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Detailed pics of the prototype table.

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 07:17:55 AM »
YES I agree a beginner will have better ball control at first using a longer foot and understand it's importance, But IMHO in the intermediate and advanced stages,  I think the *more narrow foot without the extra length like the 70's Tornado* is better, because when kicking the ball around in a passing series,  it's easier to get around the ball , using movements which include circling the ball, and keeping it moving faster(without having to slow your movement down to prevent/decrease the chance of throwing the ball off line by bumping it with the wider/longer clumbsy foot), changing direction, multi-times, before moving into the final step in passing the ball forward.

Plus it allows you to slice and dice the ball better using a more narrow sharper blade. I also find the running PushKick, running Bank Shot, and running goalie pass to forward, easier to do using the *more narrow and shorter 1970's foot*, mainly because you can get the smaller foot out of the way and run quicker with it, during the kick, slice kicking, running, reversing, hovering, circling manuevers, when shooting my TKO series. Now for squezzing, I think the wider foot allows you to execute those movement options better by having more on contact brushing squeeze range. I think the wider foot makes it easier to shoot a heel shot when starting from a standing position, but I think the run and gun heel shot (utilizing slice/sqeeze/kick back options) is easier to do with the smaller foot.

Anyways not to excessively agrue the point, just to elaborate a little on why I think the *1970's Tornado more narrow foot* is better, by allowing more things to be done. I equate it to using an oversized set of golf clubs for starting out , then at some point moving into the intermediate stages of your stroke, you are ready to get some finer cutting blades to peform at a higher level with more cutting ability. But once again I do shoot the back pin sqeeze (not as good as BPTUNA) and with the wider foot I believe you do have much more range utilizing that one man when staying in contact with the ball. However when I squeeze or slice it to the inside or outside man, from the middle man I prefer to have a more narrow foot/finer blades on those outside men.  I can also get around the ball quicker and more error free when shooting a pull or push shot, when moving into the stroke position as there is less Foot to move around the ball.

Theres no question, if the length of the foot is longer, it's easier for a beginner to start and maintain control throughout the shot. For me it gets a little clumbsy when moving the ball around the foot when getting into strike position. The width of the foot does not make it any easier for this lateral control, it just gives them more brushing/sqeezing range when applying the final downstroking brush movement, plus it reduces the margin of error in mistriking the ball, which I agree is good for the beginner.

I also believe the longer and wider Foot used today will last longer than the 1970's foot as it's bigger and less likely to break. This is good for maintenance cost concerns. But because of the reasons mentioned above, I think the 1970's *more narrow and shorter foot*(as opposed to the current clumbsy Tornado Foot) makes the game more exciting and allows you to take it to a higher level.  8)


BPTuna you going to Texas State ?



 


the wider man would definately be able to block more but on a foosball table, unlike in real life, a small foot does not mean better control, just the opposite

a beginner will do better with a wider foot and conditions which create better ball control meaning the hashing on the foot both sides, the texture of the ball, the surface of the table and the materials all these are made of
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 07:38:52 AM by Gstillwellar »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2008, 09:49:11 AM »
instead of getting into a bunch of detail for now, lets just take it from a full-time many-yeared backpin shooter that the curve on the foot is not a benifit to backpins

so, if we assumed that, is there any other benefit to the curve?  I think not but there are benefits to having a straight face

-banks and angles
-better striking surface - hitting a ball w/a flat surface instead of a rounded surface
-no beveled edge needed which means larger surface for ball control
-front and back on man can be the same for equal opportunity ball control front or back pin


Offline Will17

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 03:31:58 PM »
Tuna, Try flipping a tornado man to backwards on the table and shoot some back pin shots. One of the bar's here accidentally put the 2 man defense on backwards and I couldn't back pin with that man very well at all. I think if the center of the bar were higher off the table it would help... someone who can hit a rollover should try this and see if the ball lifts.. physics suggests it would...

