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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: clhereistian on February 24, 2008, 01:17:23 PM
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I am a foosball beginner. We just got a Cyclone table in the break room at work; before this we had a really crappy table. Most of our play to this point has been hitting the ball really hard without much control. Most of the goals are scored from the defense or 5-man. No one has taken the time to develop good shots from the offensive men. So I'm trying to learn the pull shot. I've got to the point where I can hit it short, middle and long about 75% of the time. The problem is that it gets blocked too much because the toss isn't fast enough. Does anyone have tips on increasing the lateral speed of my pull shot?
Also, what are the most important things to learn when playing against players like I mentioned? I always play offense.
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The most important thing is to relax when you do your pull. This wil increase your lateral speed. It is like a baseball player who swings at a pitch. You don't home run swing, you swing easily. Don't tense up and try not to have some kinda tell. When you try to go so fast you'll in all likelyhood try too hard and whiff at the ball or go around it never getting a good clean hit on the ball.
As for playing against players, don't worry about speed right now...just execute...keep doing your shot...with time speed will come and reading the d will also come to you as well...Good luck...and...keep foosinaround!!!! Peace!!!!
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I will try to help you but be warned, I might go on forever. ;D
First, let me say that speed is not an end all be all. Those here who know can attest, one of the best pulls in the game had mediocre speed at best. His ability to read a defense and and wait one out was unmatched. He would hit holes that simply were not there. He is at least a 13 time world champ. Steve Murray. Never had a fast stroke but he did have the gift of finding the hole.
Okay, now, hitting the ball hard is not necessary to score. Let me state, ANY ENERGY WHICH IS NOT DIRECTED AT LATERAL MOVEMENT OF THE ROD WILL SLOW THE MOVEMENT OF SAID ROD. Let me explain. If you try to hit the ball excessively hard, your body moves for balance compensation, your elbow moves either too far out or in to generate the power for the ball to go forward, the man comes too far off the ball to hit it which gives your opponent a clue where you will hit it, also the death grip on the handle is also detrimental to the stroke. What you want is for all energy exerted to be parallel or tangent to the rod you are shooting on. Even though I have not seen you shoot, I will almost guarantee you have a lot of unnecessary body movement when you shoot the ball.
The fix. DISTANCE. With your arms extended, approach the table until your palms touch the table. This will be your approximate distance of your right foot from the table. Another way to do this is to pull the three rod completely out and with your right hip, make a parallel line to the table. Don't worry, it's gonna feel weird at first, believe me, you are not to far from the table. The reason for this is balance. Whether you shoot a straight or a long, you must have balance throughout the entire stroke. Have good balance and you eliminate body movement, Less body movement equals more speed in the stroke.
Next, the GRIP. With the man either perpendicular to the table or just slightly angled back, grip the handle as if you are about to shake it's hand. Now try to put your thumb on top of the handle. If you can without any strain, you have the right grip, if not, rotate hand accordingly. Also, use a very loose grip at the beginning of the stroke vs. a tight one. What this does is eliminate backswing. Eliminate backswing, add speed to the stroke.
Now, STANCE. If you have done so far what I've said, you should be standing with shoulders square to the table. With your back foot still in place, turn your body 45 degrees and square your shoulders to the corner of the table being careful to leave your feet at least a shoulder width apart to keep your balance. What this does is put your body in perfect balance for the finish portion of the stroke before it starts vs. trying to move your body there in the middle of the stroke. Your stance however, will be something you have to experiment with because of different bodytypes but the two constants are distance and balance. This conserves a lot of energy which again adds to the speed of the stroke.
STROKE. There are basically two different strokes with another being a combo of the two. The most accurate is the square or the "7" stroke or what I sometimes call the "punch" stroke and is also referred to as the "dead stroke". This stroke is called this because the finish portion of the stroke is back towards the other side of the table which generates the forward and sometimes angled back path of the ball. The other is called a spray stroke which is primarily a speed stroke. The finish of this stroke is towards the wall in which you are shooting. Since the ball never squares or angles back, the release of the ball is that much quicker. The last is a combination of the two and is what a lot of the pros use. The combo of the 7 stroke with a little spray allows you to get to specific holes with speed.
Hopefully I have not bored you to death. Before you start worrying about speed, concentrate on TECHNIQUE. That will get you farther than just pure speed.
As far as what you should learn, BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL BALL CONTROL.
ICEMAN.
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I shoot a pull shot. I spray the ball, and I want to be able to square off my shots better.
What can I do to square my shot? I've tried doing more of a 7 stroke, but I can't seem to do it on the table.
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Having not seen you shoot, might be a problem but I will try.
For every problem, there are symptoms that bring out fundamental flaws in your technique.
