Topic: NEEDED CHANGES ON TORNADO - the ideal table

[bbtuna]

I started to make some comments on this on the thread about palm rolls but here is my dream

If I could make an International Tournament Standard Table I would use the Tornado as my base and change the following:

The Mans Foot
the curve on the mans foot is enough to want to make me kill somebody...I shoot a backpin seriously and it is a pain to deal with it all the time...plus, it is the reason you can't hit accurate angles for kicks and banks....for the life of me, I can't understand why Tornado won't redeisgn the foot to flaten that surface...I guess they would have an initial cost for a mold but after that, it would not cost them a thing...no other change to the foot, same cut on the face, width, etc

Side Strip
the other thing I don't understand why they don't change, and this would not them nothing extra, is to make the strip on the side a little thinner...like Mark Murrell does when he replaces them...still works to keep the ball off the wall but doesn't make the ball jump into the air

Scoring Markers
Add chips for win by two up to eight and add a two smaller ones, one for time outs (near side), and one for games (far side) and an optional one for matches in case a single emlimination multi match format is used

Much Heavier Table
Add weight to the table for "Official Tournament Table"...150 to 200 pounds...I have done this at home using 25 pound bags of lead shot...this make a big difference on how vigorous you can play without jarring the !#$# out of people...

Adjustable Leg Levelers
change leg levelers back to the large metal pool table type feet and have a rubber bottom and edge so a table can be set directly on a hard surface.

Table Ends
the table ends, where the score markers are, invite people, especially the bar hack/casual player, to set drinks and other things on that surface...redesign it so that you can NOT put anything on the "ledge" (like Johnny Lotts table he designed for Medalist" ... drink rack build is optional using either a design like Johnny's or an after market attachement.  http://www.medalistgames.com/

Goal End Wall Material
The edge around the goal can get chipped after use especially if like me you hit the edge a lot...I understand there is formica that can be purchased which is much much stronger, nearly indistructable...if not, find a material that will behave the same and not crack or chip

Ball Control
Don't know the exact answer to this but what I would like to do is creat slightly more ball control...not a ton but more than Tornado has right now...acheieving this and keeping ball quality (staying true round) would be a balance of table surface, material of player foot, and the ball composition...changing composition of the table surface would probably cover it but there is a fairly significant change from a new ball (with fuzz) to a ball without fuzz and on...maybe this can't be helped so you live with it and just change the table surface

[grandmaster]

Better throw in a 3/8" Masonite playfield while you're at it or the SIDE STRIPS won't matter. Good post Charles. I think you're on to something. But you are wrong about the side strips, the ball is already IN THE AIR when it gets there. Gimme a decent foot for a backpin wouldn't hurt. Plus the Tornado has a basic fault that very few people are aware of that I will not reveal. Something so basic everyone overlooks it. Since it is proprietary information I will never reveal it except to Brunswick for money. It is the one thing wrong with the table since the inception of the 13 man teams. A flaw that is so simple yet important to the entire lifespan of the table. Anybody got a guess what it is?

[Old Meister]

Here, here! Back pin city! How about shortening the men a little too. Are you guys sure you didn't like my idea of having your own personal bar configured the way you like and having a table that made it easy to insert your bar without dismantling every thing? Seems like everyone could be happy that way.

[bbtuna]

proprietary to who?

[foosin joe]

I definatly agree with the goal protection, mine is starting to get chipped, especially from the side I practice on. Also, why not make the ball return on either side, when a goal is scored, it will go atomatically to the servers side.

[bbtuna]

the ball returning on both sides would suck for practicing so there would need to be an override...I am not sure the benefit is worth the cost impact to the table

speaking of this, I would love it if someone would design something so that the balls bi-passed the coin drop mechanism...today you can do it two ways, remove the tray and plug the hole so the balls don't go into the hopper but that means you have to reach deep in and pull them off the rail which sort of stinks...I have gotten used to it but it is a design flaw

the other way is to plug the coin slots but that means every 9 balls you have to push the mechanism in to get another set of balls...this creates unnecessary wear on the mechanism and stops the flow of shooting practice

[marty]

the ball return on both sides might not be so bad if your like me on my table
the yellow side gets way more play now and then i will move the balls
over to the other side for a tighter , newer play as far as the goal opening i lined mine with a thin thin coat of liquid nail then painted thats been over a year now still holding good, i tell  ya thats one thing i like
about the legand table the goal opening is doubled up

[grandmaster]

Hey BB, the pro practice tables were made so two pros could practice their 3 row shots at the same time. My favorite feature is the fact that my opponent has to ASK for a foosball all the time because they never score on me. With the pro practice table the ball comes back to the scorer's right hand to shoot again without bothering the other guy. I'm surprised a player of your experience hasn't played on a TS5/6  in the past. they were considered the ultimate at the time, 1977. My Tornado  version I had to build myself since they haven't made any yet. Don't get me wrong, I do my final preparation on the new, preferably latest production run coin op JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SERIOUS PLAYER in order to be competitive. And as always I stay prepared to play on any table any time.

