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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: thebodygroove on April 08, 2008, 04:24:06 AM
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Hi US-foosers,
I've had a little conversation with UK's Boris Atha about the pros and cons of the Snake Shot and the Euro-Pin. As I began to pepper him with more and more questions, he suggested posting the stuff in the Britfoos-Forum, and I thought it wouldn't be amiss if I put it in here as well.
So this is how where we got so far, please let me know what you think about it:
As a newbie from Germany, I'd like to use the opportunity of getting opinions from members of another "foos-culture". As you might know, most guys in Germany use variations of the Euro-Pin, and some players even frown on the Snake Shot (don't ask me why, since it's not entirely clear to me). Thus, it's not easy to get an unbiased statement about advantages and drawbacks of either shot. But with the increasing spread of hollow rods and American Foos-videos the Snake Shot players are growing in numbers, and the question which shot is "better" has become a big issue in German Foosball-forums.
My question: I'm currently trying to figure out which shot I should practice. I'm a total beginner and want to learn something that helps me win (against other beginners). I play on a Leonhart Homesoccer with solid rods at the office. (This table is the home version of the Original Soccer and similar to the Lehmacher P4P. For those who don't know either of them: It's much closer to the Garlando than to the Tornado, but it's softer and offers more ball control, mostly because of the ball itself.)
Most comments and articles I've read say that the easiest shot for beginners is the Snake Shot. So I tried practicing it, but it keeps feeling awkward. Then I tried the Euro-Pin - and to my astonishment, it seems to work right from the start. It just seems like it takes less effort to get the shot into one single, fluid motion, whereas the Snake stays jerky and laterally slow (perhaps because of the heavy rods?).
What do you think about those techniques compared to each other? Is it really all about on which table you play? On a Tornado, how can the Snake Shot be easier than the Euro-Pin, considering that this table provides little control (compared to the German tables) and the lateral movement has to be achieved using the wrist instead of the palm? Seems paradox to me. Same goes for shots for beginners: How can the snake shot be easier? Why does everyone say that? I’m confused.
And this was Boris' answer, to which I, in turn, replied:
Most people use the wrist for the snake shot, as when the rollover is completed the rod can be grasped naturally preventing a spin. It is one of the shots which, when learned, can become effective very quickly whereas other shots tend to start off slowly and speed/accuracy/effectiveness improves over time.
I still wonder why this is so; to me, the movement of the Snake seems pretty complicated, mostly because of the recoil. Would you agree with me when I say that without the recoil, the Snake Shot is practically useless?
As to the Pin Shot, the recoil seems to be more like a "natural" part of the movement and doesn't have to be executed deliberately. Any experiences with that?
Boris:
The snake is superior to pin on Tornado at present because the balls are hard and there is less grip than with european foot/ball/playfield combinations. The balls are also heavy (c28g) which means that more effort is required to change direction so a walking pin is slower. With the snake and pull shots which dominate on Tornado lateral movement is in one direction.
These words were most helpful to me because they cleared up a misunderstanding: When you (and obviously most of the authors on the internet) talk about the Pin Shot, you mean the whole tactical system of the movements that can become involved using this technique, like walking the ball and going long lateral distances.
I, in contrast, was only referring to the technique as such, like when you're practicing: Pin the ball, move it to one side and shoot it in. So I was comparing the Snake and the Pin on a level where the trajectory of the ball would be the same.
By this rationale, I'd say that, while using the Pin Shot, since you control the handle with your palm instead of your wrist, there should be an advantage over the Snake Shot especially on tables that hinder ball control. What do you think about that?
Boris :
So in summary I would say that the snake gives you speed and power, whereas the pin gives slightly less speed/power but more versatility and finesse.
I'm new to the game, but from what I've experienced so far, lateral speed is far more important than a super powerful shot. So what I'm practicing right now is basically a Snake Shot system with a Euro Pin technique: Pin the ball in the middle, quickly move it to one of the corners and shoot it in. The reason why I do this is because I find it much easier to get the ball to one side with my palm controlling the rod (instead of my wrist). In my opinion, there's no need for walking the ball if the shot is quick enough, but should it be case one day that I'll want to incorporate walking the ball into my game, I'll be prepared for it since I'll already be using an appropriate technique.
Why don't I just go for the kind of Pin Shot all the Lehmacher players use? Because I want to learn something that I could transfer to a Tornado when I need to.
Would you say this is good thinking? Or have I again fallen victim to a misunderstanding?