Your problem, not being able to hit a square stroke. The symptom, you always spray the ball.
Let me start first by saying the Tornado table works on leverage. In other words, the best players have figured out how to make the "table" work vs. using their bodies to do the work.
One of the most common symptoms of your problem is standing too close to the table. Let me explain what happens when you are too close to the table. As you begin your stroke, say to shoot a straight or a middle, you have leverage. In other words, your body still has good balance. But when the handle passes your right hip you begin to lose your leverage of which is needed to force the ball in the other direction in the release. When you lose your leverage, your right shoulder and hip rotate away from the table in the direction of the movement to compensate for your body's imbalance which in turn will not allow you to square the ball. So what happens is you hit the far side of the ball which causes it to spray.
To help your problem, do what I stated above as a starting point for distance and stance. Now stick with me because I'm headed to left field. The pull shot in its most simple form is not really a shot...it is a pass. A brush pass to be exact, it's just a very violent one done with the right hand. This first drill will prove it is a pass into the goal but it will also teach you the finish motion of the 7 stroke.
After getting your distance and stance, pull the 3 all the way to the wall. Now place the ball on the middle guy in a pin position. Now move the ball just slightly forward where the ball will not pin but in a position to still feel the ball as if to brush pass. This is what I call the "pinch" position. Now put the man as close as you can to the ball. As smooth and as quick as you can without any backswing, force the ball into the goal with a motion back toward the wall opposite you as if you were doing a brush up being mindful of the pinch feel you will experience on the release. This simple drill will teach you the release motion of the 7 stroke.
Next drill. Set the ball in same position you had before with the previous drill. Now put the 3 rod as if you were about to shoot a pull but leave the ball in the long position. Now take off as if you have the ball on the middle guy and approach the ball. Now execute the first drill. After you master this drill, then add the ball at the beginning. This drill mimics the entire mechanics of the 7 stroke. Perform this drill religiously and shot will for sure get better.
Another common symptom of spraying the ball can also having the ball too far forward which also prevents that "pinch" which is needed to force the ball back in the 7 stroke. The simple fix would be to just move the ball back a bit.
As you can see, I can go on all day. This is why I really need to see you shoot to diagnose your problem. Hopefully I have helped you. If not, just let me know.
ICEMAN.
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Iceman,
Thanks for all the great tips. I don't know if you've helped me, but you sure gave me a bunch to go and practice. I'm stoked. I'll let you know how it works out for me. Thanks.
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I just tried out the drills. They were perfectly described and easy to repeat. I'll practice them for a while and see how they help on my pulls.
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Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?
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Iceman, can I ask you one more question? Where should my elbow be located during the toss? Does the position of my elbow change as I shoot the ball?
I assume from what you say that other than my arm and hand, my body should remain still for the entirety of the pull shot. Is that right?
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Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?
Once you have your distsnace from the table, keep your left foot still and move your right foot so that your shoulders(which you should keep square with your hips) are at a 45 degree angle to the side of the table, you should be facing the near corner of the table on front of you.
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Good posts iceman...I like the detail, i only wish we could do stuff like this with pictures
you are asking about your elbow during the shot I assume right?
what ice is explaining I think is an approach I think more and more people will move to as time goes on....I have read, from super great very proven players, that with the pull shot you use your hips for power etc
however, i have watched a ton of video and I don't think any person around has a better stroke (for rollover, pull, push, everything) than Billy Pappas...no one moves less (normally) on his rollover than Billy..it is all arm, no shoulder, hips, etc...very fluid..same thing when I see him shoot a pull
i believe, and understand this is not "proven" but I believe after observing and trying it myself, that you can get all the speed and power you need with only your arm moving and your should just being a pivot
i will go a step further, I think, the fastest most powerful shot you can do is one with the least amount of muscle involved and one which use the are only
Billy has been doing this so long I doubt he thinks about it but for me and others with habits already in place, it is tough (but not impossible) to make the transition
you have a chance to start from scratch...
don't worry about speed, worry about a good smooth stroke that has no visible sign of when it starts and that looks the same regardless if you shoot straight, middles, or longs..learn to read defenses and be willing to shoot any hole to score...now, if it turns out you have a frightening burning fast long stroke then so much the better but don't let the need for speed cloud good judgment
i don't care where I score a ball, as long as it goes in, I get as much pleasure from a bomb as I do a dink so learn to love scoring anywhere, it will help your shot mature
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Thanks bbtuna. I have one scenario I was wondering about on the pull. Some defenders I play against, I can score with the pull ok. There is one guy that always stops me. What he does is line one of his men on the two-man stick right in front of the ball when I set for the pull. He lines up one of the men from the goalie stick just to the inside of that. When I start the pull, he moves both men toward me at the same speed. I can get by the two-man ok, but I hit the goalie most of the time because I'm not fast enough to get by both guys. I'm not sure how to find a hole because as I pull, both guys follow me and a hole doesn't open.
