materials, level), rod specs (length, diameter, weight, material), Men (foot size/shape, height from table, distance from each other) , side strip (size, etc) , bumpers, handles (size, material, changeable, etc) , ball (length, diameter, weight, material), table height/weight (and other dimensions), score/game/time out posts, and finally goal size (height, width, shape).
The trick is to do this and still allow each table to retain its own unique personality...I think it can be done if the key requirements provide the right tolerances and/or variables (like available material for man, table surface, and balls).
I am totally cool with the idea of the best player being determined by who can play best on a variety of tables…Fredrico has shown that he is the best (ever in my opinion) because he dominates on every table and has for 10 years or more.
I just think the players should NOT have to deal with things like the table surface not being level or the ball not being round or widely varying goal sizes or table weight. Lets build solid heavy tables (at least 400 pounds) for tournament competition that are level and have balls that stay round or are replaced often enough not to matter. I also think the size of the goal should be consistent…could you imagine football uprights each being a different width, or soccer goals, or hockey, or basket ball, or any well known sport where goals are scored?
No, there should be standards.
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bbtuna,
You my friend are a gentleman, and a real table soccer/foosball aficionado, judging from your well thought out emails. Thank you very much for your valuable inputs!!
After doing a bit of my own reading the past couple of days I decided on the Tornado tables, either the Storm II or the Cyclone II. I've got 'till tomorrow 11:00pm to pick one (the area dealer will be coming to my home town for a tournament and can deliver a table to me free of charge). I am leaning toward the Cyclone because 1) I like its looks better and 2) I was told that it is closer to the commercial Tornado models (TT2000). But he had nothing but good things to say about the Storm, and actually recommended it to me over the Cyclone for home use. My question is, which would you prefer, or should I go for the TT2000? Unfortunately the dealer does not have a TT in stock so would it be worth waiting for?
Thanks,
gcp
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spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a 2000.....the split cabinet alone makes it worth it for moving etc......
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don't worry about how much time it takes...don't let your impluse keep you from buying the right table...buy a used coin op...if you don't have enough money now, wait, if you do have enough money and we will talk about you finding a good deal...I would buy either the last grey marble model and there will be plenty of those still around from pomoters or the old brown marble...if you can, do the grey marble...I will tell you more later but for now I just wanted to stop you from buying the Cyclone or Storm
gotta run for now, I will check again later or you can email me anytime or call my cell phone after work hours
bbtuna
bbt
charles
backpinrules@yahoo.com
816-665-7798
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I'll 2nd getting a used (or new) coin-op . You will not regret it. A used coin-op will not lose much value either. Maybe try and get one if there is a big tourney near you (IFP). They sell them for a reduced price after the tourney is over.
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Well my friends, I wish I had gotten these messages before yesterday 1:00pm central. Because I now have, seating in my screen room, a new Cyclone II. Gotta say, immediately I didn't like the "quality" of this product. I am a picky person but even to the layman there are all sort of unnecessary imperfections on this table, a sign of manufacturing and assembly sloppiness. It plays ok but I had a chance to play a coin op and this table of mine is no coin op! I'll be calling the rep to see if we can arrange a trade, today if possible. There's a tournament going on locally so, maybe he can take this back and bring me a used coin op, he has a few. And I hate to do this because it took a little over an hour to put this thing together. Oh well, live and learn....
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Forumites, an update to my predicaments. I moved my Cyclone to the garage where I could work on it. I screwed into place a 2x6 cross member under the table, and placed two 45lb dumbbells on it. So, the table is now 90 lbs heavier and feels a bit sturdier. But there's still perceivable movement, unlike the coin ops I felt and played on yesterday. Don't know whether or not this is due to the way the table is made, the plastic corner pieces make me very suspicious as to the solidity of the design, so I'll be calling the manufacturer tomorrow in order to develop a more well informed opinion.
As I've said before, for $895 this is not a well made table. It has multiple imperfections on the legs, which have not been sanded properly, for example, with rough spots/unsanded areas all over them, the plastic adjusters are not perfectly flat, and I assume this most probably contributes to the table’s movement, the metallic inserts the plastic (of all solid materials available to the market they could have been made from, cheap plastic was chosen) adjusters screw into have four wholes in them but only two screws where screwed into each leg. Also one wood grip was cracked, plus the table's pockets were full of wood dust/leftovers. In addition to correcting most of the above imperfections I spent some time sanding the wood grips down so as to make them a bit more comfortable to the touch (sanded all the rough, sharp edges down) so now they do feel 100% more comfortable. This could have easily been done at the factory, which would have indicated an added touch of consideration for their potential customers but no, crank tables out as quickly and as unfinished as possible to minimize cost, maximize profit and the consumer be damned!! BTW, most of the table's wood grips are obviously out of round when I spin the rods....
