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Chat Area => Archives => Topic started by: EDGEER on January 25, 2010, 02:37:37 AM
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Please visit
http://www.vifa.com/points2010/
Also, make sure to check out the 2010 Hall of Fame Flyer at
http://www.vifa.com/pdf/2010/2010HOF%20Tournament.pdf
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Please visit
http://www.vifa.com/points2010/
Also, make sure to check out the 2010 Hall of Fame Flyer at
http://www.vifa.com/pdf/2010/2010HOF%20Tournament.pdf
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Thanks for posting your responses I will try to answer a few.
Currently, doubles points determine your Division (Rank). Since the last major reset in 2006 very few people straddled two divisions. As time has gone by more and more players have moved past the threshold between divisions in one rating or the other. Some by outstanding play, and others because they are specialist in one event type.
As we proceed the USTSA wants to look into different ways to market tournament play to these players. However, packaged deals makes this process difficult. So for now and until a solution is determined as to how to best serve these players, you will see a few players that have singles points that do not match their division.
15 years later and i still have 2200!!!! I am the man.
Yes and No.
Starting this year if a player has not renewed their USTSA membership since 2004 they have been removed from the active list and placed on an non-published inactive list. Also, we are going to start deducting points from players that do not play in a USTSA event each year or renew their USTSA membership annually.
Gena, I will have to check into your question. I believe this is telling us that Moya can buy a Men's Semi-pro package or a Woman's Pro-master package. However, not both.
There are a bunch of players we need to come out and play that do not because they don't want to lose there "Official Rank". Hopefully, they will return at some point. But the way it is now there is no compulsion to play and they still get the bragging rights to go along with it. We need to get these folks off the sideline and back playing, at least once a year.
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Ed, I can see a number of Pro masters got reset to Pro at 2200. How the hell were these picked? If you are bumping Joe Rhodes down to pro you should have bumped down about 40 others too. There are a ton of examples of Pro Masters that should have been bumped down over an active pro master with decent results.
Just glancing at the list, Sam Dill, Mike Vandenbosch, Bill Maloney, Beau Murphy, Brian Piper, Merlin Arment, Loyd Mandel... These guys were never dominate and havent played in 5 years.
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Joe is a great example because he played Pro last year in IFP and killed it and Joe is one of the top 20 best players in the country
and you dropped JP Brown out of Pro and he may not be a high ranking pro but he is not semi either and if he gets to play semi I am certain he will be happy about that, he can actually go to the tournaments and make some money again
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People on the sidelines have always been a problem. You move them up and they quit playing, you move them down, they get offended and quit playing. You have to draw a line somewhere. I agree with you on most in your list and as time goes by they will be eventually dropped out of the Master division.
Same is true about people on the fence between divisions, they have always been a problem. I am not going to be the one to pick and choose. I think the system is very accurate within a range. The seeding of masters in Open events may have to be abandoned because masters do not get enough matches to build a cushion in case they lose to a Semi-pro or low rated pro team as Joe did at worlds. However, he did and if he truly is a Mater he should pick up the points necessary to become a master once again.
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Ed, I can see a number of Pro masters got reset to Pro at 2200.
They have an expiration date of 2003 or earlier I think.
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i guess the issue is that you don't have all the IFP data but to let one tournament drop someone like Joe into Pro for an entire year is not accurate...could be longer since Tornado doesn't have that many tournaments
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What? He played with a sponsor, no offense to Steve, but its not like he played with another promaster. If you are not going to be the one to pick and choose, who did? Or did anyone who's doubles rating dropped below the line get auto reset? He's top 30 in the world in singles who have actually played since Elo started. This is bad Ed, its great for Joe, but you are gonna have a division of players that will be pretty upset. I assume Texas State was ignored in this?
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I guess that is your opinion. He was borderline to start with at 2412 doubles points.
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Not trying to sound like a smart ass but, I guess he should pick his partners a little more wisely. Listen had he won a few matches he would have gained a bucket load of points. That's the risk he took playing with a low ranked pro. How can the system be at fault for this type of deal?
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Because it was stated clearly before, that someone would not drop rankings if they crossed the threshold. To prevent things like this.
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What happens when a player loses enough points to move down a rank? Let me state that our primary objective is to maintain an
accurate rating system. How that rating system affects the ranking system can be done in many different ways. The current plan
is laid out so that you must fall below a certain threshold and remain there for a period of time before USTSA will consider lowering
your ranking. For example, if you gain enough points to hit 1800 you will become a pro, but you will need to fall below 1600 points
and remain there for an extended period of time before USTSA will consider adjusting your ranking.