So I’d really appreciate to hear your opinion about that issue, and you’d do the Kraut-foosers a big favour if you could go a little into detail concerning the various aspects of the Snake vs. Euro Pin “problem”.
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I would love to comment on this but I don't have time. About to go to work. Maybe you can twist Brad of TSR's arm to comment. He has had many of the same experiences on different tables across the world as I have and would be very qualified to comment on this subject. I will do so when i get off work later tonight.
Hey Brad, how's the snow...geeez. How do you do it?
ICEMAN
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Hi Iceman,
take your time - I'm not in a hurry. Doesn't learning foosball take a lot of patience anyway?
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Body,
great to have you on the board, thanks for posting...good questions...I was going to recommend Iceman for sure since he has faced so many of both and Brad certainly has seen all the best of both on all the "official" ITSF tables (as well as others I am sure)
obviously Fred has shown that a Euro pin can be done effectively on Tornado...several of the Euro tables seem to pose some challenge for rollover shooters I have ideas on the reasons but Brad and Iceman can provide you the details
since starting back in the game 4 years ago, I have read and been told how easy it is to learn the rollover...I can shoot everything on the table and have not found this to be true...I think this is true for most people but not an absolute universal truth
i have found that some shots are more "natural" for some people...like, the first time I tried doing a Euro Pin pull side I could hit it deep, fast, and accurate from the first time I mounted it up...however the push side has been really really difficult and learning all the ball control and finesse part of it is a totally different story
each shot has advantages the other doesn't assuming all things are equal...meaning, you have people at the same level of maturity with each shot being compared...so if you start at the top and look at the best of each, you can see the differences on how they are used and the features and benefits each proposes regardless of learning curve
I think part of your decision will have to be made based on what table(s) you will play on most...Tornado players are basically rollover and pull shooters and between those two shots have been able to deal with table differences in international competition but it isn't an easy transition (unless you are a foosball freak of nature like Tommy Adkinson who made the transition to a multi-table look easy)...on the other side, most Euro Pin shooters have trouble dealing with Tornado more because of ball control issues than with ball weight or rod style...Fred has moved beyond that because his ball control is at another level compared with pretty much anyone in history...
however, Tornado is trying to find the right balance to give their ball more control and I feel confident that some of this will be addressed and this will narrow the control differences between Euro tables and the Tornado
I think for the beginner the rollover in general is the better shot because for most it is easier to learn and it is very satisfying when you hit it and it is a crowd pleaser for people who don't know the game
with all this said, I would not totally dismiss the pull shot, it seems to me, more and more players, young players, are choosing the pull or having it as a second frequently used shot...it has issues with Euro tables to because of set up and some other design issues on the other tables (as well as stubbing with some of them which IMO have too much control)
anyway, much more about details that can be said but I will leave that to others
again, good to have you on the board and thanks for the good questions
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We had a discussion about this at HoFC...
From what I've observed, the non-rollover front pin is THE shot. It's virtually immune to lousy table conditions (save a super-slick Sportcraft/Harvard/Chinese POS) and has soooo many options. Kind of like a well-executed pushkick. ;)
Right now, Tony Spredeman's shot is the closest thing to Rico's front pin. Tony's ability to move the ball around, fire to different spots and use fakes to pull a defender off a hole makes his shot extremely effective. Not to mention being explosive to either shooting side. Oh... and his five is simply awe-inspiring.
The euro-style front pin gives you the added option of using cut shots through the middle. Billy Pappas popularized the "walking snake", but I think Tony has really taken it to the nth degree.
Having said that, obviously it's not an easy shot to master... or even do adequately for we mere humans. That's not to say it isn't worthwhile practicing it. Anything you can add to your arsenal will help in the long run.
When talking about which shot or shots to learn, my advice to new players has always been to play A LOT and try to learn everything BUT a rollover at the beginning. It does two things; it builds the wrist strength and helps learn basic ball control. The greatest weapon a player can have is depth. The more areas in which you're proficient, the better your chance of winning.
Another piece of advice I can give is be to observant. I was always amazed at how Billy can get such consistent power on his shots or how Collignon manages to rip that push-side front pin. So started to really watch the player instead of the rod or the ball. It's helped me with my 2-rod shooting and I've managed to even develop a marginally proficient front-pin.
