Topic: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion

[Old Meister]

Wow Jonny! That's great!  I was hoping you would post how you did. I still work on that long but keep going back to your video on youtube to try to understand where you get all that speed so long. Dang! It's almost like a whip cracking, lol! I'll have to study Spree's technique to see what you are talking about. Tyler, thanks for the kind words. But I think Jonny would have done well regardless. I can see his head is in the right place anyway just by watching him. But being true to the path of a pro he seeks to strengthen every part of his game where ever he can as evident by his changing his grip to improve an already killer shot. We might have to rename the shot from Jet to SST. LOL!

[SpinningJoe]

Sorry, I don´t get the SST joke. I guess you´d have to be american

The thing I changed is that I bent my knees even more and am holding the handle more from underneath, kind of like Tony. Maybe if you play around with it for a while you´ll find a better position than you now have. Having my arm in a 90° angle between upper und lower arm is absolutely essential for me on tornado. Then I bring my upper arm to a position where it is nearly at a 90° angle from the rod. That´s why holding the handle from underneath is better for my shot, because otherwise my lower arm would be parallel to the rod which doesn´t support the rolling motion.

Thanks again for your advise.
Bye,
  Jonny

[Old Meister]

SST> Super Sonic Transport That's what we call the French jets. The position you describe is what someone called the "Crouching Tiger" stance. Just the stance alone suggests explosive play. I will have to try it out and see how it works on your shot. Interesting,,

[foozkillah]

Hey OM,
I bought the book you advised me to and another one I find really interesting. I think I´m already improving. I took second in OD this weekend at a P4P tournament with 250 players and finished 5th in OD at the Tecball WCS. That´s why I´ll put a lot more focus on the mental side from now on, there is so much space for improvement. I liked the mental thread on this forum a lot. Lots of good stuff.

I'm happy that the book suggested by OM helped you with your game think and attitude and all, but did you happen to find out what other book the one who won the P4P tournament was reading - that must have been even better!     And what books and articles were those who took 1st through 4th in the TecBall tourney reading?  I'd like that in my library, too!   

By the way. I figured out that holding the handle more like tony does improved my shot by 100% in consistency and accuracy but also in speed. Maybe it helps you as well if you´re still working on the long snake.

Now that book, whenever Tony or his shadow-writer comes up with it, I'll buy in hardback!    I'd hope that Tony's book will have very little in terms of self-awareness and self-realization and your place in this universe, but lots and lots more about how to hold the bloody handle correctly, and how to be consistent.  Y'know, hopefully in the same vein as the centuries old "Bushido, the death of Tupac, and the way of the Samurai" or something, some philosophy and a ton of "How to F*cking Do Dis and Do Dat, and Rip that git of a D", instead of "Are you really here, right now, and should you REALLY be doing that?"     Word.   

[Old Meister]

Huh?

[foozkillah]

Huh? 

I like the mental attitude and philosophy books as much as anybody, OM, but I was just commenting on how Joe (congrats on your upcoming nuptials!) said simple techniques like Tony's grip could also help tremendously (100%?) with one's game.  Now if Tony ever broke down or got a shadow writer, ala Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan, or even got a shadow video producer, to show his techniques HIS WAY, I'm saying I would crave those even more.

I like to read nuts n bolts type manuals and books.... perhaps its the engineer or "How'd YA Do It?" in me.  For example I'd like to know the theory and philosophy in a backpin offense, for example, and EVEN MORE SO, how it is applied, in steps and in alternatives depending on outcomes and the D, of course.  As well as drills to ensure proper execution in a game situation.  WORDZ..

[Old Meister]

That's fair, this thread is about theory and mechanics of being effective as a goalie, not the mental game so I get where you're coming from. If you are asking how I approach using the back pin from in back and why I like it and what I try to do with it, I'd be more than happy to tell you. For me the back pin push close handed is my most natural shot. I shoot it from a smooth rocking that I change position of by tap walking it around. I play on the switch area and can go short or long on the push, can do a pin pull back angle or straight (and wall)to clear. I can shoot a push kick from it which I can shoot short or middle and if I go long I might do a hook pull to finish it off as when  it gets to the far side switch zone often times I will catch the defense in the switch. I can do the reverse from the pull side and might shift the thumb up and go palm for some power on a pin pull or pull kick. I used to go for banks from that point, either direction, but it's a good way to get picked so I stay away from it for the most part. Mostly I just work the push from the rocking position and keep the man close so as to not have a tell and then mix it up with the push kick. These are where I mostly score from as I can hit both sides of the goal and can shoot from different points so as to keep the D guessing.  So what do you use in back?

[Tyler Foos]

...yeah, I remember when I had my first beer.....Steve Martin

                                    :)Tyler

[foozkillah]

;
So what do you use in back?

Very interesting, because I used to do a very similar set from the far or "pull" side in nets.  Even nowadays, it seems so useful because a lot of forwards and teams in zone D seem to have a harder time timing and anticipating the actual release of the ball, a major advantage of the backpin.  It just so naturally obscures the actual ball position, whether it's ready to be stroked from the middle or central back of the ball, or on either edge, and also where's actually being pinned, and if it's being pinned at any moment.  A hanging or no-pressure pin close to the ball just hides the release or actual shot.   I've played over the years with several "old school" defenders, some of whom actually have a pretty slow but extremely smooth backpin far series that always seems to clear anyway.  And score...