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And again, was Texas State not counted? And is Mixed no longer counted?
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Texas State is in the current book. Why do you think mixed should be a rated event?
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Because it always was until im not sure when. Certainly when elo started for the first 2 years. The Women have traditional points which should accurately represent there skill level, so its like playing any other event which is more data. Which is what Elo needs to function. Its not like before when women had 3000 points when they played at an 1800 level.
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I really have to agree with David on this one Ed. I've been entering in our local tournament data for 2 1/2 years into netfoos and understand how elo works. The more data you have, the better. I wouldn't go as far as saying that even DYP's should be included, but I really think OPEN MIXED should be included because the players pick their partners and WANT to win. ELO takes their combined points and calcualtes a probability of that team beating another team. Well, you know how it works. With the lack of tornado tournament data, including mixed seems like no brainer.
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Joe Rhodes - He took a brief hiatus from foosball (without much loss in skill - he is just talented), looses to a low ranked pro or a semi in Open last year and he drops to Pro? There is simply not enough data to properly rate Joe. If there were regionals and state tournaments like Tornado used to have and Joe attended just a couple of these last year, he would still be a PM.
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As i posted on TFB... Joe's results were:
HOF
Open Singles 17th lost to Dunn and Rosa
Open Doubles 13th lost to Moore/Moore and Bates/Cavalier
Open Mixed 9th lost to Dunn/Murray and Rosa/Pappas
Texas State
Open Singles 5th
Open Doubles 17th
Open Mixed 3rd
Worlds
Open Singles 25th
Open Doubles 33rd
Open Mixed 7th
He had a bad worlds. Other two tournaments, were fine. I guarantee he'd be a pro master still if Mixed counted, but there seems to have been some arbitrary decision to remove that. Though a lot of the Elo data we are basing these other transactions off included that. (I cant see Joe's point log any more, but i wonder if some of those 200 points he lost to get close to 2400 came from mixed...)
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Also, its obvious Elo was not what dictated his new points, he's 2200 and 2200. Theres no way he dropped that far in singles and doubles. He was consciously reset to this point. Again, who decided this and why? The whole, the system works if he deserves he'll go back up is find in theory but now he has to climb 200 points, as opposed to what Elo may have dictated.
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Also, its obvious Elo was not what dictated his new points, he's 2200 and 2200.
I will check into this I knew he dropped in rank but not like that. Kent was reset to 2200 because he hasn't played since 2003. Joe was not suppose to be.
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What about a player that was on the list as a semi but now is off the list do they start back at Amateur?
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We will have to deal with that when they buy their package. Until they enter one of our events it doesn't really matter, does it?
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ed that is a terrible answer, sort of condesending and rude
you haven't answered Dave's question on moving down ranks
Because it was stated clearly before, that someone would not drop rankings if they crossed the threshold. To prevent things like this.
and follow up
What happens when a player loses enough points to move down a rank? Let me state that our primary objective is to maintain an
accurate rating system. How that rating system affects the ranking system can be done in many different ways. The current plan
is laid out so that you must fall below a certain threshold and remain there for a period of time before USTSA will consider lowering
your ranking. For example, if you gain enough points to hit 1800 you will become a pro, but you will need to fall below 1600 points
and remain there for an extended period of time before USTSA will consider adjusting your ranking.
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Guys that is the way it's done now. I don't understand your point your trying to make. The USTSA ranks everyone in January and you stay there all year. If a player goes up in rank mid year they still get to play in the old one until next year. Then come next January the cycle starts all over again. We just produce the points, how they are used is up to an individual promoter. It is merely a recommendation of a players skill relative to all the other players.
If someone has been overlooked liked the Amateur Doubles winners at nationals that can be fixed and taken into account. With over 1000 results to review, it is possible we made a mistake or two. Just be kind enough to send me the information and I will look into it and get back with you.
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ED....
Can you share which tournaments in 2009 were used in the point calculations please?
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And what events as well.
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I will have to get back with you this evening.
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2008 Maryland States
2009 NC State
2009 National Doubles Championships
2009 Midwest States Foosball Championship
2009 Hall of Fame Classic
2009 Texas State Championships
2009 World Championships
2009 Houston City Championships
2009 National Singles Championships
2009 Maryland States
2009 Bart-O Celebration
2009 NC State
We did not include DYP's, Goalie War, Forward shoot-out, 3500, Mixed, Pro-Amatuer.
