Topic: Help shooting the back-pin and front-pin

[bbtuna]

My understanding is that in the early 80's several people won with backpins when the table fit the shot

there are a number of reasons you don't see backpins as primary shots
1.  On Euro tables, they have almost too much ball control which makes getting out from under the pin very difficult.  However, lots of control is perfect for a front pin which is the reason the Europin is the most popular shot on the 4 major European tables
2.  The back pin can be done on Tornado but it is not easy and it requires a ton of work much more than other shots.  The rollover is easy to learn, has many less variables/variations, looks cool, and can be effective almost right away

Even so, I think the backpin is potentially the best shot on the table.  These tables make it more difficult to shoot the shot but not impossible.  If players with outrageous skills like Billy Pappas and Fred Colliogon committed early in their learning to do the backpin, they would prove the value and worth of the shot.

However, this doesn't mean everyone would take on the shot.  Look at how dominant Fred has been with a Euro pin for the last almost 10 years on Tornado and yet no significant Tornado player has taken on the shot.  Why?  Because the roller is easier to learn and it is effective so people don't have the incentive to try and learn something which requires much more work.

Because you tried a backpin and found it was not as effective as another shot you tried is in no way evidence for one shot being better than the other.  All it proves is for you that one shot is better.

A backpin can go deadman in both directions, can shoot the 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 holes straight and brushed from any of up to 10 positions.  It can go reverse better than any shot on the table (not even a close second).   It can be shot from at least 3 distinctly different dribble methods in addition to a stationary rock, and a stand still.  You can do almost an unlimited number of types of fakes in the same direction or reverse.  And then there are all the options off the other 2 men on the 3 rod which are litterally unlimited.

enough for this post but more to come

backpinrules@yahoo.com
bbtuna
bbt
Charles

[grandmaster]

I agree Charles. The Backpin is the universal shooting method.
Happy Thanksgiving
Oly

[Billings Semi-pro]

BBtuna,

I said backpins were cool and all.  I still shoot them but you are right for me front pins are more effective.  I did play around with backpin rollovers but the straight was to hard for me.  Also, I have to agree with the backpin being the universal shooting method.  However, I don't see alot players winning with a 3bar that just shoots back pins.  I have seen games won with backpins as the forward "A" game but not big tourneys.  This is just my opinon.  I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to play in a tourney that had events that specified the shot forwards had to use.  For example, a back pin forward shoot out, back pins only singles, doubles, and so on.  Any shot on the rest of the table but the 3 bar.  It would be interested to watch let alone play. 

Jeremy

[Old Meister]

How would you like to play without any pins at all? That is how those Italian tables  were back in 69 through 73.  You couldn't pin a ball to save your life so everything you did was touch. Some guys setup shots and hit the long,short or dink with pulls or pushes. But the good guys made the ball dance by going around it and then doing lightening fast reversals. The men were hard with small non-textured feet and the tables were slick smooth. The balls were hard as marbles and were fast. Tornado players would pull their hair out trying to play on one of these.

[bbtuna]

Billings,

I was responding mainly to your comment

"In my opinion, back pins just are not consitant enough to trade punches with."

It is your opinion and it is your right to have any opinion that you want but that doesn't make the opinion fact. 

I agree that no backpin has one a major at least not since the 80's.  I also agree that you don't see any of the top competitive players shooting backpins on any of the 5 ITSF recognized tables.  Heck, I think it would be safe to say there isn't a player in the top 75-100 on each table shooting a backpin.

So, I can not and will not argue that the backpin is as viable a shot as the pull, europin, or rollover; the 3 shots which make up 98% of the worlds shooters and titles on every table for at least the last 25-30 years.  I will not argue that point based on tournament play.

However, that does not mean it is not a viable shot and as capable as any other shot at being "consistent" (your word).  Is there something in the shot that would keep players from being able to execute it with the same consistency as any other shot?  I think the answer to this is obvious...obviously "No".

Look at what the very best European players have been able to do with a Europin...Fred C. has been able to showcase for 10 years that a person is physically capable of consistenly shooting a Europin at the highest levels of competition.  There is nothing physical keeping a backpin from being able to do this too.

This is why I mentioned (in my first response to you) the reasons I don't think the backpin has ever caught on as a primary shot for top players.  I will go further to say it isn't likely it ever will, not because it lacks consistency, speed, options, etc but because of the reasons I mentioned in my first response.

It is sad, because it would make the game much more interesting if a mix of the top players used a backpin.  I promote the backpin with hopes that some day, some up and coming phenom player will choose the backpin as their primary shot.  I am disappointed that Tony Spredman didn't pick it up.  He would have been the most likely since his dad is a backpin shooter but he went with the power and wow of the rollover (and reivented that I might add).  Can you imagine the backpin in the hands of someone as creative and determined has Tony?

Anyway, it is the best shot on the table and it is capable of winning, we just haven't seen it come into the game as a prominent shot and likely never will.  I wish I was young again and hadn't given up on the game in 1980, I believe that history would now view the backpin differently.  However, I have to be content with trying to influence at this point.  I think if you faced me regularly and took some time to consider what you are seeing from a 50 year old player, you would totally and permanently change your view of the backpin.

[Billings Semi-pro]

bbtuna,

I showed my oldest son (Chance) the back pin today.  He is 10 years old and has a rough draft roller but because of your post I took the time to show him the elements of a backpin.  I used to shoot a backpin and still can but I prefer other options as they have proven themselves to be more consistent for me.  I encouraged him to consider this shot for his "A" game.  Hopefully, he will continue to practice it, we will just have to see. 

