Topic: Need help buying table

[bfquad]

Which is better?
Solid rod vs Hollow (both 5/8 dia.)
Bushing or ball bearings
one goalie or three

Please advise of other things to look for.

Thanks,

[grandmaster]

Excellent questions. My personal table is equipped with solid rods. I choose solid rods to practice with as it helps with conditioning and stroke. Also they hit harder and stay straight basically for the life of the table or more. Ball bearings are a joke. It goes like this, you can spin the rod and go to the bathroom and come back and it is still spinning. The main problem with them is that they bind when you don't want them to and it screws up your shot and maybe your arm. One location I had requested that a single goalie be installed on at least one of the Tornado tables in their establishment (billiard hall). I was amazed at the difference. What a blast to play on! Just like the old days but way better. Something like driving a good hot rod. This table always made more money than the others, either for novelty or other reasons, but man was it fun. I swore to myself that day I would develop a kit for others to install so they could experience the total transformation that a TRADITIONAL ramped eleven man Tornado plays like. If you are lookng to get involved with foosball, do yourself a favor and buy a good used Tornado coin op and put solid rods on it. I practice with 13 man teams for the defensive aspects of tounament play ( ie blocking shots that glance off the outside guys on the goalie rod) but I am a pro and I still play for money. I stay prepared to play on any table, any time. But for the sheer fun of it there is nothing to compare to an eleven on eleven Tornado.
Oly

[bfquad]

Thanks. That tells me everything I wanted to know. It has been years since I played on a regular basis. Back in the 70's in college. I now have kids that are old enough and a room to put the table in.

[grandmaster]

You are welcome.
Happy Foosing!

[bbtuna]

solid rod verses hollow depends on how the rod is made...the newest Tornado heat-treated hollow rod is stronger, much stronger, than any solid rod I played on in the 70's

if you want to play competitvely in the US, for now anyway, you want the Tornado with the 3 man goalie so you know how to play with them

there is talk of a one man Tornado coming because of the International Table Soccer Federation (ITSF http://www.table-soccer.org/ )which recognizes 5 tables Tornado being the only one with 3 men (and the other 4 are all European tables)

there are kits available right now to convert a 3 man table to 1 man (http://www.recroom-products.com/1gocokit1.html) but I wouldn't do that until Tornado crosses over or a new table starts competeing for tournaments in the US that has 1 man goalie...there has been a lot of talk about this over the past 2 years and it is getting much closer to happening...it may never come about but the player base is sick of the corporate side of Tornado and the random constant table changes...long story, but bottom line is the situation is ripe for a new table and tour

here is a link to a full one man goalie discussion.... http://foosballboard.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5902&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=one+man+goalie&start=0

ball bearings could work if they were perfectly enginered but there aren't any like that...for now, the 3 piece set up Tornado has is as good as it gets without doing some custom stuff (which is available...if you want to know more let me know and I will point you in that direction...not cheap but well designed Tornado mods done by an engineer fooser Mark Murrell (same guy who did the super slow motion videos)

anyway, good luck

charles

[chance37]

It really depends on how serious you plan on getting.  Me I want what I play on when I play tournaments..but I also plan on taking over the foosworld.....becasue I play on a less expensive solid rod table at work and it screws with timing.  The rods are sturdy but the weight difference is going to make a difference when you play on a hollowed rod table.  The new heat treated rods are for real and are really durable.  Personally I do not prefer the ramped tables, but just my opinion.....

[grandmaster]

My timing is fine. I play on hollow bar Tornado tables or any thing else anyone will play on. At home it is high performance conditioning. The $6.95 Tournament Soccer bars on my Pro Practice (TS-6 clone) Tornado are still straight after more than fifteen years of use. In my experience no one who started on thirteen man teams will ever like playing on anything else. Just as most who start on hollow bars will never like solids. It always comes down to playing a guy on his home court if you think you're good. Any table any time, your place or mine. By the way I also have a 1965 Mondial telescoping molded man Italian table with a glass top that stll plays good also. Foos is foos and if you live with the ball you win.

