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Foosball Tournament Structure Needs an Overhaul

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Offline bbtuna

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Foosball Tournament Structure Needs an Overhaul
« on: September 03, 2008, 12:46:11 PM »
We all know tournaments need more money and the long-term health of tournament table soccer is dependent on the infusion of sponsorship money but this post is not intended to address how to bring more money to tournaments.  Tournaments have issues part from money that can be address with or without “new” money.

Bottom line is…
1. Tournaments have way too many conflicts*
2. There is not a clear distinction between Amateur and Professional
3. Payouts are not deep enough.

There are a ton of associated issues which won’t be addressed initially.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 07:53:51 PM by bbtuna »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 12:50:37 PM »
CONFLICT*
Conflicts are caused because there are so many events that each player is entered into (because of the “package” deal) conflict, a lot of conflict, is inevitable...Conflict causes bracket bog down and lengthens tournaments

Problem:   How can you provide tons of foosball at a tournament and yet remove conflict?


AMATEUR VERSES PROFESSIONAL
In tournament table soccer the only difference between the Amateur and Professional is how much their entry fee is, how many events they can enter, and how much money is paid out.  There are tournaments now where the only difference in payouts is that the ProMaster receives a slightly higher payout whiles the others are all the same.

Problem:   How can Amateur’s be treated as amateur’s and at the same time recognize and address the fact that Amateurs fund a high percentage of each tournament purse? (looking for an answer apart from Sponsorship)


PAYOUTS
Current illustration which addresses AM vs Pro as well.  $20,000 tournament coming up where 4th place in Open (ProMaster doubles) pays out $200 and Amateur, Expert, and Pro each payout $100 and Rookie pays out $60.  Payouts aren’t deep enough.

Problem:   How can you pay deeper with the same money and still satisfy all player divisions?

What are your proposed solutions?  You can guess I have a few…


*Conflict is defined as player or team is busy with match “A” when called to be in another match, match “B” but because player(s) from A can’t play in B, match B is not played and therefore bracket play in bracket is delayed until B match can be played.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 01:23:25 PM »
What about recalls they slow the whole event down and it is always the same players.  There should be a limit like after 3 recalls to different matches the players forfeits all events and cash.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 01:27:26 PM »
As for payouts I think what ever payout bring out more players.  If you paid out all the cash to Open events and got 50 players or you paid out money to all event and got 100 players I say paid out to all event and grow the sport so we can get sponsorship.

Offline MR.STEVE

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 04:51:49 PM »
Amatures on down trophys only the is not any money there anyway Jr.s amatures pro and master we dont need all that beginers crap, there all ametures anyway and who can spend 4 days at a tourny.The old ways are still the best ways..

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 05:14:57 PM »
I have been trying to get a chart in here to illustrate my point but that isn't working so,

I will speak to the numbers and see if it gets the point accorss

at an actual upcoming $20,000 purse tournament the TOTAL payout for Rookie, both singles and doubles, is...are you ready?  $440! 

$440 is payout for ALL places...singles is ZERO...doubles is $100 per person for FIRST PLACE... package price and reqistration for a rookie is $195 per person so 2.66 Rookies enterance fees can pay for the entire payout for Rookie Singles and Doubles...this is 2.2% of the purse
Rookie
Package cost  $195
 Doubles payout per person
1st   $100
2nd   $50
3rd    $40
4th    $30
Singles payout first 4 places
 $-   
 $-   
 $-   
 $-   
Total payout for doubles (both players, and singles)
 $440
2.20%


« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:09:23 AM by bbtuna »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 05:29:23 PM »
The current tournament structure has Beginner, Rookie, Amateur, Expert, Pro, and ProMaster

Rookie and Amateur are the for sure NON-Professionals and Expert is sort of what Semi-Pro used to be so they are sort of between Non-Pro and Pro but for the sake of illustration I am going to make my own decision on which is which

NON-Pro is Beginner, Rookie, and Amateur
Professional is Expert, Pro, and ProMaster

Non-Pro
Let me address this one first.  We will drop Beginner because they don't pay to play and they get no purse payouts.
So No-Pro is Rook and Am...so, for this tournament, the total payout for Rookie and Amateur, Singles and Doubles (I am counting the "main" events of foosball) is $1525...as illustrated on the post above, $440 of that is Rookie...here is how the remaining $1085 breaks down for the AM  - by the way, 5.6 enterance fees from AMs cover this payout ... this is a total of 7.63% of the purse

You can't win Dbls or Singles in Rook or Am and pay even for your enterance fee for the tournament let alone any other costs associated with going to a tournament (food/logding/travel)

Amatuer
Package w/Registration $195
Doubles per person payout
1st   $150
2nd   $100
3rd   $75
4th   $50
Singles payout
 1st   $125
 2nd   $100
 3rd    $60
 4th    $50
Total payout $1,085
Amateur payout as a % of total purse 5.43%
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:10:25 AM by bbtuna »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 05:47:19 PM »
a recent local 11 team DYP had a payout of $320 and...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:15:26 AM by bbtuna »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 12:16:09 AM »
this $20,000 tournament has a total payout for Rookie Singles AND Doubles of $420

does anyone see a problem with this?

This is not a criticism of Mary and IFP, this is just an observed fact which serves as part of reasoning to consider a different approach.