[foosinaround69]

Personally the table is pretty much perfect the way it is. I mean some changes would be nice I guess. I don't have any problems with banking, If you hit the ball just abit deeper you will do fine. But the farther back you hit it you will be pinching the ball into the air it makes it jump. make sure the ball is in the middle of the man so you get a clean shot. Too forward results in inaccuracy. Too far back, you'll put it in the air.

I am a player who shoots a backpin Probably 90% of the time and I use the open hand method as well!! I have been playing for a number of years and have found something that works really well. I can tell you that it took some time of changing the position on the ball as to find the perfect way to do the best backpin you can possibly do. Let me tell you I have to score at least 85-95 % of the time. It has become the shot I become to be known for. I shoot it because It has become very hard to stop cause you can go pull side as well as push,middle,brush and get this a pullkick. So practicing is the key. People used to tell me that you shouldn't shoot that shot cause it isn't that accurate. Now them same people will tell me not to shoot anything else. I think if you slow the shot down and stay on the ball a touch longer than normal you can come up with what you are looking for as far as being able to make your palm shot better.   It is never as accurate as maybe a snake shot cause it is impossible to hit it in the same time every time because of the fact of you coming off of the ball. Try to stay on the ball longer and don't come off the ball so far. A big wind up is not something you should do giving your opponent a big heads up to block. Smooth it out and slow it down until you start getting it right and I promise you it will be a shot you'll be proud of. I am!!!       Let me know if that works! Keep foosin!!   

[bbtuna]

foosinaround69,

the table is solid and historically the best build quality table every made (at least the coin-ops)

it doesn’t need radical change but it needs well planned engineering adjustments…

Also, I think a person or company should strive to improve, to become the best and then to become good in ways never seen before setting new standards of excellence
A lot of ideas are driven from that

On bank shots (I don’t mean this as a personal attack)
There is always some body who during these “discussions” who comes out and says, “Tornado is fine, you can do banks, blah, blah, blah”

Listen, a person who has played on a table where banks can be done accurately consistently and are a part of the culture of the players who play on that table will clearly understand what I mean…yes you can hit a bank on Tornado if you get a thousand little details just right but you can’t do 18 out of 20 of the same thing in a row to the same place

The foot of the man on Tornado has a curve.  The curve makes it impossible to hit consistent and accurate angles…you can do it once in a while but you can’t count on itIf banks and angles could be done consistently on Tornado you would see Todd L and Fred doing them all the time AND you would see them used in competition regularly…people don’t do them regularly because you can’t count on them…PERIOD

So no more of this talk about “Tornado is fine you can do banks” … Tornado is fine 20 years ago but is not fine now and Tornado ownership needs to push toward world class excellence and I want to shoot banks and know I can count on them each and every time

[foosinaround69]

bbtuna,


         While I really don't take anything personally I will tell you that I can hit banks pretty consistanly. I know cause I shoot them all the time. I am sorry YOU can't and that is why I tried to show you how to do it. I have been playing on this table like anyone who has, since it has come out and I can asure you that noone can hit a bank every single time they set up the ball. Yes there always can be improvements
made on pretty much anything in the world. All I was saying was that with alittle more practice YOU too can hit them more accuratley. Besides isn't it more of a challange not to be able to hit every shot you try? It is for me!!!  Look, if the table gets changed and it is perfect for what YOU think is perfect, someone else will say different. You know what I mean?  As for Tony and Fredrico doing banks I don't think they need to do banks at all.  Hmm, why you might say. Well cause I think they are succesful enough not to concentrate on banks. I like to use the bank as a lane opener. Get your opponent to think you're going to bank and they will block you short and the lanes open wide!!! I can tell you that the short bank is more consistant than the far bank. So if you want to bank try that one!! I shot this 6 times in a row in a match and scored each time. Then came back to shoot it a few more times and scored on them as well.    I hope this doesn't start some kind of online argument cause I'm not into all that. I just thought I would give my 2 cents worth thats all. I have been playing for 20+ years and I love this game probably too much and I thought I could give some insight to something I knew about.!!! Happy Foosin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bbtuna]