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 07:51:28 PM »
Will,

i went in and explored what you said hitting the ball backward with open hand and it doesn't jump up any more than when I hit open hand the other direction

I also did a reverse rollover just to get an idea and I hit it closed handed with the ball in a bunch of positions...if you stub the ball it has a tendency to jump up but that is true in both directions with flat face and curved face

further, I placed the man straight up and down with a ball in front and again in back and then both together, one on either side of the ball, and the strike point in both cases is the same or so close u can't tell without serious equipment

and last, the strike point was at the center of the ball, or perhaps just above center

i don't know where you are getting this idea but I think it is spurious* and it takes the focus away from what is most important (IMHO)

get rid of the curve, it surves no purpose
get rid of the bevel, its only purpose is to try and fix the issues the curve creates

flat face
cross-hashed the entire front foot
make the edge the same as it is on the back foot (no bevel)



*Suprious
1: of illegitimate birth
2: outwardly similar or corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities
3:
a.  of falsified or erroneously attributed origin
b: of a deceitful nature or quality

Offline Will17

  • 264
Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2008, 01:57:05 AM »
tuna you could be right as I don't hit a rollover so I can't really speak to weather or not it would jump. I do know that it is possible to hit the ball below the center. watch an aerial and you see the back player hit the ball off the two bar so that it jumps, wouldn't be possible without the man being below the ball. I think with the man below the ball then definately with enough force you can get the ball to come off the table, i'm not sure how much though as I haven't done it. also I'm not a back pin shooter, but I find my back pin has more control than my front pin. having looked at the man i agree that it creates a flat surface when it touches the ball. maybe that isn't ideal though and having a little bit of an angle helps to rock the ball forward. I think if all backpin shooters agree that flat front men would help, and rollover shooters don't lift the ball then its a good idea. are there other tables (Garlando, techball, roberto) that people hit rollovers on with a flat man?  maybe a rollover shooter should wrap the heck out of a three bar on the opposite side and see if they can lift the ball backwards?
too bad the people at valley don't care as much as the people on this forum...

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 10:16:52 AM »
i have been very dissappointed in the way Valley has treated the table and players since I have been back in the game (last 4 /12 years) but these current proposed table changes are a strong, positive, deliberate move and I want to applaude them for that

they haven't made the decision in a vacumn, they involved top players in the design and testing, and they have given all players a chance to try out changes BEFORE implementing them which is so big and so smart on so many levels I have to give credit where it is due especially since I don't mind complaining when other decisions have been bad

I have hope that they will make a good decision on how to handle the strip since they got some feedback about that and it is headed in the right direction...I have confidence that they will make a good decision about the ball I think all that is needed is to probably split the difference between the current official ball and the softer one proposed (softness mixture) and they will probably get the best of both worlds

I have confidence with the handles, the scoring markers and game markers are good (I only hope they add one for time outs but this isn't the least bit critical just a good idea)

and the handling of the bummper gap seems to be right on so that only leaves the man


Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2008, 10:29:26 AM »
I have a serious urgent concern with this for a couple reasons

first and most important...I think I have been lead to believe they are willing to make this change because after 20 years it is time to change the mold on the man and as long as they are making that change why not update the man

totally great thinking but the issue is, once they have made this change, we are not likely to see another one for another 20 years

Ed can speak to the original reason to make the front foot curved but that has caused numerous issues and no one can tell me any positive impact it has on play

the only attempt is something about improving a backpin and I shoot the backpin and can tell you I have been complaining about since first coming back and then a strike point question which I think is not real

so, this leaves no reason to have the curve...it doesn't improve a pull, or a rollover, or any other part of the game that I know of...I am guessing it must have some positive impact but I just don't know what it is

I am not suggesting a change, nor would I, if this impacted some core quality of todays game, pull, rollover, brush, stick but so far I have no personal evidence or any other evidence that this would impact any of these key elements and it could be argued that a flat face would improve several of them

so, before any final decisions are made I am begging those making the decisions to slow down and please consider my points

Offline georgefoos

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2008, 10:31:35 AM »
One more thing they needed to take into consideration is make 2 -3 different handles, or exchangeable; My daughter, she is only 12 and have small hands but love the game of foosball but the handles is just way to big for her to do some of the moves; I know some of the female and players have small hands, they can play much better if the handles can fit them better. Tornado tournament table is the best to start so they don't develop bad habits. What do you think?