Study the mechanics... watch how Billy holds the handle or his stance when shooting. The same goes for Rico. Watch how he keeps his thumb out of the way when he shoots or the arm angle he uses to clear his body with his elbow. It's very similar to pitching. Small changes in mechanics can have a big effect. Pick your favorite player and watch what they do. Copying is perfectly legal in foosball. ;D
Since everyone seems to want to be a video producer, maybe I'll break out the camera (w/tripod) and show some of the observations I've made about shooting a front pin. 8)
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good advice about trying to learn the different basic wrist shots to help with ball control skills and wrist build up and then I assume you mean some time in the future pick a primary tournament/money shot?
it takes mighty will power not to focus in on one thing so you can score sooner in the beginning but I very much like your idea
lets say he has been playing around and his wrist is fine, his ball control is coming along, and he continues wrist stuff practicing his two bar
what then do you say about choosing a shot...specifically rollover vs Euro Pin but I am curious about other shots pull ect
the game needs more free video and anything you can add will be helpful to the overall game, I for one would like to see it
oh, and just for the record, the backpin is the best shot on the table if you are going to take as much time needed to master all the front pin options, you might as well choose the best shot in foosball 8)
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good advice about trying to learn the different basic wrist shots to help with ball control skills and wrist build up and then I assume you mean some time in the future pick a primary tournament/money shot?
Yep... eventually you'll settle in on one main shot, although another topic we discussed was using two different shots depending on the situation/opponent, a la Tommy Adkisson. He shoots a rollover and pull with equal skill. Another baseball comparison might be the switch-hitter.
it takes mighty will power not to focus in on one thing so you can score sooner in the beginning but I very much like your idea
That's why I say "play as much as possible". If you limit yourself not only to one shot but also to one mode of play, the fun can go out of foosball very quickly.
lets say he has been playing around and his wrist is fine, his ball control is coming along, and he continues wrist stuff practicing his two bar
what then do you say about choosing a shot...specifically rollover vs Euro Pin but I am curious about other shots pull ect
I'll use my son as an example, who is a pro now... when he started playing seriously, I wouldn't let him shoot a rollover because I didn't want him to fall into that "dependence" I often see with newer players. They find themselves in goal and have a tough time simply clearing the ball. Anyhow, he developed a monster pullshot but doesn't use it too often because of elbow problems and now shoots primarily a rollover. He can still bring the heat from goal though.
Here's what happened to me lo those many years ago. When I first got interested in playing, there was a tournament taking place in one of our local large shopping malls so I thought I'd go watch. I had only a small notion of how the game was supposed to be play. What I did see at that tournament was Ken Alwell shooting a pushkick. I decided at that moment I was going to shoot a pushkick too. Eventually Ken and I became friends and I still marvel at his shot.
Bottom line is that as I said earlier, find your favorite player and use them as an example.
the game needs more free video and anything you can add will be helpful to the overall game, I for one would like to see it
I was kind of half-kidding about the video, but I think it could show that even mortals could shoot a decent front pin with the right instruction and a little practice. I'd just like to see people challenge themselves and strive for something instead of taking the path of least resistance.
oh, and just for the record, the backpin is the best shot on the table if you are going to take as much time needed to master all the front pin options, you might as well choose the best shot in foosball 8)
Well... I guess I'd have to go with a kick-shot, either push or pull. Not to precipitate on your organized procession, but the Tornado really isn't conducive to a backpin due to the man being so close to the play surface. The backpin also restricts your options for a middle. Anything that's going to be directed at the middle is going to have a discernible look and will be fairly easy for a competent goalie to pick up on. The rollover and pull (and front-pin) each have an "instant straight". Not so a backpin.
All opinion of course. ;D Hey... it's still foosball to me! I love it all.
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Thanks oh mighty wise one for sharing. How hard would it be to include full body shots of these guys right before they shoot. I love the footage of the close-up shots but I do find myself wondering where there feet and body are many times.
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Hi Tuna and Brad, thank you so much - I feel like my shots are improving from just reading your posts! If you don't mind, I'd like to take the discussion even further into detail (is that how you would say it?) since I feel I'm surrounded by sheer competence here...
So I'll be back posting some more questions. Thanks again for the extremely helpful answers and the cordial welcome to the board!
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Ok, my two cents.
First let me say Boris and Brad have hit the nail on the head.
Snake on a tornado. Another reason that a snake is so easy and effective on this table is the use of the counterweighted man. In the rock portion of the shot, slight pressure is applied. In the release, all pressure is released. Because of the counterweighted man's balance is centered toward the rod itself, the release is quick and smooth. In other words, you only feel the weight of the rod. In most Euro designed men however, the critical mass resides in the foot, farthest away from the rod like the Bonzini. On these tables using the snake, you now have to deal with rotational weight of the man in addition to the weight of the rod. Even though the Bonzini rod is lighter and quicker than the Tornado rod, the rotational weight of the man makes the snake very hard to shoot on this table. It's simple physics really. I guarantee if you could measure the force applied at the connecting point of a Bonzini man compared to a Tornado when the rod is spun, the Bonzini would be exponentially greater.
