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How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it

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How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« on: November 14, 2007, 08:57:50 PM »
There are one or two used Tornado coin-op grey marble tables available for about $800 each in the Denver, Colorado area.  I'm thinking about trying to buy one of them.  I'm pretty good at checking out used cars for problems, but not used Tornado tables.  What kind of problems typically develop with Tornado coin-op tables over time?

The tables have been in a pool hall and subjected to regular weekly small tournament play.  I don't know how old they are. 
I've played on one of them but have not been able to look on the inside of it yet.  The rods seem smooth and straight, the ball rolls true and there are no chips/cracks around the goal.  I can probably get serial numbers.
 
Someone familiar with the tables stated "that the men have been recently upgraded", apparently "with slightly larger feet".  Could someone provide some feedback on when the feet on Tornado foosball men were last changed? 

Any advice would be appreciated.  I'm not in any rush,  but I eventually want to get a nice table for practicing at home.

Offline grandmaster

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 10:29:26 AM »
Do they mean ALL the men were changed recently or the table was equipped from the factory with new style men? Doesn't matter much one way or the other, $800 is a fair price. Make sure you play on it first BEFORE you pay for it.

Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 05:38:11 PM »
hopefully it's not the nylon men ......... they sucked!!!!!!!

Offline wildcard

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 03:27:40 AM »
Surface may be different--it's changed since the first generation, I'm unsure or any control issues with the balls they use now if it is an original 30th Anny grey marble ( I think those came out in 2003 or so) since I haven't played on an original in a couple of years. A Coin Op should be worth the money though for vending alone.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2007, 11:05:17 AM »
grey marble, even the first edition, for $800 is a decent price especially since you aren't looking at any shipping

just so you know what you are getting, ask if it is the Anniversary edition...it plays a little differently because the surface is different from the last grey marble edition...it is slightly darker and I have heard some pro-masters say it was a little slicker (not slippery, just slicker than other surfaces they have played on specifically comparing it to the grey marble that came after the Anniversary edition

these early grey marbles didn't all have the heat-treated rod and in my experience/opinion, that is the single best table change Tornado has made going back to the brown marble

you don't have to have heat-treated rods at every position but you will want them on the side you practice on for the 2, 5, and 3...these are about $32.5 each (plus shipping) so you will want to take that into account and perhaps dicker with the purchase price a little if you have to replace those rods

if they have "all" new men that is quite an expense on their part but I doubt they mean literally they are all brand new...

on the men...Tornado has gone through quite a few iterations on the men when they tried to move to Nylon...I won't go into all the details but you will want to ask them if they are the Nylon men...you don't want the Nylon men, each version had issues...hopefully the people you are dealing with will know and will be straight up with you...if they don't know, come back and we can talk about how to tell

just look at the men and make sure there is no dip on the front face of the foot of the man...this can not be corrected so if you have a bunch of men like that it is $5 (+ or _) a man to replace them

next on the men, you want to make sure that the side of the foot does not have a ridge where the mold came together...this isn't a show stopper because they can be sanded flat but you want to know what you are getting into

on the bummers and bearings
bummers first...if the bummpers are slightly too big, the ball will fit between the man and the wall easily...put the man on the wall and see if you can roll the ball between the man and the wall easily...if so, the bummpers are too big...this will rarely be an issued any spot other than the 5 rod and 3 rod (passing, catching, defending) hard tight wall passes...so you could have up to eight of those to replace at $2 a piece...again, not a show stopper but good to know

bearings...a lot can be said about bearings but if they are tight on the table (can loosen them by hand without a supreme effort) and there are no visable signs of tracking and the rod isn't loosy goosy (moving around a lot) then you are okay...the rod will have a little play normally, you just don't want tons of play...bearings come in 2 sections (the two halves inside and the one piece outside)...each is $3 so if you had to replace both sections it would be $6 per position...fortunately, you aren't likely to need to replace many of these and if there is an issue, you will likely be able to get away with just replacing one section

there are other things you could check but if you know cosmetically they are okay like you said and then you check the above and decide how much if any time and/or money that will cost you, you can make a offer on the table accordingly

LAST...play on both tables on both sides and see which one you like...if you know regulars who play on them frequently, ask them which they think is the best

if you have the money, it is a reasonable deal (not a steal, but a very reasonable deal) and you will be able to use it for 3 or 4 years and sell it for the same amount if you take good care of it

to me, the biggest thing is the table surface...this can be changed but it is expensive ($150)...if it is the darker green Anniversary edition top, you will need to decide if you want to live with that for at home play/practice if you decide to attend local, regional, or major tournaments because you will need to adjust from your table to those...I personally would prefer not to but it won't impact how good you can get and it may even be an advantage because you will go from home table less control to tournament table more control and that is better than the other way around

also, almost all tables are a little different from one edition to the other so it is very hard and expensive to keep up with the latest "tour" table

you can get all the parts you need at the best price possible at tornadofoosball.com owned by long time promotor and route owner Charles MacIntosh

http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/index.html

happy hunting
bbt
Charles

Offline bbtuna

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WILDCARD: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 11:07:54 AM »
Wildcard, by the way, good to see you over here, tell your buds to stop by comment and post

bbtuna

Offline grandmaster

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2007, 11:48:43 AM »
Very nice post, Charles. By the way, when were heat treated Tornado rods first produced?