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considering the small size of the data available (compared with what ELO likes) why not include 3500, Mixed, Pro-Amatuer...just don't give them equal weight, count them as 40% of main events or something like that
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Who's we? And was it a conscious decision to stop using mixed or an over sight?
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They are specialty events. To many of the teams are made up of players that have no history together, its kinda like a bring/draw event. We are considering creating a separate division for mixed, pro-am and 3500 events in the future. Until then we have decided to leave them out of our ratings.
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Again who is we?
many of the teams are made up of players that have no history together
You mean like most of the events for most of the players?
The difference between mixed and limited is limited has restrictions on who can play, so it is almost impossible to plan this out before hand.
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The we would be Dave C., Gregg and Brian Elliot, Lynk, myself and whom ever else Dave consults with on these matters. However, Dave has the ultimate authority which events and what individuals rank are in the USTSA points book.
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EDGEER wrote:
As we proceed the USTSA wants to look into different ways to market tournament play to these players. However, packaged deals makes this process difficult. So for now and until a solution is determined as to how to best serve these players, you will see a few players that have singles points that do not match their division.
I don't know why most promoters keep ignoring this, GET RID OF THE PACKAGE DEALS, I firmly believe that package deals started the downfall of foosballs comeback in the late 80's. I know for a fact that one of the biggest reasons that the Bart O' foosball tournaments has had the biggest turnouts for tourneys its size ($7,500 to $15,000) over the last 10 years is due to no packages. With lower individual entry fees and no package deals you will have a larger turnout, fewer conflicts and a much smoother ran tourney that more people will want to come back to.
EDGEER wrote:
Starting this year if a player has not renewed their USTSA membership since 2004 they have been removed from the active list and placed on an non-published inactive list. Also, we are going to start deducting points from players that do not play in a USTSA event each year or renew their USTSA membership annually.
This will screw up the points system and allow for more sandbagging than ever before. They're hundreds if not thousands of players across North America that play in one or more sanctioned tournaments every year that don't go to or play at Worlds where they have to pay to have their USTSA membership renewed. I can think of about 2 dozen or more players just in Austin alone. We have a amateur team here in Austin that has 3 Amateur titles at the Bart O' (Mark Ross & Steve MacGregor), I don't know the last time that they renewed their membership, but now they're not even listed in the points update and I'm assuming that they're not going to gain any points for the 2009 Bart O' Rookie Doubles title, their 2nd Rookie Doubles title together and they also have a Semi-pro/Rookie Doubles title from the Bart O'.
quote:
Because it always was until im not sure when. Certainly when elo started for the first 2 years. The Women have traditional points which should accurately represent there skill level, so its like playing any other event which is more data. Which is what Elo needs to function. Its not like before when women had 3000 points when they played at an 1800 level.
I know that mixed Doubles at the 2008 Bart O' counted towards your points.
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Ed, check your PM
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Any player that is inactive in a rating system is most likely not correctly rated. We removed these inactive players because if they have not played in a rated event in a number of years, any rank assigned them cannot be accurate. However, with cooperation between promoters and the USTSA/TFL, a promoter can have their regional and State tournaments included in the USTSA/TFL points book.
The programmers have written an interface with Mark Winker's Netfoos that allows us to import results into the ratings database. So if you are interested in having your Tournament rated and your players added to the active points book, send me a email/pm and I will give you all the details.
Also, anyone who would like to be added to the active points book can call league headquarters at 800.544.1346 and ask about renewing or becoming a member.
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I'll bite...What do I get for renewing my "membership", other than having my name listed in the points list? Oh, and 1 or maybe 2 Table Talks (which is essentially a recap of the last Major Tornado Tournament, with a list of winners).
Poke....poke.....
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The programmers have written an interface with Mark Winker's Netfoos that allows us to import results into the ratings database.
Is this for any size event?
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I'll bite...What do I get for renewing my "membership", other than having my name listed in the points list? Oh, and 1 or maybe 2 Table Talks (which is essentially a recap of the last Major Tornado Tournament, with a list of winners).
Poke....poke.....
I responded to a PM with this.
Not much, but I am not the one that should answer that question. If I do not get the support of promoters like yourself then any hopes for a ratings system is futile. But like you pointed out, if you want to promote tournaments with divisions you are going to need to be part of a larger group such as the USTSA or IFP or something. Otherwise, your old pros that are not rated any longer will club all the baby seals in your event.
The best way is to call the USTSA/TFL league headquarters at 800.544.1346 and ask about renewing or becoming a member. If you make your event USTSA sanctioned and require all the players to be active members, I will provide you with the current ratings of your inactive players and help you set your tournament up in netfoos.