The Euro table I have found that best supports the snake is the Garlando. Why? The rod is lighter than the Tornado rod and the man has low rotational weight. That being said, the lateral speed of the shot increases. The lateral speed of the snake on the Garlando is simply incredible. Two tables you are familiar with, the Techball and the Fireball, support the snake because the men have low rotational weight. But because the rod is slightly heavier, the lateral speed is not as great.
The pin. No doubt, when well executed, is the best shot on the table. The options that exist are almost limitless. The more options that you become efficient at, the better your chances at scoring. In most pin shots, the man never passes the line horizontal to the table so rotational weight is not a factor. So how do you negate that heavy feel of the men? Lighten the rod. This is where the lateral speed comes from on most Euro styled tables. The weight in the foot on the pin shot helps in the "strike" portion of the shot much like holding a hammer at the bottom of the handle to drive a nail vs. holding it at the top near the head. I don't think I need to say this is why Rico is so proficient at scoring. He has at least 15 good options to score on when most people have only about 5 or 6.
With all that being said, you have a bit of a dilemma. You are in an area that has tables that support all styles of foosball. Actually, I envy you. You're going to have to decide what your commit level to game is going to be and use that as your learning curve. Do you want to be a speed, power, finesse, or some combination of these type of player.
Options are the key. The more options you have on the most tables, the more versatile player you can become. The flip side to more options however means more time invested in the learning of these options, which is why I say you will have to decide your commit level.
You have a lot of good people to watch to learn from. Tim Ludwig, Chris Marks, Sascha, Eric, and Jamal are players you can watch and learn from. By the way, If you ever see any of these guys, tell them Iceman says "Hello".
Sorry for the long boring post, I get carried away sometimes. Feel free to ask anything else.
ICEMAN
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Iceman,
you have apologized for long posts now several times and I can't speak for everyone but I want to tell you that they are not too long, you always have thoughtful logically orgainzed posts
there is so little available in writing on these subjects and it is seldom top players and/or good teachers take the time to explain things...I think it is great for the game and want to encourage you to continue to post regardless of length...I have been collecting everything I can get my hands on for years now and am a very big fan of this sort of posting because our game/sport does not have available written material and there are so many areas in the world that don't have good players to pass on the knowledge...I have collected this stuff in hopes of leaving it all as a legacy to this generation...
I am selective about what I gather but I am not particular the source, just the content and communication capability...I never experienced you posting like this on that other site (rarely) and it is a pleasure to read you here, you are a good communicator and teacher, one of the better ones I have run accross...you are in good company, I put you (IMHO) toward the top with names like Todd (my favorite), Gummy, and Eric Dunn
so, I say post more and post often not for me but for foosball historically...I think it is very important to the advancement of the game
Thank you
PS Brad too, this is no slight to you, this was just prompted by Iceman's apology...I think your posts are very well thought out and you are a fine communicator too
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PS Brad too, this is no slight to you, this was just prompted by Iceman's apology...I think your posts are very well thought out and you are a fine communicator too
Just don't get him talking about photography. Then you'll be begging him to stop. ;)
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This conversation has a very nice tone to it. I wish more places in the internet were like that!
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Iceman,
I have to agree with Charles here as well..I like to read what the experienced players have to say. It's information alot of people ARE interested in. I've been teaching people to play this game for over 25 yrs and when I see that the better players in our game willing to let others know some insight to this game which we love..I commend it..I wish more people would do so...Cause we all want the sport to advance.
I'm not sure how long I've been on this sight but I can tell you that it's nice to see everyone willing to share what they know and love about this game. That's why I love coming on this site....To see what has been said on any given day..We all can learn from someone else no matter how long we've played for...Right?...So please keep on posting..No matter HOW long it is...I'm sure I speak for most when I say we love to absorb the wealth of knowledge from you as well as others who do the same...I know I do!!!!
P.S. I don't see the same things on the other site, as I do here..(discussions on how to play the game) That's why I no longer go to that other site. People like Ice, BBtuna, EDGEER and so on make it kinda like a foosball family...To me that's what it's all about...Teaching and learning our sport!!!!!!!!
