Topic: Why not the palm push?

[Old Meister]

After driving  65 miles to play a tournament I was sorry to see only 2 people show and one was leaving. It reminded me of the end of the TS era. But the one guy who was left, Harold(and his wife),  suggested I come over and play on his home table for free. Harold, who has played for 33 years, quickly showed me why he plays goalie as it was hard to get much by him. Getting frustrated, I finally went nostalgic and used my TS standard shot, the palm push. On Tornados I have to hold back on this shot and try to make it a graduated start on the lateral pitch. If I do it right it's like all the opposing muscles are out of the way and the shot goes WHUMP! So I set it up and made the first one. Without saying a word he set the ball up on my line and then said,"do it again". After around 10 balls, hitting the different holes, he said, "I pride myself on blocking the push and you just made 9 out of 10 on me. THAT is your shot. Why don't you ever use it in tournaments?" I had to admit that it was my favorite back in TS days but was told that the push wasn't effective on Tornados so I didn't try it much. I'm going to now though, why not?

[bbtuna]

OM,
you have brought the Push shot up before and there have been several threads on the subject since I have been on the board...there is more to be said i am sure but below are a couple of the threads which I think cover a good deal of the discussion

Just below is a comment I made regarding "Why not a push?"

it is really not a bad shot...certainly not "puss" shot...I think it has the fastest start of all shots and is the most natural especially new players...the only real problem is squaring it off real long as consistently as a pull...if someone could figure out how to overcome the physical limitation and do 17-18 out of 20 1 finger longs all day long (assuming they develop the rest of the shot like all mature shots should be) then you could have a consistently threatening shot

as it is, it is a streaky shot because sometimes that long is on and in competition defenders rarely see it...but, for it to stay true for an entire tournament has proved ellusive

it is a great shot from goalie, especially if you have a decent push kick to go with it...look at what Terry Moore and Billy Pappas can do with a push from back especially in singles

There is an exception to almost everything in foosball but there are general principles or "rules" that can be observed.  One of them is that Push shots don't win majors...maybe once or twice in the entire history of American foosball...some have won at lower levels but that doesn't count because their is so much unpredictability and randomness in lower level play...but in the Pro Master ranks, I don't know of a push ever winning a major, EVER

now, this could be just because the push has a bad rap and a very small percentage of people shoot it and so the odds are against it and to some degree I think this is true.  However, in the end, the real reason is that it is very very hard to consistently square off the long.  People can talk about the pros and cons verses a pull or rollover but in the end, this is the issue with the push.

as I have said before, if someone can figure a way to square off a long push so that they can shoot 1/2 to 1 finger 18 out of 20 times every time with and without pressure then a person will have as good a shot (assuming the rest of it has developed too) as any in the world.

so far, no one who has made it to the elite level proving they can do this game in and game out all day every day...so, because 90% or higher of the players can't do the 18/20 one finger squared off long, they do something else

does this mean you shouldn't shoot it?  Absolutely NOT...it means, you aren't likely to get to the elite pro-master level winning a major with a push but, no offense, you aren't likely to get there shooting anything...I don't know you so this is no slight, I am just taking age, time, money into the picture and it would be a miracle if you made it into the top 30 let alone win a major (I am in the same boat lets be real)

BUT, you can be effective, win locals and regionals and give people fits and have a game to be proud of and if you want to shoot a push, it fits you, and it makes you feel confident and original, then you should shoot the darn thing and forget all the talk...Damn the torpedos and move ahead


Push
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=1140.30

Push verses Rollover
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=807.0

[MR.STEVE]

the palm roll is a great shot but for me the split is almost imposible to hit with a 7 style shot I have tryed every thing to get that cut back it just wont work thats my only complaint if I ever get it look out...If you can hit it God bless ya go for it Im sticking with a pull kick

[bbtuna]

it is super super hard to get the control and finesse on an open-handed shot like you do with a wrist shot...I have never seen one but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist

cut back on a push, consistent and reliable...now that is funny

[Old Meister]

I'm not going to brag and say I can hit all those spots but my friend said it was back cutting long on him, that is why he wanted to see it some more. Bbtuna, you're right. I seriously doubt I will ever take this game further than just being good for my area. If all I played was top pro's then I would probably get to that level but as the level of play here is pretty good with a few very good pro's, well, that is where I will try to make my mark. But I still want to do that road trip someday, dropping in on the different  haunts you guys play at. And then seeing if that shot works in the different areas.