How would you suggest combating that defense?
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I dont want but in but it sounds like hes raceing you these people leave straights open learn a good fake I like to raise my man and cause the ball to turn it will make him jump then slam a straight, you also need to change speeds to shoot behind him or split you can even try aimeing at the goalie ,theres always a way good luck.
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Easiest way to beat the race defense is to either learn to hit a spray to the corner or to fake him off the straight. The ol' John Wayne also works when someone is waiting on you and reacting. ;)
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Your body diamensions will affect where you need to stand. I could never stand like Steve Murray or Carl Peterson, because I'm 6" taller than both of them. I found the best stance is the one that allows me free balanced movement the entire lenght of the shot. Practice your toss just like you are going to shoot but focus on the ball and it's path. Watch how the ball rolls as you draw it towards you. Then swing through the ball in a smooth single motion.
Good Luck
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Okay, that sucked. Had a lot of good stuff written but got disconnected so I lost it. I'll repost later.
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And Ice... don't forget about our boxer analogy. Relaxed until the point of "contact".
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okay, i will see if I can get my overlong post in before ICE gets his overlong post in
the defense you describe is a called, as mentioned already, a "race" and it is in "standard" since the goalie is leading out
in a perfect world, the perfect race can block the entire goal but we don't live in a perfect world
first off, I mentioned this in the previous post and ICE has as well but not directly related to a specific defense...however, nothing illustrates more the importance of no body movement, or other give aways, prior to the beginning of your shot so that, the first thing that moves is your hand
light grip, comfortable stance, shoulder acting as pivot..smooth, invisible start...if you can start with no motion, tics, grunts, or anything else that may signal you are about to start, then the defense, regardless of how fast they are, can not begin reacting until after you are already into your stroke...the entire stoke takes less than a second so even if they are "faster" than you, you have made up a lot of ground. Imagine 2 world class sprinters and they are going to race...they are only going to go 7 yards, one guy gets to start one yard ahead of the other (so he only has to go 6 yards) but he can't move until the guy going 7 yards starts...
Second, learn to wait a while on the rod, all coiled up like you are about to explode at any minute...this serves to try and get the other person to be a little jumpy
Third, throw in a fake or two every second or third possesion (don't do this every time or it won't mean as much and it is hard to recover from a fake and shoot smoothly like we have been talking about)
Forth, improve your ball control so you can roll the ball over into pull position each time as deep as possible, with your 3 bar all the way on the wall (make him have to race futher) (also, not now, but you will want to be able to learn a "rolling pull" where you shoot your pull while you are rolling it to set it up...to do this well takes some explanation and work)
Fifth, as already metioned, learn the "spray long" where you pull to the big dot and spray the ball to the long hole
Sixth, learn to hit a really tight good straight...this is as important as your long...even if he blocks it, it will force him to hestitate at the beginning because he will be afraid the straight will get in behind him...there are a number of straight moves but there is a simple very effective straight
* Stand dead still
* Imagine in your head long long long like you are going to try and explode to the long hole (but stay loose as always)
* Then, leaving your man on the wall to start, suddenly, lift your man with a high backswing and without any hesitation, as quick as it went up, bring the man down over the ball for the straight shot
again, you have to be willing to shoot this even if he blocks it...don't worry at all if he is in the way or not...you are not looking for him to be in a particular spot in this case because he is "racing"...just make the start as smooth and as invisible as you can...trust the up and down motion to get the person started...remember, do not hesitated at any point during this up and down motion...as fast up as it is down...this motion, when done right, will make the best goalies jump at least some of the time
there is great value to shooting the straight with a pull shot...it always make the defense have to think about the short side and will make them second guess going out to long (or where ever depending on the defense)...again, even if it is blocked...the important thing is to execute it well
Last for now, vary your timing...new players traditionally won't sit on a ball for more than a few seconds and you need to learn to use the clock to your advantage...you have 15 seconds on that rod (this includes set up time which is another reason you want to improve your ball control so you don't eat up 7 to 10 seconds on set up)...but assuming you can get it set up pretty quickly (lets say 5 seconds) you then have 10 seconds to shoot...be willing to go to 10 or be willing to go on 1/2 second and everything in between...try and vary even your own clock...so if you are counting to yourself 1 thousand 1 etc, you don't always want to go on the beginning of your count, learn to start at odd times so as to make your rythm and timing unpredictable...