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Brad,
on the backpin...the lack of a straight is the most common comment about the backpin made by people who have never faced a good one...I love facing goalies like this, it is a big advantage until they catch on that they need to defend the middle as much as the corners
you can not raise your man and strike the ball straight and you can not flip it over like you do with a front pin but you can shoot straight off the same exact move as a long in either direction by moving the ball about 1/2 inch and you can come back to the hole, hit it right at that 1/2 inch mark, or cut back
people who approach me thinking the backpin can not go straight quickly learn that is not true...
it is a superior shot to the front pin because you can shoot shorts better, the "chip" is not a "chip" it is a brush which on today's table means more control and reverses are much much easier and more natural and you can do them so many ways to so many holes it is overwhelming at times
and if you are inclined to do kicks and things again the ball starts in perfect position and the kicks can look so much like the core shot - I rarely use them but depending on the circumstance, I will throw one in once in a while
you can hit deadman easier than any other shot (though I never try for this)
you can shoot long from any position starting 1/2 inch from the hole you want to hit all the way across the goal
you can hit every hole along that continuum push, pull, or reverse
you can do the same with no fake, with a fake (from a very small move to an exaggerated move and everything in between)
you can fake by walking, sliding, pounding and you can do all shots, short to long from any position in front of the goal
you can use the 31 and 33 man if you are inclined within the normal scheme of the shots core competencies
it has two weakness, one perceived (besides the straight) and one that is real and has to be dealt with
1st…the ball starts quite a bit further back, relative to the goal mouth than front pins (Euro or rollover) so the ball will take longer to reach the goal because it has to move about 2 ½ inches further at the strike point…however, this is only a perceived issue because the back swing on the backpin can and should be, much less, or nothing, compared with the move used in a open-handed motion of a Euro Pin or the flip motion of the rollover…I have watched a ton of Fred in slow motion, frame by frame and even as compact has his open-handed roll is, it is still quite high so in the end, all things are equal
2nd…the start of the shot from a dead stop is much harder than on other shots because of the muscles involved already holding the ball in the backpin position…this makes the lateral movement of the shot slower unless this is dealt with…this post is already too long so I won’t go into the detail behind this right now
so, all this is just talk from an unknown unproven backpin shooter and until a talent like Billy or Ryan takes the shot up, I will just be part of a lonely 3 salmon struggling up stream but I will continue to voice the truth during my foosball life and hope that someday a backpin champion appears and shows the foosball world what really can be one
I am making plans to film my backpin and if I can do what I want, I will demonstrate all these things
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Well said BB....You're not the only fish swimming upstream...I'm a killer shark swimming with you waiting to eat some other fish...lol...
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Hi,
I've read this topic trough and it's a nice discussion with many good tips and I'd like to add something to it.
I play competition in Holland in the SBN (Soccer Bond Nederland), in that competition it's allowed to choose your table as long it's a soccer table, so no wood like Topper or Jupiter and also no Bonzini. There's also a competition for wooden tables in Holland and that's played an the Topper 2000 http://www.tafelvoetbal.nl/Multimedia/Foto/Album-Speeltafels/Topper-Album.html (http://www.tafelvoetbal.nl/Multimedia/Foto/Album-Speeltafels/Topper-Album.html). On that table the snake is practically impossible because of the rods and hand grips. So the people that plays on that table are really pure pinners, so their pin is evolved and can shoot every corner they want, straight or crossed in both directions, I think that's also a advantage of the pin compared to the snake. Frederique plays in this comp and on this table it's not sure who is going to win when he plays to a dutch top player. But most of the players are 'limited' to pinning because you can't play different styles on this table.
In the SBN there are several players who use the snake as well as the pin on all kinds of tables. This season we got a Tecball, Leonhart and last but not least a Tornado(our home table 8)) in the competition. Some players do only pinning, until they come to us and than you see the 'limitation' of playing only one style. They are very, very careful and need a lot of balls to launch a good pinball. I learned myself to stay open for all the styles of playing, so Tic-Tac, Pin even a little bit of snaking, so when I play on the Tornado I do Tic-Tac en some push/pull kick which is effective because the other people are not used to it, when I play on Tecball I do more Pin, but also Tic-Tac. What I want to say is, be and stay open for all the styles and play as many on different tables to learn different shooting techniques and get a good ball control. In the end I choose the pin above the snake, because I grew up with it, but a advantage of the snake is that when your pin doesn't work anymore, the snake will, because you almost can't do it wrong!!!