[foozkillah]

I'm not going to brag and say I can hit all those spots but my friend said it was back cutting long on him, that is why he wanted to see it some more. Bbtuna, you're right. I seriously doubt I will ever take this game further than just being good for my area. If all I played was top pro's then I would probably get to that level but as the level of play here is pretty good with a few very good pro's, well, that is where I will try to make my mark. But I still want to do that road trip someday, dropping in on the different  haunts you guys play at. And then seeing if that shot works in the different areas.

We have a guy named Quincy, my fellow ISU Cyclone alum, who plays with our Netfoos group in South Florida.  He has a monstrous push palmroll, and is always dangerous when he gets enough attempts, popping scored balls out of a good nondamaged goal at about 70-85%.  Although I don't believe he had ever seen it done, he really does it the Euro way, (except the closed-fist European players) with an open palm facing upwards, touching the bottom of the handle at the get go.  Diamond or Handshake open palm towards the sky.  He has large hands.. and when he's on, he's just about as effective as our best pull and rollover shooters.

The difference is his takeoff is a snap roll and the natural "screw-type"  punch at the pitch or take-off ends with the hand trying to normally come back towards you as it unwinds, much as the standard pull palmroll returns "away" with little or no encouragement.  He squares and brushes back easily.  I actually tried it, and you can get the same "slap brush" feel you get when you hit a sweet rollover perfectly, as if you can direct the ball at whichever lane to the goal you wish.

But your wrist gets sore from all the corkscrewing, so I'll leave that to him (he has big big wrist) and the Euro's.

The pull palmroll?  He does it too, but likes a quicker slap starting by hitting the ball at the 3/4, square or to the long.  Like racing the corner, and probably because of the grip, using the corkscrew to add brute acceleration.  But no fun like getting the goalkeeper edgy with his push palmroll, and getting all these really loud straights that pop out so hard.

[Gstillwellar]

Push Shots---I think they are helping me to save my arm as they allow me to exercise/work muscles going the opposite direction of the pull.After a while the push shot starts to feel more natural, allowing you to put a lot of power on the shot while slice/brushing it back around the long corner, and has a lot of near side options to throw in, that allows you to open up a much shorter less raceable long. You really don't have to palm roll it as much as one thinks.. You just need to palm /finger roll it about 1/8-1/4 roll to your thumb (with your thumb at the lowest natural position in the back stroke of the shot execution requiring the least amount of back stroke to execute) in order to maintain control and then slam it in. A much less palm roll than is required to control a front pin, thus it can be controlled, to Deliver it when you want to and Put it where you want it.

Below Link to my Push Shot Series of 8 Options
http://www.arkansasfoosball.com/select_foosball_shots.htm

[bbtuna]

G,

thats nice but set up a dead man long and then pull the man 1/2 inch off the wall (about one baby finger) and do 10 in a row full speed without any camara editing and I will become a believer

the push has a great inside game, and super spray long, and can go 2 1/2 fingers off the wall from deadbar but you start going longer and the percentages start to go down exponentially

this is coming from a person who started with the push and was stubborn to a fault on giving it up...I had a monster push but a pro goalie showed me I gave up about an inch (easily and usually more) because I couldn't square off a long consistently

it has to do with the mechanics of your wrist, the movement/rotation available to your wrist on a push is a fraction of what you have with the pull - this can be overcome with the palm roll but then you loose some control and thus some consistency

[Old Meister]

I think what I really like about the shot is that, for it to work for me, I have to start the shot from a totally relaxed state. The trigger is as much a surprise to me as it is the goalie and that's totally true. All I can think about is a soft start. It's kind of Zen-like. I pick my hole before I set up the shot, not because of any show the goalie has made, and then I just relax waiting for what ever it is that triggers it. I visualize and get my mind right and Boom! Off it goes. Maybe the process is what works for me, not so much the shot type, but the push is what allows for it to be easy and I'll use it regardless as what ever shot makes a point, it still counts the same as any other shot that is made.

[Snake Shot Blows]

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[Old Meister]

Worlds? Not ready for prime time but might in the future. When I hear about guys like Rick Martin coming back and using his old TS shot effectively and I hear about how the newer tables are trying to bridge the gap in some ways to the styles before Tornado, well I can't help but try to regain my effective game too. From the palm push starting position I can do a perfectly squared off pushkick to the far man and it is fast should I need a perfect deadman. But I feel if you want to bait me it is a mistake and I can hit the tweener aor straight just fine. But Bbtuna is right in that it does spray somewhat some times. I don't know if it does always because I can't see it when it goes off on it's own.

[MR.STEVE]

I just played in st clare shores Detroit () A very good push shot won Am or Pro am Doubles and I cant remember his name but he has won some big singles events foosballboard has the resaults you might recanise his name there