NOTE: I say "odd times" but this is strickly a personal thing because it is your own clock that is ticking inside of you that no one else can hear. However, the vast majority of people have a rythm to their life, their clock works a certain way, their seconds are always a certain time, they are comfortable with going on certain times, etc...so, what you want to do is learn to start your shots at all different times so that you become unpredictable...the more unpredicatable you are the jumpier the goalie will get, especially a racing goalie
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another note...you say the goalie moves both men together and you can beat the first man but not the goalie....can you tell, does the goalie jump out faster than the 2 rod so that he sort of lags the 2 rods while blasting the goalie rod out to the long hole or does he move them both exactly together in tight formation all the way accross the front of the goal?
very few goalies will keep them in tight formation and it makes a difference because if he has a tendency to jump the gaolie ahead, there can be a 2 hole split open...this will be even more true if you can execute a good straigt because the goalie will hesitate a little to leave home while the goalie, which feels totally unthreatened, will fling itself out to the long hole
the split needs to be shot just like a squared off long only you are going to sqaure (or even cut back a little) the ball after only moving it about a 1 1/2 -1 3/4 of a ball lenght
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Yes, the straight will open the goal....Either a moving straight or a lift straight...even if they block it ..Shoot it anyway...It will keep them honest so to speak..if you're not a threat for it ..they will leave it...so make an attempt to shoot the straight and he'll stop racing you as good as he does...Good luck...try it!!!!
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Thanks for all your help. I have plenty of things to try now.
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last big draw I played there were some very very good pull shots.....My first match i blocked the **** out of a master.....Pat myself on the back..they won, but he had to switch from his pull to pull and push kicks which caught me a few times....Then our second match I did the saem with another good pull shot...we won....third match I had been blocking middle and longs all night....the guys we played knew I could stuff his rollover..and he went to pulling I said no prob....he dinked my ass 3 times.....what a swift kick inthe nuts...but i learned a lesson from it....the straight will open the doors for the long ALL DAY and NIGHT
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i remember my first tournament after coming back and I was playing goalie with , no change that, for Scott Liley and we were up to play Ron Nevois who has a superb pull...as we started, Scott, who plays with him all the time, said, "Whatever you do, don't give him straight on the first shot, he always shoots straight on the first shot" ... I was determined to stay home and block the straight and bbbam he hits a straight...then he torched me like 9 blistering long pulls in a row - now, I was totally lost and had no feel at all for what I was doing at the time but he definately put me in my place
since then, i have become a student of the striaght both from a goalie perspective as well as from a shooters perspective
IMO the 3 most under under-utilized shots for pull shooters, Straight, 2 hole, and 4 hole
if you can make the goalie have to cover a tight straight hole, this means they have to cover holes 2-4 with one guy...think about it!
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I can hit the straight shot most of the time. But sometimes it bounces off the wall to the left of the goal. What do you guys think my problem is? Am I supposed to come straight down on the ball? That's what I've been trying to do.
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you can hit the wall by not hitting the ball flush...either a little short of flush, which oddly enough makes the ball hit the wall or if you go too far and angle back
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Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?
Wow, sorry guys. First I lose a post with a lot of good stuff and then I work the next three days 12 hours at a time. I'll try to remember what I posted.
Okay, for the most part, you are correct. Use your left foot as your comfort or balance foot. Your back foot should move only parallel to the table once you have found your distance. Remember, don't be afraid to experiment with the stance until you find what works best for you. When you find that sweet spot, it will be a light bulb moment which means you will have found the leverage point of your body in relation to the table. The best way to find out if you have a good stance or not is to get in your stance as if you are about to shoot. Then pull the rod to the wall as if you just shot a long staying down in your stance. Now, let go of the handles and stand up. If you have good balance, you have a good stance. If you had to catch yourself from falling, your stance is bad.
Now, your elbow. Remember what I said about parallel energy to the rod. Your hand, elbow, and shoulder should all form a straight line with the rod. In other words, your arm will become an extension of the rod in the table. Your arm becomes the "connecting rod" if you will to the table or engine to generate power and torque. My best analogy would be the connecting rod on the wheels of an old steam locomotive. Your pull stroke should look like the return stroke of the rod that makes all the wheels turn at once, straight back. Have a friend stand behind you in your stance. Now pull the rod all the way to the bumper. Have your friend place the palm of his hand on your elbow maybe moving in just slightly. Now shoot some long pulls. If you stroke correctly, your elbow will contact your friends palm every time. If it does not, that means you are directing energy away from the parallel motion of the rod which affect the speed and power you are trying to achieve. Your elbow acts as the part of a piston that is connected to the crankshaft. So yes for the most part the body stays quiet or still through most of the shot other than a little hip twist in the 7 stroke in the release. As someone else has stated, a lot of what I am saying will help you with a smooth stroke but more importantly a good takeoff because of no wasted energy and body movement tells when you are about to shoot.