Greetings Fastert
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Fastert,
great post, good having you on the board...thanks for taking the time to share
i am really beginning to love the international flavor of foosball and wish I was young again
I wish we had some table options here to experience the different styles...I still hope, on a different but sort of related note, that all the European tables bring there build quality up and that there are some standards on materials, rod weights, ball weights...not the same for all but a min and max range
even still, i evny the European community of fooser and am glad to see you all playing and working so hard...I hope the future has more and more exchange
thanks again and welcome a"board"
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Two tables you are familiar with, the Techball and the Fireball, support the snake because the men have low rotational weight. But because the rod is slightly heavier, the lateral speed is not as great.
Iceman,
so you know these tables, too? That's very interesting, because I'm planning to get a Fireball for my basement. Would you say that practicing on a Fireball also benefits one's skills on a Tornado? And did you like the feel of the Fireball?
Cheers
Pat
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The Fireball is about as close as you'll get to a Tornado but "stickier". Probably close to the Tornado prototype that was in Las Vegas... no side strip, softer ball. In fact, it's probably closer to a Shelti because of the foot of the man. It seemed to be solid and well built, though. We didn't have a Tornado ball handy, but I would guess if you used one the play characteristics would be fairly similar.
I wasn't overly fond of the large foot. It seemed strange. We saw the Fireball at the Garlando WCS last year and here was this table that had men with great big feet surrounded by a sea of tiny-footed Garlando men. :) I LOVED the handles, though.
As for the Tecball, it's probably my favorite of the european tables. If they can get their production volume up and get the cost a little more reasonable, I'd love to see them in the U.S.. I think it's a viable choice of tournament table.
BA
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Brad,
is the foot actually bigger than Tornado foot (which I think is already large) or does it just seem larger because of the small head on the man...I was looking at a picture of the table the feet look a lot like Tornado
http://www.a-better-tablefootball.be/fireball.htm
on the Techball, I heard it plays a lot like the Brown Top TS table which I played on in the early years (and I still own one)...the men look identical which maybe why people say that but I am curious how it really plays and what characteristics you find most compelling.
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Brad,
is the foot actually bigger than Tornado foot (which I think is already large) or does it just seem larger because of the small head on the man...I was looking at a picture of the table the feet look a lot like Tornado
No, the foot is indeed larger, again similar to the Shelti. It could be worse... at least they're not the microcephalic figures a la Johnny Lott's design which in my opinion look flat out weird.
on the Techball, I heard it plays a lot like the Brown Top TS table which I played on in the early years (and I still own one)...the men look identical which maybe why people say that but I am curious how it really plays and what characteristics you find most compelling.
I think the man is really the only similarity to the TS brown-top. The comparison comes when you're talking about the ability to bank, better at chips/angles, etc. I like it because it's a bit of a faster table. The one thing I really DON'T like is the jingling of the washers on the rods. It just sounds goofy. I also like it simply because it's foosball on something other than a Tornado. In Italy, I played as much on the other tables as possible, spending very little time on the Tornado. No better or worse, just to play on a different table.
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thanks,
that jingle sound reminds me of TS days...that also may be a reason people compare it to a Brown Top (or green or blue when it comes to the jingle)
i would love the opportunity to play all those other tables...I suspect I wouldn't like quite a few things but I would find the entire experience a lot of fun and helpful to my game...TS made quite a few changes while I was playing, I came in at the end of the Green top and so started on that, changed to Blue, and of course played the brown...all of these had pretty unique differences especially blue/green to brown and I also played on Dynamo (and some other one off brand tables) and I never found it a big deal to move from one to the other but there were play characteristics that I had strong opinions about (imagine that)
however, overall I liked all of them...my least favorite was the Brown Top and it is ironic I still own the one I bought in 80 or 81
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As for the Tecball, it's probably my favorite of the european tables. If they can get their production volume up and get the cost a little more reasonable, I'd love to see them in the U.S.. I think it's a viable choice of tournament table.
BA
What was it that you liked about that table in particular? From what I've heard, it plays pretty much like a P4P, but I HATE the look of the goalie on the goal line... even worse than the Tornado's three goalie men, in my opinion.
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Wow, what a week.
I was gonna post late Wed. night but fell asleep only to wake up to Tornado( of a different kind ) warnings. These are quite common in my area considering I live in Tornado Alley. Then the reporter states that there is rotation within a mile or two of my location and if you live in this area, TAKE COVER, because there might be a tornado wrapped in rain. Not words I wanted to hear. I look outside and realize that I am in severe danger. I see not one but two funnel clouds spinning overhead. Thankfully for me, they kept moving and didn't touch down. I was lucky, but others were not. There were two confirmed plus three possible tornadoes that touched down later that morning. I guess my price for escaping the funnel clouds was getting food poisoning later that day at work. Only now do I feel comfortable venturing more that 10 feet away from a bathroom.