"I think if you faced me regularly and took some time to consider what you are seeing from a 50 year old player, you would totally and permanently change your view of the backpin."  So what are you saying?  If I played you regularly, I would change my mind just from seeing your game?  I wish, I could see a great back pinner.  I have seen several players your age (or close to it) shot back pins very well.  I am aware of the options.  Maybe we will see a young prodigy rise up with a new prospective and utilize the back pin in ways like you describe.  Hopefully soon.

[Billings Semi-pro]

Old Meister,

I was in Italy in the early 90's (NAVY) and played on a couple tables as you described.   I played against a bunch Italians and was able to take'em with pull shots and a hack fest.  I tried to pin the ball and it was a no go for me.  At that time I was  playing the french tables (in the states) and they were the complete opposite of the Italian table.  I have no idea the name of the table.  Go 2 ball roller ball! 

Jeremy Housley

[Old Meister]

Cool Billings! Yeah it was a hackfest type table alright. There were things you learned on it that could be used on later tables which really came out of left field for some goalies to block. I really hated that word,hack. As I learned the game I felt that the way to play was to show them a different shot for every point so they never knew what was coming and then mix that up with making sure they knew what was coming and shoving that down their throat. I wish that they had a tournament that you couldn't repeat a shot that you scored on per game. How do you think that would go over?

[Rios]

TOny's dad shoots a push kick series...  I think that he does shoot a back pin series from the back though...

[bbtuna]

Jeremy,

I am humbled and proud that you took time with your son.  My son is now 23 and never took up a serious interest in foosball.  It is too bad because he has some real nice natural skills including playing smart.  I spent time with both my kids when they were little (my second is a girl who will be 25 on Christmas eve). 

It is difficult for me to recommend to starting players to shoot a backpin even though I love it and think it is the best shot on the table.  I am up front, probalby to a fault, to tell people it is not only the best shot but it is the hardest shot to learn.  It takes a big commitment to get the shot tournament ready.  This is not true with a rollover.  The overall learning curve is shorter (much shorter) and you get almost instant gratification.  It goes booom and looks cool.  Any time you have spectators and they see a just a decent rollover they oooh and ahhh. 

The the basics of a rollover are simple, long both ways and a straight.  Now there is much more that can be done but even in its most complex mature form it is only a fraction of what a mature backpin has to deal with.

The natural release of a rollover is far superior to any other shot and this release alone makes it dangerous even in the hands of a novice.

Still, maybe someday, a young creative phenom will see all the benefits and make the commitment to develop a backpin.  When I was young, motivated, and had the time (now I am old, motivated, and don't have time) I wanted to develop a game that was unique and I wanted to find new boundries and take the game to places it had never been.  That was my dream for foosball.

This is what I would try and tell your son if I could.  To let him know that he could leave his mark on the history of foosball.  Foosball is still a young "sport" (or game) and we have not seen how far it can go.  Fred C. has taken the game to a new place but there is another like Fred out there right now.  Someone who will (and can) dedicate their life to the advancement of foosball.  It has to be a person with a pure desire and drive because they will need to do for the love of the game and not for money.  Like an artist or like early golfers, basketball players, baseball, football, etc.

As totally outstanding as Fred has been and all that he has accomplished (far far far beyond anyone else in the sports short history) I think it can go further.  I understand that FC doesn't practice any more except leading up to big tournaments.  I want to see someone like FC push and push well into his thirties practicing like they did when they were developing.  My gosh, who knows what FC would discover in the game.  FC is the closest but there is another out there now, maybe your son, who can rewrite foosball history and do it shooting a backpin.

ahhhh, we will see...maybe in my lifetime, just maybe

Charles

[grandmaster]

What a great topic this had been. In answer to the original question, you shoot the back pin the same way you get to Carngie Hall - practice, practice, practice!

[ventin]

Hey Charles,
i can feel your passion about the back pin where >95% would have conveniently ignored. I have the same passion too. At the moment, i guess there is no videos of foosers shooting the back pin with huge effectiveness and results.
Maybe you can do one for back pin lovers so that we can develop our game. A video is worth a thousand words. I will do one too when i get some folks to help me out.

Keep backpinning

[foosinaround69]

As far as I am concerned My backpin will never go away....NEVER..I've been shooting it forever and I shoot it now better than ever...I...not to toot my own horn...am definatly an expert in the backpin...(As told to me by many)..and I am here to tell you that it IS a shot that gets no credit and I wish more people would shoot it....My nick name is "Anacondabackpin"...And I don't shoot it with a wrist all the time..I use it with the open hand...and just when you think I'm going to slam it AGAIN...I brush it in the middle!!!! I love the backpin there are quite a few options and when it doesn't want to work properly(almost never..lol) I shoot the pull!!!!! When I shoot it I bring the ball side ways and slightly forword abit and kinda brush it in if you will (open handed) It did take awhile to perfect(years)..But it has payed off.....It works for me that's all I can say....!!!!!  Keep foosinaround!!!!

[Steve]

I shot a back pin in the late 70s deadman both sides its wicked if I had a good wrist I would still shoot it The push side I realy relaxed my wrist and stroked it out there .Know its the euro pin I shoot push side is hard to do but you dont have to shoot it much I walk the ball and split them 99% of the time either side use light to med pressure for the toss I palm roll so I can get around the ball fast I only have to beat one defender on the two rod once Im around him its hammer time ,Watch all the video on Fredreco his hand position the holes he pics he is the best with out a dought I am learning the front pin pullkick thats a fun one.

[bbtuna]

ventin

i have been asked this before and I need to take the time to do this

i would really like it if me, and FA69, and The Pinanlylzer were to make videos so you could see 3 dedicated backpinners with 3 distinct styles

i will work on my part