One more thing, Brad brought up the boxing analogy. This is something we tell the people overseas a lot when explaining the mechanics of a pull. Speed is achieved by the relaxing of muscle, not the contracting of it. The hardest hitters in boxing, karate, etc. are the ones who stay relaxed in their movements until the point of contact. Same with the pull stroke. Stay loose during the stoke, tense just "after" the release.
Hope that helps, anymore questions just ask.
ICEMAN
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I can hit the straight shot most of the time. But sometimes it bounces off the wall to the left of the goal. What do you guys think my problem is? Am I supposed to come straight down on the ball? That's what I've been trying to do.
Okay, time for a Physics lesson.
When two objects interact with each other, a lot of things happen, including some that are not visible to the human eye.
One of those things is FRICTION.
Just like foosball, weird things happen on a pool table when two balls hit each other because of friction. For example, cue ball in center of table, object ball near a pocket but not straight in so you have to cut it in. Did you realize that when the cue ball strikes the object ball on a cut shot the object ball actually first moves in the direction, on a tangent, in the same direction the cue ball is headed then it moves in the direction of the cut. This is because of friction. In other words, when the two balls meet, the friction of the first ball rubs the second in the direction of the initial force be it only for a just a spiit second. After the friction wears off, then the ball heads in its desired cut angle path. Sounds crazy but this happens on every ball that is cut into a pocket.
THE CONNECTION.
Now, you have the ball set up to shoot a pull, the straight opens, you decide to shoot it. You pick up the guy, come around the back of the ball, then go back to the ball to power in the straight, but the ball, ever so slightly hits the far wall. Why? Friction.
Even though you are swinging straight down on the ball, the motion of you going back to the ball exerts friction which pushes the ball towards the wall first then toward the goal. The result, posting out the straight.
THE FIX.
The fix is gonna require that you trust me on this one. In pool, the way you overcome frictional forces is directional spin. When you spin the cue ball one direction to hit the object ball, the object ball spins immediately in the opposite direction which overcomes the frictional force. The drill I will explain will teach you to hit the tightest straigt possible.
Push the two rod to the near wall and set up to shoot a pull. The straight that exist in this position is what I call the dead man straight.
Now the trick is to use a spray finish stroke as soon as you hit the ball. So the rod should finish toward the wall nearest you. What this does is put directional spin on the ball to make it go straight instead of angling back to overcome the frictional force of the man going back to the ball. Practice shooting this straight with the two rod against the far wall with that stroke and you will soon be hitting some down right plain ole nasty straights.
Next......
ICEMAN
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Ice,
Couldn't of said it better myself. :)..Hey, I was gonna say that....LOL... :D
I love going back to that hole!!! Well, I guess you could say to that hole...I like to move ever so slightly and go back to the straight hole...It works great!!!! :)
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Iceman, that works great on the straight. I never would have tried it like that. Thanks!
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I've got one more technique for you guys to try, let you know tomorrow if I have time.
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Okay, my last installment of pull fundamentals. I just hope you guys are prepared to be screwed....hehe.
This technique is the last piece of the puzzle which allows you to make the table work for you while doing a smooth and powerful stroke. It will also make the shot faster, not because of lateral speed, but because of compaction of the release. Less release time equals faster shot. It will also disguise your release point, in other words, the straight looks like the long, the long looks like the three quater, the second dot looks like the big dot and so on. It is also what has kept me from hurting my wrist even on a hard stub when shooting a pull.
THE SCREWDRIVER.
One of the most common mistakes I see people making in the release motion is motorcycling the release. This usually happens when you try to overhit or cram the ball into the goal. What happens is the man comes up to far off the ball, the elbow moves too far left or right, all of which slow the speed of the rod because of energy exerted is not parallel to the rod. One of the worst things that happens is wrist mis-alignment. This is usually why injuries occur. Put your wrist or elbow for that matter, in a bind and then put pressure on it and you're asking for trouble.
The screwdriver technique fixes all of the above problems. It is the final piece of the puzzle that will help you keep your wrist, elbow, and shoulder all in alignment in perfoming an effortless stroke. It also allows for a short, quick, compact, and accurate release free from injury.
Okay, now imagine when you hold the handle in your hand, you are holding a screwdriver. In the 7 stroke, when you begin the motion of squaring the ball, don't motorcycle the handle, screwdriver the handle back into the table as if you were turning a screw. This allows you to continue to direct parallel energy at the rod which allows you to tap into the energy stored in the table. Remember, become one with the table.