Can we get this suggestions into the Company designer's head. to promote the Foosball sports, it stating from the kids.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:56:03 PM by georgefoos »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2008, 10:50:25 AM »
CURVE -VS- FLAT FACE

most of the proposed changes on the man are being made because the curve on the current foot create a situation where the vast majority of people can not strike the ball with the edge of the man conistenly or predicably...why?  because it is curved...

so, to fix this, they are beveling the edge of the man...this bevel takes away from the surface space available on the face of the man and does not present a better solution than a straight line

so, why not just make the face straight and the edge straight...remove the curve all together instead of try and hide the curve with a beveled edge

again, there is no reason to keep the curve, well, none that I have heard that has substance and for sure none from those making the decision

I am not asking for you to adopt what I am saying blindly, I am asking that you test it as carefully as you have tested the current proposed changes and judge for yourselves and then if you choose to do this, please include as part of your beta test group, the 3 fulltime committed backpin shooters that I know (me, foosaround69, and The Pinanalyzer)...(I have heard of a couple players who were helping, Gummy, Todd, Terry but as a side note, I hope they have also included at least one full time pushkick and pullkick shooter as well as a Europin)

get rid of the curve, it surves no purpose
get rid of the bevel, its only purpose is to try and fix the issues the curve creates


flat face
cross-hash the entire front foot
make the edge the same as it is on the back foot (no bevel)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 04:31:05 PM by bbtuna »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2008, 11:03:35 AM »
I didn't say anything about the changable handles because that brought up such a firestorm on the other board and I didn't want to distract the topic but I totally loved the idea and hope it is still in the future and you make a great point...everything that can be done to make it easier for young people to play (without taking away from the serious competition table)

the idea already exists, it was almost implemented and here it is....it was tested on site as well "Viper" handle, which was much thinner than the current handle, apparently improved rollover quite a bit because the spin is so much faster the smaller the handle

most of the arguement against seemed to center on the impact to promoters and site tables...I think there are ways to deal with this but I think this was the major stumbling block unless there was something else happening behind the scenes that never became public

http://www.foosballpro.com/index.php

the Viper specifically
http://www.foosballpro.com/foosball_product_photo.php?cat=Quik-Change%20Foosball%20Handles&item=5187.987987988





Offline georgefoos

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Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2008, 11:56:40 PM »
Thanks you, I'll look into it.


Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2008, 12:48:08 AM »

I guess it'll be even more comical watching people try to play in bars, now that theres no serving hole. Will these tables come with rules etched in the side? Maybe a hyperlink?

"For information on starting your game, visit http://..."

Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2008, 08:01:24 AM »

It's my opinion that the edge should not have a bevel as this would cause the ball to release at whatever angle the bevel is. So as you move the ball away from the wall, the bevel would only allow you to hit a bank or clip within a small area on the playfield determined by the bevel angle.


I think you're perfectly right about this. The makers of the Fireball table in Germany (the Fireball is a fairly new table that was constructed in order to support the Tornado-playing-techniques as well as the typical German pinning style) had to remove the originally chamfered edges on the feet of their men as a response to the almost unanimous criticism from the players. Everyone praised the overall quality of the table, "if it wasn't for the chamfered edges on the feet, which made bank shots nearly impossible".

Now the table comes with sharp edges on the men, and the response to that was overwhelmingly positive.

Re: Detailed pics of the prototype table.
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 07:10:46 AM »
is this the F5 table?