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Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin

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Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« on: November 18, 2007, 06:12:50 PM »
I have been shooting the pull ever since I've been playing (got my first table 10 months ago, and got a Tornado 2 months ago). I have gotten pretty good with it, but I'm a little bit bored shooting it because the effectiveness has  sort of plateaued.

Back-pin:
How do you shoot the back pin? I'm not totally sure what is done in the shot. Is the shot made by pinning the ball in back and passing it between the men and firing it away? If so, how do you avoid stubbing the man/ball into the table?

Front-pin:
This shot is damn hard to shoot, if you ask me. I've toyed around with the open hand grip and find it too hard to control. The closed hand is more natural feeling, but I can't generate much speed on the pitch or the shot. It's also way hard to shoot it push.

I know most of you are thinking shoot the pull or learn the snake because they are higher percentage shots, and easier to do, but I am not playing in tournaments yet, and I enjoy impressing people with a creative shot or something different from the boring snake that everyone shoots.

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2007, 09:43:11 PM »
Do me a favor. I'm not up on playing on Tornados but from what I've seen most of the shots are done from the front pin. So this is what I'd like to know, and you being open to experimenting, maybe you could explore this for me. Pin the ball in front  away from center and rock it with light pressure
. Then as you come towards your side increase the pressure so that the ball squirts to the far man and as the man is already back you then hit forward so that the shot is done in a babang fashion. I could do this on Tournament Soccer tables but haven't got the chance on Tornados. This shot has to be the fastest side movement without telegraphing that there is but the thing is is control and I don't know Tornado tables to know if this shot is possible. I know that the distance in front of the rod that the ball was was critical in whether this shot works but if it does, this shot will make any goalie have fits. Add this to a snake and you are a monster. The fact that your movement is the opposite direction from where the shot happens is really a problem. But like I said, it might not work on a Tornado, go figure,,,

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 12:06:30 AM »
That sounds pretty sick, O M. Ill let you know if i can get it to work on a harvard.

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 03:52:55 AM »
ok, O M , i have a good report.it can be done on a harvard. the shot is sweet. i noticed if i get better, i can do a "change-up" which is slower, but with alot more spin. It just is so slow and easy to hit.Nice shot, and thank you, please tell me aboot more shots.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 10:01:46 AM »
I shoot the back pin as my primary shot...fairly recently someone contacted me having read an old post from the foosballboard; a post where I brought up shooting a backpin...the person was asking about the backpin in particular they were having trouble stubbing the ball and we had a series of email exchanges about how to shoot the back pin...

before I post all that I have written, I thought I would give you the outline so far and see if you have interest in knowing more...I will post this under a seperate thread called Back Pin Rules

anyone with interest at exploring, learning, or arguing about the best (and yet hardest) shot in foosball can let me know and I will be open to follow this as far as anyone wants

Offline grandmaster

  • 221
  • Any table, any time.
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 10:24:26 AM »
I agree. the back pin RULES. I shoot all shots on all tables but when it comes to crunch time... well, here comes a back pin for sure. Some tables are good for certain shots. Tornado is good for back pin reverses. I hate to give away the farm, but you better watch the OTHER way when I've got the ball in a back pin. Tornado is also good for back pin reverse push and pull kicks. And I hate to say it, Tornado goalie bank shots are much easier to acurately execute from a back pin reverse kick than any other moving way. Deadmans are sooo easy, like falling off a log from a back pin albeit a little slow and easy to race. Thus the reverse is the likely open play most of the time.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 11:13:06 AM »
well, I agree starting the lateral motion on the back pin is more difficult than any other shot but with proper practice and technique that can be over come...the lateral motion on a back pin for most people is slower than other shots and so it has gotten the rep for being a slower shot (more options and control but slower)

however, I have enough experience to know this is not true...if I could work with someone who had Bill Pappas hand speed, I could prove my point but until some top skilled players take up the shot, it will always be a novelty

I started out when I was young with the idea of changing that preception and was well on my way but life happened and I gave up the pursuit...now at 50, my time has past to influence people through proving the back pin at Majors and/or the World foosball stage so now I have to be satisfied with different goals

Offline grandmaster

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Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 11:31:28 AM »
Rick Martin had a nice pin push. Dan Kaiser and Rick won some tounaments in the 70's with Rick playing front and using the back pin. We  used to call him the "Rocket Launcher".

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2007, 01:05:03 PM »
I saw Rick play some time between 77-79 but never saw him shoot a back pin...I have heard others say he had a really good back pin and I am disappointed not to be able to see it...I have heard that Horton had a good one too

I take both of these with a grain of salt since I didn't see them and it wasn't in either case their primary shot...

Rick may have won a few tournaments while shooting the back pin particailly or primarily but Rick left and the game died right when back pins were beginning to become more accepted (early 80s)

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2007, 06:25:58 PM »
Towards the end of my foosing I lived by the back pin. Rocking and tap dancing it back and forth and going into a reverse push or pull or a push kick or pull kick angle from the side men. Depending on the table I might throw in a bank just to mix it up. Once in awhile I would do a three man toe reversal push kick starting in the middle with a back pin and reversing to my close man and kicking it to the far man and angling it in. You could get around a deadman that way. I played around Dan Kaiser a little and it seemed his big shot was the pull kick or push kick. He shot clean for sure. I don't know if Rick Martin was around then or not. The very best back pin reversals I ever saw was this guy in mid Wisconsin. Just incredible but that was on Deutcher Meister tables. He and his partner went down to Iowa and beat the Iowa state champions and Iowa was a real hot bed for foosball back in the mid 70's. Believe it or not, that was where my wife and I spent our honeymoon, foosing in Iowa, the quad cities area. I hate it that it died out like it did. Even now it would be hard to get a good game without traveling.