If ever you get to see one of the great pull shooters in person or that person who you know has a sweet stroke. Stand directly across from them or directly behind them and watch their hand on the handle in the squaring portion of the stroke. Looks like they are using a screwdriver right? That's how you make the table work for you.
That's about it what I know about a pull shot. Hopefully what I have given you will help you develop a good shot and keep you free of injury.
Any more questions just ask and I'll try to answer.
ICEMAN
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So clhereistian and rradjabi, how are those pull shots coming?
ICEMAN.
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It's coming along. I'm getting the hang of splitting the guys, which is a big help. The long pull shot is almost always open. Sometimes everyone including the goalie knows I am going long, and I can still beat them to the hole. The problem is that when I do a really fast long pull, I spray a couple of inches to the right. I haven't quite got the hang of a good square off on the long pull. I do fine on the short, middle and 3/4 pulls, but something about the long screws me up.
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you don't trust your body to do it...my guess is you have doubt in your mind and don't think you can pull that off with a long stroke....if you are squaring off shorter shots but spray the long there could be a number of mechanical problems but I am guessing a good deal of it is mental...you have to believe you can still be as accurate with a long stroke as with a short one...work on that
then, mechanically, there could be a number of reasons why you spray but bottom line is that you aren't getting your man around the ball...i was taught and so think of the pull shot as a pull, lift (man starting back stroke), and follow through (down part of stroke) sort of thing...but, with the long pull, you need to start the "lift" of the man at the same time as you start the pull...if I am spraying, it is because I am starting the lift too late and I dont have enough time to get around the ball before I run out of room
but, without seeing your shot, it is hard to make a real assesment...find someone you know who you trust to really understand the pull stroke and ask them to watch you closley for a while and make an evaluation or video tape yourself and post it where ICE and others can watch you and see what is going on...it is like trying to improve someones golf stroke without seeing it..there are some basics you can talk about but you can't really tweak their stroke without a visual reference
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i think something that most people too often do is rush the long....When i slow down the pull a lil bit and make sure im deadman the shot works.....if you try to pull too damn fast it makes it tough.....once the slower dead pull starts working then focuse on lightning fast....but you dont have to be lightning fast as many people on here will tell you there are several greats that werent blazing....
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I just had to post after a newfound revelation. I say revelation because its like a lightbulb that goes off and it all makes sense. By the way there's alot of great advice in this thread and I just wanted to thank everyone for making it a very interesting read.=)
I've started learning the snake shot about 3 weeks ago and I have got to the point where I feel fairly comfortable with the shot during a competitive game. Anyway my competitive partner set up his defense in such a way that that it forced me to shoot either a split shot or 5hole.
So I'm like ok.... I just got to learn to do splits better and I'll ace him everytime. So i'm practicing splits (which to me is the hardest shot to hit with a snake) and I'm like... hmm I should try to do a recoil. The recoil never made sense to me (probably because i'm new to the shot, and its sooo counter intuitive). After all I could make longs without it fairly consistantly so I ignored it. But this time i decided to try it again, and on top of that I decided to do a split using only a recoil. I first taught myself to do splits by visualizing the "outer 25% of the foot hitting the ball" and this worked, but then I tossed that out and tried the recoil....
*light bulb*
ITS THE RECOIL THAT MAKES YOUR SHOT LIGHTNING FAST (I thought recoils were only good for squaring off >.<)
I finally got the recoil to work! Not only that I realized it makes your shots seem like they are going twice as fast. I noticed even when i missed the splits my shots were much faster and even missed shots would hit the "5 hole". The key with learning the recoil involves 2 things:
1. Understanding and feeling very comfortable with all the shots of the snake
2. Visualizing the whip motion of the recoil and practicing it until it makes it feels right.
Anyway I just thought I would share this as it definitely makes my shots significantly faster where practicing rolling the ball fast did nothing for me really.
My theory: I think speed is mostly mental and not physical. After all, you have to pull off a series of very "touchy" motions in a fluid shot and kinda coach your self through a lot of different steps. Well when you throw the recoil in, you just added another complicated motion but you still gotta do it in the same amount of time, therefore you gotta think faster to complete it. To do a recoil such that it splits the goalie and 2 man you just gotta do it fast and your mind speeds up the shot for you.
Once I got the recoil, the shot just seemed to make much more sense.
Anyway I realize your interested in the pull shot and not the snake but I know that you can recoil or "square off" using either shot and the same theory should apply to both.