Of course, having been based the last two decades in South Florida, going more often to Texas, Louisiana and Georgia events than other super-regionals, plus the influence of the Tampa-Clearwater-St Pete (Horton-Starczewski-BobbyDiaz-Yore-Yore-Yore-Cody-Sine-Pruitt-Ino-Green) always made me wish to get a ripping short, middle, deadbar long pull from back, either sprayed or square... with transposition into a very long pull kick.

I have those now, and I'm working on a strong push/push kick series from back, too.  But your discussions on the backpin also reminded me of several superior features with goal-side backpin series'.  The trick is I like to break down any series into the basic features and steps, making it easier to show a noob or rookie.  A backpin series is the closest thing to jazz improvisation, so the best way I could think of teaching it is showing the basic features, like certain pins, how to be sure one's in firing position, how to read the dots, etc... and then have the noob practice this all over.  Not as clearcut and simple as a set or even moving pull or push series, or a tic-tac series, for that matter.

As you know, duhh, I'm a strong strong proponent of the Center Zone D, with the forward absolutely responsible for all away-from-goal passes and banks, and any goalplayer that thinks he/she should share the obsolete short-long goal coverage with the forward (forcing the forward into giving up on stopping banks, brushdown passes and overall off-goal clears .. usually to a very good snaking forward) is basically a moron or more like an idiot in my opinion.  But that's just me.   I've been looking for a killshot or clear against those forwards who wish to be superheroes and shut down the center, always going for the on-goal stuff, relying on their fantasy Flash ability to trap the off-goal passes and clears that his/her goalkeeper has ABSOLUTELY no hope of doing ANYTHING against.  I've been experimenting, and these forwards (many many idiot wannabe superhero forwards in foosland) are suckers for a backpin series that can brush on or off-goal or clear/pass without any tells on the release.   Something else to work on, so I can automatically switch into it the moment I realize the forward thinks he's Spidey. 

[Old Meister]

'Killa, one of the shots I seem to have good success with from back with a back pin is to "toss" the ball to the other man, either push or pull and hit it cross center. This toss is not a reversal push or pull-kick but a stay on top of the ball and toss which prevents the tell of the release. It makes for a nice option, the reversal, the straight pin and the pin toss kick as well as the reversal kick all of which can be done in the push or pull.

[foozkillah]

'Killa, one of the shots I seem to have good success with from back with a back pin is to "toss" the ball to the other man, either push or pull and hit it cross center. This toss is not a reversal push or pull-kick but a stay on top of the ball and toss which prevents the tell of the release. It makes for a nice option, the reversal, the straight pin and the pin toss kick as well as the reversal kick all of which can be done in the push or pull. 

Thanks OM,
That actually sounds "painful", but it also sounds like it should work pretty well!  I'm gonna try that after practicing it a several dozen times.   It needs good "feel" of the ball, so I'm going to try it by starting with some ball control passing back and forth FIRST, for each shot, to increase the reliability and the touch to shoot it smoothly and immediately after the toss from the other 2bar figure.  And being able to shoot it smoothly from either figure would even be better.

[Old Meister]

When I shoot it I'm rocking the ball at the switch point, which is where I might shoot my reversal push with a spray or squared to close side of goal(reverse it for the pull). But if I shoot the "toss-kick" it's done hard and fast and is struck on the away side of center and cuts back to the close side of goal. When both the reversal and the toss-kick are done from the same motion it makes problems for both the goalie and the forward.I  I really shoot it hard as that is what makes it work. I don't know how this falls into your central zone D scheme but I would guess that it would find some chinks as the ball moves away but angles back, or not,,,

[foozkillah]

OM,

No, I believe that your "toss-kick" shot series, especially if done consistently and smoothly and deadly quick from both sides, would be a good zonebreaker.  Any lapse on the Central Zone D (or any zone D for that) matter, where the defenders fail to switch defense lanes correctly (either of the two center lanes) and actually open a "cone" to an undefended corner could be quite effective.  In fact, its nature of "jumping" across the zone is almost exactly what a zonebreaking shot has to have, like a fake in a basketball game to draw more defenders and doing a cross-court pass to the open man on the other side.  That or a good off-goal passing series.

Central Zone entails simple logical division of labor between the forward and goal, so they still have to have the discipline to maintain it.  I believe Central Zone D is the easiest to demonstrate, show its philosophy, and to maintain.  I've tested it time and time and again with noobs and rookies.  It puts a simpler load on the goalkeeper, in fact stupid simpler, which is necessary for a beginner/rookie team with the weaker and least experienced player most logically in nets.  And the opposing "toss-kick" backpin goalkeeper would still have to have a well practiced takeoff and release to jump the other side of the zone, just as any good under-rod tic tac (back and forth) zonebreaking goalkeeper shooters have.

But by then it's become a game .... again ..... with both sides trying to out-execute each other, with survival chances more even.  Designed to shut down just about all those "cheap" quicksets, including banks and fakey off-goal passes that more experienced players will throw at 'em.  It will no longer be the usual tsunami that runs over the weaker team.  And that's a lot to have for a young and/or very inexperienced team.  What more can one ask for?  Pros and ProMaster teams can decide to all stay on the near or far wall, with the players' feet up in the air, either for a fake or "fuh style points", because they HAVE the skills and experience, anyway, to close off the center shooting lanes and the passing or banking lanes on the sides and make it work.  For noobs, it's dance training with numbers on the floor, of course, and the motto is now:

Keep It Centered, Kid, And Stupidly Simple, Stoopid !  Or K.I.C.K.A.S.S.S., for short.