[bbtuna]

GM,

I think what you say about table bias is true for a lot of people...well, at least at first but when exposed to other things long enough, most can find an appreciation for other things...I started on ramps and solid rods but when I came back to the game it had 3 man goalie/no ramps and hollow rods.

In both cases, I can see positives but I could just as easy take the old way as well.  I still have a Brown Top coin op I bought in 1981...well, my son has it now with original solid rods and original TS balls...it sat untouched in my basement or garage for at least 15 years...

off subject a little, but I remember back then playing on that table (and the Green and Blue tops) and struggling with learning control.  When I came to Tornado, I didn't think it had less control but I noticed right away how true the balls were and how consistent the roll of the ball was, tick tac's etc.  Then when my son uncovered the brown top and moved it into his first home and I stepped up, I was shocked at how much control there was...the ball and table did not roll true, that part didn't seem different from my memory but the ball control in a pinned position was unbelievable...I shoot a backpin and I had a VERY hard time getting the ball out from under the man...very weird...

very fun too, ramps (less slop), banks, passing was a bear, etc.

[grandmaster]

Eureka Charles, you are on to something. Why play at all? Because it is FUN. No matter the brand as long as you have someone to play.

[chance37]

A pro basketball player doesn't practice shooting a 3 pointer or free throws with a heavier ball...or shoot on 12 foot goals.....football players at the highest levels practice with the same gear and equipment they use in games.....soccer...the same....tennis...the same...Baseball the same....My point is you should practice with what your gonna compete with....yes the heavy rods were great, but they are out of date......

[bbtuna]

Chance,

what you are saying is not totally correct...baseball players use weights on their bats just before going to hit and for warm up, practice, etc...many other sports have resistance training with their strokes/movement including golf and others - resistance and weight training are found in almost every sport

you can have a hollow rod that weighs more than a solid rod and you can have a solid rod that has more flex in it than a hollow rod, it all depends on how the rod is designed (metal type, density, strength, circumference, length, etc)

Johnny Lott is working on a table, a sort of hy-bred of old and new and he is using a solid rod but the circumference is slightly smaller and in the end, it weighs almost exactly what the current hollow rod Tornado does...it is just as good flex/durability and it turns slightly faster because the circumference is smaller (which translates to power and speed at the point of contact)

and rod lateral speed and action is significantly impacted by bearings just another factor to consider

so, I think it is too simple to make broad statements about rod types without considering all the factors

[grandmaster]

What about swinging a bat with the iron ring on it in the on deck circle? Keep in mind I'll keep practicing on solids while we debate. Consider the possibillity that your thinking is prejudiced and your mind is closed. In addition I have actually weighed the individual rods three for three, two for two, five for five and the difference is measured in ounces per rod not pounds and if lighter is better why not play with the unwieghted men?

[grandmaster]

One more thought, why did Tornado abandon ALUMINUM rods? It wasn't too long ago they installed them on the entry level Whirlwind when it fisrt came out. They were solid rods and light wieght.

[chance37]

I agree on the weighted bats and resistance training  to build strength....but I have played football and the collegiate level and not to blow myself but was also a 4 sport athlete in high school and all state accolades in 3.  I agree with you partially,,,,,however where i disagree is that playing all the time on one weight...solid rods.......and then going to a totally different table is going to make the transition tougher.....I did swing 2 bats on the on deck circle...more to get loose and warm...but I never took 2 bats to the plate.....Golf is the same,,, resistance training systems build muslcles and strength, but when you practice for a tournament or just practice period.....you dont swing heavier clubs....I dont consider myself close minded...its just hard sometimes to communicate on these boards what you are really trying to get across.......sorry if I hurt anyones feelings or offended any old timers

[chance37]

I don't have the answer to that question but if its a point your making as to why the solid rods are "BETTER" then you win....The solid rods are better....But as I originally stated early in the post It really depends on how good you wanna get....if you are just getting a table to enjoy with friends and family...get whatever table you like.....but if you are more serious like I consider myself..get what you would play on in tournaments.......I know of very few players..( I don't know too many), that are actually pros that don't have the hollow rods on their tables.....And I think most people on here with the acception of you and a few others that wouldn't reccomend a tournament 2000 if they were all a dollar.  Hopefully I've made my point a little clearer...if not sorry