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Robert Uyeyama on pullshot recoil:
Recoil, the most important thing: What is "recoil", and why is it so important? The idea is to train your arm motion to be the smoothest and fastest "whip"-motion, like the end of the "J". The reason is to improve your accuracy by squaring your shot off when you shoot a very long pull as fast as you can. This is what happens to the foosball table: as you shoot the ball after pulling it, the rod is PUSHED so that your center man ends up near the center dot at the end of your motion.
How to develop recoil: Your entire arm should feel like a whip and the "crack" of the whip (at your elbow and wrist) coincides with the shooting of the ball. This means you begin the reversal of the whip-motion before you shoot, i.e. as you are pulling. You can think of this motion as a shoulder & elbow PUSH which you begin as soon as your wrist begins the PULL motion. This push motion will travel down your arm like a whip and reach your wrist, which will then also begin moving in the push direction. This is when you should shoot the ball; this is also the "cracking of the whip." Learn to time the entire shot motion so that the ball and man are in the correct position to shoot your long shot just as your wrist snaps the recoil. Thinking of violently "throwing" your elbow in the push direction as you simultaneously pull with your wrist may help-- other players think of lifting the elbow outwards so that it has leverage to snap the arm forward, somewhat like a karate punch.
The other important part of recoil is body positioning. You must be standing so that your arm is free to snap back and forth smoothly. Hold the 3-rod handle and try the recoiling whip-motion back and forth repeatedly, without a ball and not even pretending to shoot. The motion should not be awkward and should be very fluid even if you continue to whip back and forth. Find a good stance so that your arm is free to do this. You can experiment with standing lower, or more to your left, and make sure your right shoulder is not too close to the table.
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good post. a slow toss is EASILY raced.
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Nice interesting pull shot theories.
Down here in Florida, pullshooters try to emulate Horton and Yore, among many other pullshooters that have been shooting their screaming shots without stressing their bodies after 23+ years on the PROMASTER and OPEN events and many many titles.
Clue#1: A screaming pullkick seems to travel more than twice the distance in the same time without needing any additional "Recoil". And having even more lateral speed! Of course any two-player shot is harder to master and time.
Clue#2: The best pullshots seem to have a visible, "slow" beginning, but seem to disappear after the first half inch of travel or so.
Pros and ProMasters who have survived over two decades of intense open competition shooting use hardly any "Recoil". They predominantly use extremely smooth, accelerating "Pitch" or "Toss" takeoffs on the pull. The effectiveness of this combination of longitudinal and lateral spin can be easily proven. Prove it to yourself by having a friend at a bowling alley throw a ball while you stop it within the first 6 feet past the foul line, and then again by putting a hand on it anywhere 3/4's or further, down the lane.
Longitudinal roll, or siderolling speed, uses acceleration to get to much higher lateral speed than any caveman "yank" without any "tell" or indication at the "Pitch" or takeoff. This leads to the optical illusion of a pulled ball being visible the first half inch or so, then disappearing, leaving no obvious "jerk" or other "tell" for a goalkeeper, especially a racer, to use as a signal to jump to the 3/4 or long. If a pullshooter has ever had the problem of the pulled ball outrunning his/her 3bar player at the release or firing point, leading to a chip or edge shot to the corner, or a stub, then you know how powerful the lateral acceleration speed can be. But duffers usually try to "punch" or recoil the shot into a square, instead of using physics and just timing their player to touch and follow the ball correctly.
Lateral spin, parallel to the surface, accelerates its spin even faster, and with timing practice, is used to counter the pulled ball's momemtum trying to force itself away from the goal at release. This is comparable to a basketball layup shot straight up to either side of the basket, using lateral spin to "kick" the ball into the basket. Of course, to get the full effect of the "kick" the shot must be stroked to stay on the ball and actually follow it at release. This is the real reason for the return motion seen on a correct pullshot, and NOT a brute return motion "punch" which sends most of those who practice this into retirement, or to switch to a rollover.
Starting with ball closer to directly under the rod gives more lateral spin, allowing much harder striking of the ball for 3/4 and long and beyond deadbar releases. Starting with the ball further back has the lower tip of the 3bar player's foot closer to the middle of the side of the ball, and results in a mix with more longitudinal spin and acceleration for lateral speed. This use of angular acceleration to impart both higher lateral speed and the squaring "kick" takes advantage of physics without stressing any portion of the hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder or any part of the physique with any caveman "Recoil". Most pullshooters find a good medium between longitudinal and lateral spin at takeoff. With more practice, one can even easily shoot pulls beyond the deadbar, and repeat it for hours without your arm falling off. We play that "dollah-dollah" game with the NEAR 2bar set at half a man past deadbar. It separates the correct pullshooters from the cavemen who will eventually switch to a snake after they see their orthopedic surgeon.