If this is an example of Texas manufacturing/craftsmanship now days, I believe from here on I best take my chances with the Chinese :'( Shame on you Tornado workers for putting out such a shoddy product! And shame on you quality control personnel, if there is such a thing at this factory, for allowing this table to be shipped. Thank goodness I'm a pretty competent wood worker so I was able to finally render this table acceptable and rather playable. BTW this was the second table I had to go pick up, the first one was obviously dropped in transit with two of its plastic corner pieces broken.
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I had problems with my cyclone II as well......is your cyclone II the new model or the old blonde side? I had a problem with one of the screws in the drop pan and could not fix it without taking the cabinet apart and I wasn't even going to try.......I called my local dealer and he put me in touch with Valley/ dynamo/ brunswick and they sent me a 2000 and I paid the difference......It was definately a drawn out process becasue my dealer didn't mind dragging his feet....but in the end I was taken care of.......I LOVE my 2000 and I am very happy with the upgrade.....good luck
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ps I sell pool tables for a living and can attest to shotty craftmanship...........Brunswick in my industry is not known as one of those companies thay pay attention to those little things that make tables top notch........in other words they really do cut corners.....
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I still have my Tornado table I won in the 70's. It's a home model of course with banked corners and men held on with screws and nuts! The "older" tables are where the sport started. I regret having sold the other tables I had won (TS, Dynamo, Challenger and a "big red" American). Having played on tables off and on all of these years, whether I like it or not, I find the game is still played with the same intensity now as then. I find the "snake shot" to be a very skillfully designed shot, I don't like it only from the standpoint that some people end up going 360 degrees with the rod. It is a very good shot when done well.
As for the level of play, I find that the old days were like today, the good players deep down want to find people to play that can challenge and even beat them. Without losing you will not improve, you will stagnate. All of the shots that can be done today had a start in the "old days", some are just faster because of the evolution of the tables and the availability of devices to help the player (oh what I could have done with wraps on the handle).
35 years later I still like to play every now and then (can even hold my own most of the time). All that really changed for the worst is the price to play, with two quarters you could play all night!
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Two quarters Bert? ;) The big thing was to go where a good band was playing so there was alot of people and then hold the table all night if you could. There might be 10 quarters(ten games) on the table from challengers and more than a few arguments about who's quarter was next. That's why you wanted to keep on winning. It took a long time to get back on the table if you lost. Those were good times and good players.
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One whole quarter? I sometimes played on a Dueschmeister? table in a college dorm in Milwaukee that took only two dimes! I think it spit out 11 balls instead of 9.
I like fancy shots in the 70's. However, simplicity will win out. I watched some youtube of Rico shooting a (closed hand?) snake shot on a Garlando table. Beautifully executed and simple shot that I wish I had learned in the 70's. I think the balls were too slippery back then to have good control for a front pin. I never heard of handle wraps either in those early years, although we occasionally used a golfer's glove. Has anyone used a high speed video to record how Rico physically shoots the snake? It looks so awesome and easier on the arm.
Old Meister ... I sent you a private message a couple of days ago.
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Two quarters, one to get a table and one to get another table after leaving one place to go somewhere else because nobody would play us anymore at the first place! Some places we would go to we would put our money down and our turn would come up and everyone would leave. The nice thing was where we played foos a lot of times it was at foosball places where there were 16 tables, two coin-op pool tables and no video games or pinball machines! No smoking was also great! And running a place called "Tornado Shelter" with a bar next door was a plus too!
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Ricos shot isnt a snake shot its called a Euro pin......difference being close handed as you sadi not on the wrist......
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Rico's shot is a Euro Pin but it is not closed handed...the Euro Pin is done with a palm roll - his is just so smooth and tight it is hard to see ... I have tried and seen people do the front toe with a closed hand but it looks much different and is very hard to get any speed on it
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The front pin (heel) roll shot, specifically the pull, was invented by Adrian Hoines in the 1960's. Jim (Red) Zellick toured Europe with it in the 1970"s as a member of Tounament Soccer's Promo Team. The lasting effect of Big Red's front pin is echoed today as the "Europin".
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close handed what was i thinking...he keeps that thumb up......I htink its more of a popular shot on the european style tables??????Not too sure though
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I think we have a semantics problem. The "Costa Rican" roll shot is an open handed shot with the thumb up. The wrist shot (gripped like a motorcycle throttle) wraps the thumb around the handle to touch the index finger.