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2007, 06:45:34 PM »
grandmaster...thanks

I had the mahagony which was the table before the Anniversary table and it didn't have the heat treated rods...I replaced my 2, 5, and 3 and it made a big difference

the heat treated rods came out officially with the Anniversary grey marble but weren't consistently on every one...some had none, some had some, and some had all

the rest of the grey marbles after the Anniversary edition all had heat-treated...I am not sure about this latest metal wraped table I have heard conflicting reports...

I know Tornado dumped the person they were getting them from and went for a less expensive imported model...I have heard they play just as well but I have heard also that T was considering not using them because they do cost a little more...however, if you are a route owner, you want those rods because they are hard to ruin/bend and therefore need less maintenance onsite...if you are a serious player you want them because their quality of play is better all around

they are smoother, much stronger (so harder to bend), and they stay slick longer with less silicone

if I remember right, you can tell the original heat treated rods because on the end of the rod (the handle end) there is a small divet drilled into the side of the rod about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the end if my memory serves me

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2007, 06:53:52 PM »
oh yea, inside, there is a counter on coin-ops which shows how many times a rack of balls was dropped...this will give you an idea of how much use they have gotten...

I don't know if one number is too high, obviously the lower the number the better

this won't tell you how much time the table spent on free play but it is still a good indicator

with that said, a coin op with proper maintenance is good for at least 20 years at your home...like I have said before, I play Friday nights on a Brown marble which has been in this bar its entire life around 15 years...that is remarkable and with basic maintenance it could last another 15 years with the exception of the edges of the goals are starting to get chipped since I started playing there around 2 years ago (I hit the edge very often so I think it is my fault mainly...it is happening on my table at home and happened with the TS tables I owned when I first played)...this can be fixed but it isn't easy and it is beyond my limited wood-working skills

Offline grandmaster

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2007, 10:43:45 AM »
Ok, Charles. Thanks for the info. I suppose Tornado gradually used up whatever stock they had thus mixing different type rods during the change over. Personally I complained frome the start about the fact that a Tornado two row would bend on the first pull shot from goalie. Heat treated rods were standard equipment on the DM German tables in the 70's. Very stiff and straight and fun to shoot with and good to the last shot or two when they would finally break at the bolt hole. It was funny to see the player shoot a pull shot and end up holding hallf a bar in his hand!

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2007, 11:06:06 AM »
yes, more could be done to improve the quality of the rods and bearings but that isn't going to happen with Valley (not unless some miracle change takes place)

the heat treated rods are not stiff, they bend real well but they go back to original position well...I have never heard of one of these rods breaking but I assume if you put enough of them into play it is bound to happen

I saw broken rods on TS and Dynamo like you are talking about in the old days but nothing in the last 3 years since I took the game back up again...

Offline grandmaster

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 12:08:16 PM »
I guess I've seen a TS rod or two broken from vandalism, but not from regular play. There just wasn't enough Dynamo tables this far north to form an opinion. We broke a lot of Deuscher Miester two rows and quite a few three rows just from use. I am glad to hear you are back. Foosers are so rare we need every one of them. I agree Tornado has some idiosyncrasies regarding the bearings. I do remember watching Todd straighten his two row after a pull shot and thinking "I'm not the only one who bends 'em". Merlin told me to "play light on the rods" when shooting on Tornado. When asked what this meant, he said that you need to pull UP on the end of the pull shot instead of pushing down on the rod as on TS. This does help somewhat but it just isn't the same power, in my opinion. I switched to the push on Tornado from goalie and the rod does stay a little staighter due to having less leverage as the rod travels away from you. In the end each table has it's own characteristics and they all have something to contribute to the fun.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 12:59:24 PM »
I hate to be contary but that pull up thing on the pull shot is not right...if you see the best pull shot shooters on tormado two rod, Billy Pappas, Terry Mac, and especially Tommy Adkinson.  Some would argue Tommy has the best pull shot on the 2 bar ever...I don't know about that but it is special and if you watch him shoot you will see the rod bends down...A TON...it is striking to see how much the rod bends especially if you watch it in slow motion...amazing

same is true on the 3 bar

you are right about different table characteristics...there is a lot of variety out there

Offline grandmaster

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 03:45:43 PM »
No, Charles you're not contrary. I still bend the bar and I know a lot of players that do. Murf just said if you don't want to straighten the bar every time you could "play light". I thought it was better to have a straight bar to shoot my stroke with. As I write this there are many, many table manufacturers making a LOT of tables of all kinds. It's all good. Any table any time, your place or mine and it's GAME ON!

Offline bbtuna

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Re: How to evaluate a used Tornado coin-op before purchasing it
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2007, 04:37:37 PM »
GM

you are right, play for fun as often as possible

by the way, you can yank the heck out of the heat treated rod and it will spring right back...nobody, and I mean nobody, bends a rod like Tommy A does when shooting the long pull and it goes right back

they say when the new rods came out that Tommy sat on one fully extended and it went right back...now I don't know if this is myth and wouldn't want him trying it on my table but it tells ya either way, they are really tough

I would like to see a table become competitive with Tornado in the US...they have been a real curmmy company these past few years and I don't see things getting better

plus, ideally, I would like a table as well built as the older Tornados that you can shoot everything on especially banks and angles

i have some reason to hope this may happen in the next couple of years