In addition, of course the shooter should find a relaxed position which allows minimal energy and comfortable shifting of body weight and arm during the shot. But the cranking caveman pullshooters have been so easily outlasted by snakeshooters who stand whichever way they want, comfortably and all week during an Open tournament! I dare any, especially Robert Uyeyama to use his recoil shot and compare it to Todd Loffredo's monster superlong pull while standing on one foot with the other leg crossed. There will always be racers who can beat any yanking pull shot with hardly any spin and only able to shoot a square at best. And wasting all that energy pounding to square that ball, for nothing.
I've seen Todd, played back for Tom Yore, against R. Wight, Mike Cody, Beine, and seen Murray, and Tracy Mc, and there is none of that "Recoil" or "Whip" crap. Most are comfortable wrist initiated pulls with a hammer grip that hardly move the elbow more than 2 inches or so! Watch Ezekiel "Zeke"'s demo on YouTube on pullshots, and check for any monster "Recoil" or "Whip" motion. The old 1980's pullshot technique has done more harm and caused more retirements than anything else. I thank the emergence of the snake for the alternative for all these great players to continue, and the emergence of the Euro to show that correct technique with practice and dedication is what matters, not the nature of the shot.
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As an addendum,
Johnny Horton can and does do the "Whip" motion, but that's for show, right before he tosses you his partner's car keys and says, "Park it!".
I've seen him in Tampa warm up many a time, and his monstrous pull is just as compact and as fluid as any of the other proM's i've seen, and he only adds the flair for style, I think. Or perhaps he has to, in keeping with his professional showmanship. His deadly pull can be seen on "1000 Miles to Brokeland" with Brendan against Terry and Tommy. And yes, very very smooth, with the characteristic slow takeoff and then its all done with a Bam!
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My pull is slow im good at reading D, so it gets forwards mad at there goalie saying they could race me and cut me off ,no way there is always a hole to hit, my pull is pretty much my foot never leaving the ball until it strokes in no recoil that just wastes energy I am no exspert but the less motion the better ,like I said I am slow to most people, learn to hit the holes speed will come.Try not to over think this shot practice correct ,reread icemans info ....
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Is this a 7 stroke in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzN-GOqM_RI
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Something I've noticed on the Tornado tables is that you can shoot some really fast shots while being totally relaxed and going at 75% speed or tension. Or in other words, being very relaxed. I watched a martial arts master pluck a coin from a palm of a student. His movement didn't seem in a hurry at all yet he got it every time. The key was how he started so relaxed that it was plucked before the student even knew he was moving. It's something like that, finesse, smooth easy beginning ending in the power that the beginning naturally increased to a thing of beauty. Harsh hard movements require exact repetition while smooth controlled movements are within our ability to compensate albeit sub-consciously. I used to think that this game was about being faster than anyone I played, a natural short sighted view of a young man. I'm seeing now how fluidity of motion can really shape your game in a good way. If they are beating you long, how sweet is it to pull as long only to back angle into a wide open tweener? Going balls out rules this out for the most part. Control, at 75 to 80% speed is really a good way to play. Try that pull totally relaxed and just moderate in your power expenditure. When you find it you will understand. When you use it in competition, you will feel great confidence. Life is good.
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My pull is slow im good at reading D, so it gets forwards mad at there goalie saying they could race me and cut me off ,no way there is always a hole to hit, my pull is pretty much my foot never leaving the ball until it strokes in no recoil that just wastes energy. I am no expert but the less motion the better, like I said, I am slow to most people, learn to hit the holes speed will come.Try not to over think this shot practice correct ,reread icemans info ....
That is so true. I relearned my pull years ago, after going to see Horton and Yore in Tampa. And Loffredo too, who was spending a ton of time there. Started by setting the defense in three basic sets: standard with the straight open, standard with the goalkeeper's near 2bar between his 2nd and 3rd dots (for a "short 7" or "pump" stroke), and crossover with the deadbar open. Didn't shoot faster and faster, just the same speed, training my fingers, wrist and forearm to remember remember remember the three strokes. After a couple thousand relaxed shots, I was finally able to go and win a couple of locals easily with what seemed like a slow pull to me, but seemed to "freeze" the D. No stress or strain, no need for Glucosamine-Chondroitin complex with MSM.
If you really watch Yore and Loffredo and TracyM, it seems during the pull that the surface "slides" under the bar, instead of the bar moving over it. If your eyes were the camera, it was as if the camera was on the rod, with the floor beneath moving. I'm now doing the same thing with a rollover, but with no shake or wiggle. Smoothness is still the key, just a takeoff and shoot.
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It's called economy of motion.
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I also believe that because you're relaxed you have a better timing and combined with the right speed your scoring percentage is going straight up.
That goes with every move you make in the game...