Tornado and Banks, Part 1

I totally don't mind your opinion and a little online sharing of a difference of opinion is fine and we can do it like gentlemen

I grew up playing on tables that shot banks, I was quite good at them and I know what it means to play on a table that allows - now get this very specific phrase - consistent repeatable accurate banks - this means banks I can shoot with the same kind of accuracy and consistency as a pull shot

I appreciate your helpful hints about shooting banks but I am, if I dare say so myself, quite good at hitting shots...basically there is nothing I have seen that I can not do...I practice banks on and off wanting to stay in shape in case I get the benefit of playing on a table that rewards me for the effort...I shoot banks every now and again locally for fun and even in competitive play...I can say, for whatever it is worth, that I shoot them better than anyone in town - the issue isn't a little more training or knowledge, it is that the table doesn't lend itself to banks

on the foosballboard this bank discussion would come up and even though 98% (literally) of the players would say a person can't do them consistently on Tornado and even though a number of well known Pro-Masters would collaborate, still there was at least one person that would insist that you could shoot banks consistently on Tornado...this person gave evidence, much like you, of how much success they had and how it was just a matter of this and that

even though the physics of the table clearly point out what makes banks so difficult (for 98% of the people) this person would insist that everyone else got it wrong and they were all missing out

it may be that you and a couple of others can do banks fairly consistently but that is an anomoly, it is the exception that proves the rule...98% of the people can not shoot banks consistently on Tornado so that means that banks can not be shot consistently on Tornado

I brought up Fred and Todd for 2 reasons...first off, Fred plays on every competitive table in the world and can do anything and everything on a table...he is the best foosball player that has ever lived and he shows no signs of slowing down...Fred shoots banks on several of those other tables and the reason is...?  Because he can count on them...I have seen many many hours of Fred on video playing Tornado and don't believe I can remember him ever attempting a bank shot...the reason?  They aren't consistent enough to rely on…

Todd…Todd will crack off a bank every so often but I have read him enough to know he doesn’t shoot them more because he can’t count on them…Todd played a tournament middle of last year where he shot a ton of banks and was quite successful…the reason was that the balls were unusually slick and the ball make up changed the physics enough that Todd felt he could shoot them and keep them down…and he was right

[bbtuna]

Banks Part 2

you said, "Besides isn't it more of a challenge not to be able to hit every shot you try?"  Well, that is a loaded statement.  I want to be able to play on a table that allows everyone to be able to do everything that can physically be done consistently on a foosball table...this means banks, rollovers, pull shots, backpins, europins, push-kicks, etc

no one table is going to suit every player, but that doesn't mean we should strive to find a table that accommodates as many of the known styles as possible and one which can empirically be shown to be better in build quality and other measurable factors

What I for sure don’t want is a table (or a set of rules for that matter) which essentially eliminates a shot or pass series we know exists…like banks, push and pull kicks, back pins, pull shots, or rollovers

Basically, we are talking about changing the edge of the front foot of the man so that it is a straight edge and changing the tape on the edge of the table so the ball doesn’t jump when it hits it…do you feel this is going to have some significant impact on the quality of your play?  Would you be upset if you could hit banks even more consistently that you seem to be able to do today?  Would you be upset that other people could shoot them too?  Would it bother you to see a couple of top level players (at each level) in the US shooting pull-kicks, push-kicks, and backpins?

My Vision for a New Generation Table
I think a table should allow for high quality tic tac ball control and total pin ball control.  I believe that a table should allow for hard fast lane and wall passes and deep steep uphill brush passes and hard wall hugging brush downs.  I believe a table should allow a player to strike the edge of the ball and expect and accurate repeatable angle.  I believe a table should be fast without being slick that it should have a ton of control without stubbing pulls and backpins.   I believe a table should have rods made of the best light weight durable material possible and that they should sit in bearings that are as fast and durable as possible.  I believe that the table surface should be perfectly level and the distance between the men, rod, and table surfaces should be precise and consistent within defined tolerances.  I believe the material of the table surface should be slave to all the goals listed above.  I think the goal opening should be large enough to favor neither the shooter or the goalie but if it was to lean a little in either direction I think it should lean in favor of the shooter.  I think a competition table should weigh enough that men and women can play very aggressively without jarring the ball.  This means the table should be built with the best engineering to make the legs the most stable they can be and that the table should weigh 400 to 500 pounds.

No table has all these things today.  All tables have their own unique character.  No table will be perfect for all players.  I will continue to pursue a better made table until I can not do so any longer.  I can pursue your vision, hop on the bandwagon of someone else, or tout what I think will be a great table.

We will see…

[grandmaster]

Anybody build tables out there besides me?