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 04:41:27 PM »
I've been toying around with the shot the last few days. I have gotten a lot better at moving the ball laterally and keeping it pinned, then releasing it from the pin when I want. Here are the shots I've done the most. Let me know if there are some other good and basic shots/series to try that I can pick up easily.

1. center man over the middle of the goal - push shoot straight; pull shoot straight
2. center man passes to near man and shoot straight near hole or angled (this shot is pretty fast and easy to repeat, but I'm not consistently controlling if it's straight or angled)


Offline Rios

Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 06:24:21 PM »
love the back pin!  it is a sweet shot, but it just doesnt win on tour...

the best back pin I have seen was from a guy up in Wisconsin.  Not sure of his name but it was a nasty shot.  Didnt do alot of reverses, but went dead man it seemed like every shot both ways and he would pinch a straight in there to keep you honest.  I love shooting it, but I am not that good with it.  It is fun for pick up games.

Offline pinalyzer

  • 46
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Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2007, 09:32:19 AM »
Hello Fellow Backpiners,
I have used the backpin to some success on tour and like the shot because it has many options most challenging, and it doesn't wear on the arm.
The downside is the jars can be drastic and hard to argue.
I like the dribble style, but can do the stopped shots... However my style is not a shoot fast and hard so the dribble, no telegraph style works for me.

Below is a quick brief on shooting the shot.

Overview of the back pin.
To start out you must know that it is not necessary to pin the ball hard to execute the shot.  There is the vise Back-Pin where you keep hard pressure between the man and the ball. Swaying back and forth or from the still position a player can execute the long to the near and far hole and the splits.  But, I will describe the dribble Back-Pin shot.  The difference is that you can apply fakes and shot the treaded middle from the back pin position when you are dribbling the ball.
The back pin like any other shots should use multiple options from the same starting position. However, with the back pin and front pin shots you have multiple options from multiple starting positions.  This tip covers the basic starting position of the middle forward 3-man position.
The starting position:
Place the ball by hand under the Middle 3-man and press down until you can pinch the ball between the man and the table.  You should be putting just enough pressure on the ball so that it cannot pinch out.
Hit down on the ball to verify that it is in place, once again it does not need to be hard.   
The next step is the lift the man up off the ball and raise to about 90 degrees and slam back down on the ball.  By doing this you can practice the optimum starting position for the back pin. 
Drills to learn shot.
With the ball securely in the back pin position on the middle 3-man move the ball just about ˝” to either side and re-catch the ball in the back pin position.  This “baby stepping” is a huge key in learning the dribbling method.  It builds confidence and a feel for the motion. As you are able to maintain the back pin position move farther and farther from the starting position. This walking of the ball is a key drill for the first couple of weeks as you are learning the shot or getting comfortable on a new table style. 
A key to the dribble is the release off the back pin when executing the shot. To learn this part you place the ball in the back pin position and press down on the ball and move the ball away from you till you have the ball in the front pin position.  Going back and forth between the front and back pin positions you develop the feel that is necessary to execute the options with minimal telegraphing.
As with any shot to telegraph where you are planning to shoot is not beneficial.  With the ability to dribble and the feel to shoot in place, you can start practicing the options.
While dribbling the back pin, shoot combinations, e.g. nearside dead bar/reverse push long, both side cutbacks, far side dead bar/reverse pull long.
To practice setting it up:
Once on the three man, move the ball into the push kick position with the ball to the side of the man.  Push toward the middle man and hit the side of the man and brush it up toll it in on the back pin.
Tips to maximize your shots effectiveness.
The last step is game play where you learn to read defenses and apply fakes.  Most people do the shake or scramble defenses and with those you can shoot the dead bar to either side.  One of my favorites is to fake to the push side which pulls the front man on the defense to move toward the push side of the hole.  This leave a little split and I take it, as I pull back and execute the 3 quarter pull side split.
A good drill is to move the ball from the middle man to each of the other men on the three rod while still maintaining back pin position.
The Pinalyzer


Offline grandmaster

  • 221
  • Any table, any time.
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2007, 10:02:29 AM »
Great post! We need more like it. Beginners read twice.

Offline Billings Semi-pro

  • 148
  • Front pin'n the Tornado table!
Re: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2007, 09:07:47 PM »
Back pins are fun but not my first or second choice of option for tourney matches.  I used to set the ball up in the back pin poisition on the 3bar, like pull shooters do.  I would look for the short, middle, long, and reverse options.  I can't tell you how many times I made a ball from all the top spin on the ball.  Back pins are cool but I shoot the front pin way better from the foreword position.  Back pin brush shots, reverses to a pull kick or push are the bomb from the goalie posoition.   I started out with back pins years ago but went to front pins from playing the french tables.  I adapted to the Tornado and now shoot front pins on it very well.  If you shoot a front pin, I would suggest learning the push, pull, and straight series.  I like the front pin cause it is closer to the goal.  I shoot a roller to but often when I shoot a front pin it is mistaken for a snake.  I would suggest walking the ball, tapping on the ball, and controlling the ball forwards and aft on the 3bar.  Controlling the ball is where is at. 

I played Rick Martin in a tourney in 06 and he was shooting nothing but a pull shot.  I would have loved to have seen his back pin compared to his pull.  I am sure he wished I shot my back pin on him instead of my front pin.  In my opinion, back pins just are not consitant enough to trade punches with.  Has any player ever won a forward shoot out just shooting a back pin?