Offline Will17

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 05:09:46 PM »
I agree that tournaments do need an overhaul. I don’t mind having different ranks of players, but have them all compete in the same tournament… If I was running a tournament I would do both singles and doubles, and start by having a round robin, teams in groups of 4 seeded into pools like the champions league or euro draw in soccer. Lets say there is 80 teams, the top 20 ranked teams are group 1, next 20 are group 2, etc. No two teams from the same group can be drawn with eachother. If it doesn’t work out that exactly enough teams join for groups of 4 then have some groups of 3 to compensate. Each of the 4 teams that are drawn into the same round robin group plays each other and the top 2 move into winners bracket, the bottom 2 into losers bracket. In the groups of 3, the bottom team moves to losers, top to winners and 2nd plays another groups 2nd place team – winner goes to the winners bracket loser goes to the losers bracket.  If you end up in the losers bracket it already means you have lost twice and can not move into the winners bracket at any point, but it at least seperates the beginners/rookies into another pool. The winners bracket can still be double elimination. From this point on run it just like a normal tournament. Because there would not be 50 events going it would simplify a lot of things, players couldn’t be competing in 10 events at a time, so calling players would be easy. Round robin format would mean you could schedule actual start times for games – and stick by a schedule for the whole tourney. Also people would still get to play a few games no matter what, even the losingest team at the event would play 3 round robin games and then one to get eliminated from losers side. If that isn’t enough we could even make the losers bracked double elimination, with a losers and winners side of the losers bracket.  The main thing this accomplishes is that all the money is in the same pool. Now you could still keep rookies happy by giving tables/trophy/jackets to the TOP ranked rookies, top semi-pro’s etc. The payouts could go VERY DEEP. If registration was 100 bucks each it would mean 1st pays 5000, second pays 2000, third 1000, 4-8 pays 500, 9-16 pays 300, 18-32 pays 240.  I think this format would work better, as a rookie, I would rather go to a tournament which I can play against the best(getting drawn in a group with a pro/master team, semipro team, and another rookie team) and would still win some games, I would get to play 1 or 2 other beginner/rookies in the losers bracket. It would be good because the teams could all end up ranked and you would know if you were in the best groups of rookies to play the tourney. I think this would keep everyone happy and would be the best to get new players out to tournaments. If you NEED to have an ULTRABEGINNER group then have that too, but make it for people that are hackers and with a 10 dollar entry fee from which none gets paid back to them.


Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 06:02:47 PM »
will,
thanks for the thoughtful reply, I didn't have the round robin in mind but I can see the value of that...it is a way of giving people play time

my idea is that no money goes to Non-Pros...they get trophies, jackets, tables, future packages, sponsor stuff if that comes a long

i mean, with the payout the way they are right now, they won't be missing anything

if you are No-Pro, you can pick any division higher than yours to compete in but you can only compete in one division...the player has to declare a division...this eliminates conflict

Play Singles down to the final 4-8 before starting Dbls

Women can play in men's division but they then forfeit playing in Women's League...women only have two Leagues and no division/levels within the league they are either Pro or No-Pro

Mixed is played after everything else if there is time...Pro and No Pro, No Pro doesn't pay and Pro pays very little

all other speciality events like 3500, FSO, GW, 2Ball, etc, are part of "package price" anyone can play, everyone is elligible if they are not still playing in the main events

---

3 levels of No-Pro (not including beignner)
each plays there division and 1-6 recognized ... top 4-16 teams (and Beginner winner) earn the right to play in 32-64 team play off

Pro Level 1 and 2 do the same play through to winners and then top teams, PM's (Pro Level 3) are the only ones who don't play to get in
teams are seeded in order by how each team placed in their divisions or points in the case of Masters (except that a team qualifiying in a lower division can never be seeded higher than the division(s) above them)
Masters
Pro Lev 2
Pro Lev 1
Amateur Lev 3
Amateur Lev 2
Amateur Lev 1


Offline Will17

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 06:45:15 PM »
Both of those idea's achieve the same result... which is good. I think the key here is that guys that aren't pro's don't need to make money. In the round robin 1 pool suggestion it makes sure the best players end up at the top, so it is unlikely that anyone that doesn't belong as a pro would win - or place. in yours it just leaves them the option of playing a lower division.. both work, i would prefer either scenario to the one in place now - although obviously prefer my own idea if for no other reason than that i would like to play good players in the round robin before ending up in the easy division.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs and Overhaul
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 07:36:15 PM »
i hear you on the playing good players thing and I have heard that over the last few years but I think it is over-rated...

* I don't think you really learn much like the first tourny I played in after 25 years off and my first match called for open doubles was against Tommy A...now, all I learned was that we were light-years apart and it was over in a flash
* You can play these players in the speciality events, pro-am, and open dyps
* the best players (top 4-8 ish) would move to The Round of 32/64 and they would be playing top players
* the lower level players need to earn the right either by winning their division or by moving up in their personal rankings
* Each player can choose to play up and so play better players but they can only play in one division so they choose which is more important to them

I wanted to add...
* 3/5 win 3/5 loosers in Amateur
* 3/5 3/5 in The Round of 32/64 up to Top 8 then
* 4/7

Offline Will17

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs an Overhaul
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 06:48:59 PM »
Tuna you should organize a tournament - just book a hotel and get warrior/tornado on board.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Foosball Tournament Structure Needs an Overhaul
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 10:30:38 PM »
Will thanks, but there is sooo much more to running a good tournament than approach and format, there is infrastructure and a ton of man hours, not to mention a very large investment

I am sure Mary would be willing to sell her infrasturcture services under the right conditions but it is a big dollar commitment and the tournament would have to compete against an already very full schedule

my great hope is that Mary will experiment with some of these approaches in a few tournaments giving it a chance, making sure the bugs are worked out and people get the full benefit and then see if the benefit is what I think it would be

but this is a big risk for Mary since she has grown her business up to this point doing things her way and trying to sell the upside to her on an unproven format is a very formidable task

I throw my ideas out hoping to be heard...maybe someday, I will come into a situation where i could do it but that is fairly unlikely so I will just throw my stones over the wall and hope someone picks one up one of these days