With all that said, it's good to see the thread is still going strong. This is what foosball is all about people. How cool is it that people from all over the world are commenting, taking, and giving advice on a given subject. Priceless. And Brad, you dun gone and dun it pal. Ok now about photography, first you need to ........................ just kidding.
Hey Fastert, if you know Hank Hobbits( I'm sure I spelled his name wrong ), Tell him Iceman said Hello.
And bodygroove, I am with Brad with his feeling of the Techball. The reason the we like the table the most is because it supports all styles of play. Not just an American, French, Austrian, Italian, German, British, or any style of play for that matter. This table supports every style out there, of which I think is awesome. Think of it, one table that supports everyones style of play. No one has a distinct advantage because of the table you are on. In a sense you have purified the aspect of competition, because now if someone does have an advantage, they have earned it through sheer hard work.
ICEMAN
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Iceman,
good to hear you are okay and its good you are back
what you describe with the Techball is what I have wanted for Tornado since coming back 4 1/2 years ago
Tornado table changes was the topic of my very first post on Ezboard
this leads me to the idea about equipment standars
I have said it on here too, the game needs recoginized equipment standards especially since there are so many competition tables
I don't think all the tables should play exactly the same, just like Tennis with hard surface, clay, grass and even changes within each of these but there are standards for the demensions of the court, height of net, ball, rackets, etc ... same with all sports
foosball has tables with each differnet size play fields, balls, rods, handles, foot size, goal, etc...I think some should have absolute standards like play field size and goal size (width, height, and shape) and the others I think need to have minimums and maximums and as soon as possible approved materials
as an example the ball...I think this should either take the route of the tennis ball or baseball with very tight almost absolute standards or at the very least have a size standard and weight range and again eventually when more is know, a material guidelines and/or absolutes
I think I would seriously consider if telescoping rods should be allowed for competiton play and I further think a table should be able to pass certain tests which prove it to have a minimum stability during games so the table does move all over the place when Billy steps up rips a pull shot...watching the video of Billy shooting a pull on Bonzini for example, I thought the table was going to explode
anyway, this is a hot button for me so I am glad to hear there is at least one table that can support all shots and play styles
I pretty much said the same back in November on this site on this thread
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=1301.msg4254#msg4254
however, like pretty much every other sport, I think there should be standards and/or tolerances like playfield (size, approved materials, level), rod specs (length, diameter, weight, material), Men (foot size/shape, height from table, distance from each other) , side strip (size, etc) , bumpers, handles (size, material, changeable, etc) , ball (length, diameter, weight, material), table height/weight (and other dimensions), score/game/time out posts, and finally goal size (height, width, shape).
The trick is to do this and still allow each table to retain its own unique personality...I think it can be done if the key requirements provide the right tolerances and/or variables (like available material for man, table surface, and balls).
I am totally cool with the idea of the best player being determined by who can play best on a variety of tables…Fredrico has shown that he is the best (ever in my opinion) because he dominates on every table and has for 10 years or more.
I just think the players should NOT have to deal with things like the table surface not being level or the ball not being round or widely varying goal sizes or table weight. Lets build solid heavy tables (at least 400 pounds) for tournament competition that are level and have balls that stay round or are replaced often enough not to matter. I also think the size of the goal should be consistent…could you imagine football uprights each being a different width, or soccer goals, or hockey, or basket ball, or any well known sport where goals are scored?
No, there should be standards.
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And bodygroove, I am with Brad with his feeling of the Techball. The reason the we like the table the most is because it supports all styles of play. Not just an American, French, Austrian, Italian, German, British, or any style of play for that matter. This table supports every style out there, of which I think is awesome. Think of it, one table that supports everyones style of play. No one has a distinct advantage because of the table you are on. In a sense you have purified the aspect of competition, because now if someone does have an advantage, they have earned it through sheer hard work.
Iceman,
I'm sure the Tecball Crew would love to hear what an internationally experienced player has to say about their table; but does their concept differ so much from the other German tables? I think the Tecball (even though I haven't had the opportunity to play one yet) is no different from the other Lehmacher tables, which again are only copies of the Leonhart Soccer. From what I've heard, the surface offers a little more grip, but the men and the ball are just standard Lehmacher.