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I'll bite...What do I get for renewing my "membership", other than having my name listed in the points list? Oh, and 1 or maybe 2 Table Talks (which is essentially a recap of the last Major Tornado Tournament, with a list of winners).
Poke....poke.....
I took a long layoff from foos from 1991 to 2001. I didn't play again until 2008 in any tour events. Last year I played in Texas State and Worlds. Renewed my "membership" at Worlds, but still haven't sniffed the cover of Table Talk. To enter an event at Worlds I had to pay the dues and renew the membership, this is required. It seems to me that if you are going to require this then you should make sure you uphold you part. I know I'm using "you" but I don't mean you Ed, but the organization. I didn't do very well at Worlds in Semis, but I got 3rd in SP doubles at Texas State and my points dropped a bunch, from 1600 to 1463, this I do not understand. From what I understand about the ELO system there should not be major swings in points unless there is consistant losses or wins to lesser or better oponents. Again not harping on you, just trying to get an understanding of how things are done.
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Looks like the weighting of the ELO has been changed? Previously at a major you could maybe get just over 30 points maxiumum for winning and losing a match ( AM beating a promaster) . Now this is 50+ points? An AM beating an AM is probably at 30 points now, twice what it used to be.
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Bump
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Table Talk is now an online magazine. Go to www.vifa.com Depending on who you play your points can change up to 50+ points per match.
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Question: Do non-Pro Master players really care about how many points they have other than for determining their rank?
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Question: Do non-Pro Master players really care about how many points they have other than for determining their rank?
For those of us that had extended years that we did not play and had our points re-set from pro to semi-pro, and still aspire to one day achieve the rank of pro-master, yes we do care. I may be one of a very few that have that goal and the ability to achieve it, but I'm sure I can't be the only one.
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Paul, you are right...you're not the only one.
Also, the last Table Talk "on-line magazine" is from November 2008. Has anything been put out since then?
From the VIFA website:
Membership Benefits
• A USTSA Membership Card.
• Two directly mailed issues of Table Talk Magazine -the premier foosball magazine in the world.
• An accurate and updated listing of your Points in the Points Book and on the internet at www.vifa.com.
• The opportunity to play in Local, Regional and International USTSA Sanctioned Tournaments.
• The ability to be a part of the future of foosball in the United States and the world and the opportunity to meet lifelong friends who share your love for the sport of foosball.
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make sure your address is current with the USTSA ,sometimes it might not get updated at the tourneys due to the busy times in line, but call them 800-544-1346 or email INFO@VIFA.COM to ensure that you get the Tabletalk mailed to you
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make sure your address is current with the USTSA ,sometimes it might not get updated at the tourneys due to the busy times in line, but call them 800-544-1346 or email INFO@VIFA.COM to ensure that you get the Tabletalk mailed to you
Ben, you gotta listen to what I'm sayin...Table Talk hasn't been put out since November, 2008. Does it matter if you're on the mailing list or not?
Not that getting a magazine is a big deal, but that and the points tracking justified the $20/year. Now, no magazines and the points are only tracked if someone else turns them in and the formula seems to be a secret! lol
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i can hear ya Randy , i dunno exactly what the $20 goes towards, printing the Tabletalk either on paper or they now publish it online, plus website costs? and secretarial job (someone fills in part of the time to do the work of the USTSA in the office?)
they also do print the newer smaller points book 1/3rd the size of the older one now since the list of inactive players was purged,, im not sure exactly so for now its considered just a little tax ;)
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i can hear ya Randy , i dunno exactly what the $20 goes towards, printing the Tabletalk either on paper or they now publish it online, plus website costs? and secretarial job (someone fills in part of the time to do the work of the USTSA in the office?)
they also do print the newer smaller points book 1/3rd the size of the older one now since the list of inactive players was purged,, im not sure exactly so for now its considered just a little tax ;)
Isn't that stuff paid for with the $50 administration fee?
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No that fee goes to pay for as much of the venue cost as it can. So with 300 players that 15,000 to pay for shipping, set-up, insurance and to cover any cost the hotel through at you like $1025 to hang 4 banners.
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Wasn't the profits from the entry fees and package deals supposed to pay for that? lol I'm just giving you a hard time Ed, you don't have to answer that.
It just struck me wrong that you told a player that they are not getting Table Talk mailed to them because they are on-line now, when that's not really the case.
....Plus, I haven't smoked in 4 days so it doesn't take much to set me off right now. lol