As to supporting all playing styles, the Tecball is pretty much a pure "New School" table that primarily supports ball-pinning styles. Tic Tacs work, but not as great as on a Tornado - as a newbie I wouldn't dare deliver such statements if it wouldn't be made perfectly clear by just looking at the form of the feet. So I was a little surprised reading about your appraisal of the Tecball's capabilities - but you're an experienced player and I'm not, so whoever reads this should feel encouraged to trust you more than me.
The one table that WAS contructed in order to support all styles of play is the Fireball. The form of the feet allow pinning styles as much as Tic Tacs and bank shots, the ball is the Tornado-Ball (only in a different color), and the surface is the same like the ones Lehmacher and Leonhart use.
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It's not so much the shape of the foot that supports the American style vs. the playing surface. Any surface that allows us to stop the ball and it stays there and any surface that rolls true or straight will support our style. I was able to set up and shoot pushes and pulls from a stand still, also tic tac pull and push kicks. Rob Atha was shooting his signature slingshots or scorpions from the two rod. I was able to shoot a good snake on the table. Brush passes and stick passes were possible. Was also able to set up a pull shot on the three rod. Jim of Insidefoos shot some pushkicks on it. So yeah, it supports our style.
I think we like it because it is of such heavy duty construction which is best for competition.
What did you think Brad TSR?
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It's not so much the shape of the foot that supports the American style vs. the playing surface. Any surface that allows us to stop the ball and it stays there and any surface that rolls true or straight will support our style. I was able to set up and shoot pushes and pulls from a stand still, also tic tac pull and push kicks. Rob Atha was shooting his signature slingshots or scorpions from the two rod. I was able to shoot a good snake on the table. Brush passes and stick passes were possible. Was also able to set up a pull shot on the three rod. Jim of Insidefoos shot some pushkicks on it. So yeah, it supports our style.
Oh, I see. But that really goes for all Lehmacher tables, not only the Tecball. What do you think of the P4P?
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Exactly which one is that.
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This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mZHh6bGB8I
You will notice that Billy is pull shooting on that table because when the tournament took place, the table still came with massive rods. They've changed that now to those space age hollow rods (they sell one single rod for about 60$!) which you had the chance to play on the Tecball, I guess.
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Yes, as a matter of fact, I did get to play on this table. And yes, I liked it. It is as you say a "new school" table that also supports Tornado style of play which is evident on the video.
I could be wrong, but I think the first time we saw the Tecball in Hamburg, it had solid rods of which I think the reason it was not sanctioned at the time.
ICEMAN
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Iceman,
I'm not sure about that - as far as I know, the Tecball always had hollow rods, but I might be wrong. Apart from the surface and the goals (and, obviously, the colors) Tecball and P4P are the same table.
Can you buy them in the US?
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well, I notice the ball plays like the old TS ball...very light (too light in my opinion) and not true round, it really limits what can be done
also, the men are not counter balanced so there is extra time spent trying to keep your rods up (also like TS)
in my opinion, part of a tournament table needs to be
* counter-balanced men so part of the game isn't spent balancing men
* true round ball, starts round, stays round, doesn't get ticks and is heavy enough to set up without trouble
* table build quality some basic standards which includes stability - this can be acheived by weight or some other method but it is important that the table not be easily jarred, is level at all points, and can stand up to strong play over an extended period of time
* scoring, game, and time out markers
* a standard size field of play and especially standard goal size
* and the ability to shoot all shots and passes
now, how these things are acheived is up to the table designers...the material the field surface, man's foot, and ball are made of will determine the tables individual unique play characteristics
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Iceman,
I'm not sure about that - as far as I know, the Tecball always had hollow rods, but I might be wrong. Apart from the surface and the goals (and, obviously, the colors) Tecball and P4P are the same table.
Can you buy them in the US?
You're wright, the tables come from the same manufacturer, Lehmacher. This company developed the Tecball especially for the ITSF.
Why didn't he just put the Lehmacher (P4P) with hollow rods to the ITSF? Because the P4P organisation didn't want that table to become a ITSF table, I think that was to protect their Tour and big tournaments in Germany and Europe. That's why Lehmacher made the Tecball. It's a P4P made to the ITSF standards, but the table isn't that good as the P4P table. The ball bounces up quickly, the poles of the goals give the same sound as an goal, so there are many discussions during a match when they shoot on the pole. But with all these negative characteristics it still is a nice table to play on and you can do all styles on it, maybe when the ball is dirty, the pull or push balls become less smooth.
@ Iceman: LOL, it's Henk Habets, Hobbits live in an other world ;), but I will when I see him, maybe this weekend, because we have a tournament in my home cafe on the Eurosoccer (also a great European table ;)) and he often comes to these tournaments.