Topic: Need help buying table

[grandmaster]

I never said "all the time", I said practice, as in "training". And I never said not to practice on hollow bars. OK you're right, I'm the only one on earth who promotes solid rod high performance Tornado Table Soccer. Nobody likes solid rods but me. But I like them. What in the world would all of you do if the NEW MANAGEMENT at Tornado decided to switch to solid rods? Stranger things have already happened. Back when TS switched to get the DM crowd to buy thier "new" tables. Believe me there is at least one guy out there that says solid rod have more power- Billy Sumption.

[chance37]

if they switched gmaster I would buy the new ones and put them on my table..or even if they changed the table I'd buy anew one......if that is the table that is to be used in tournaments and is the official table and tornado-valley-brunswick whatever they are called this month could get the local promoters all over the us to use them.......then I would have 2 tables and practice just the same.....but with the state foosball is in I really doubt that'll happen.....

[grandmaster]

I am the only one that promotes solid rod high performance Tornado Table Soccer, this is true. But I practice on both. Years ago  TS went to solid rods to get everybody to buy their "new" tables. Who is to say that the new Management (Brunswick) won't follow suit? They are much cheaper ($6.95, retail) and durable. I have weighed them. the difference is slight, only a few ounces per rod. When I was of the mind set that hollow rods were best and heavy bars sucked I asked Billy Sumption why the pros liked them. He said "more power." This follows from Newton's Force= Mass X Acceleration. Change the mass and you must change the force. All in all it doesn't matter to me that the vast majority of players prefer hollow bars. I feel they are all missing out on a great way to condition themselves and improve their stokes. Not to mention the price dfference to the players who aren't as serious as you. Under $60 for a set or over $60 for two? Again I suggest you weigh the two bars, use the three or whatever. I know for a fact it is way under a pound difference. And you are a weightlifter, right? Long ago I learned to get a thick skin on this issue so no feelings can ever be hurt. But I believe you are hurting your own chances to improve your game a lot over a differece in weight of less than one pound per rod. It was hard for me to give up my attitude that hollow bars were "faster". It took a lot of work to learn to play on solid bars and at first I hated it. But Bill was right solid bars have more power. Have you ever shot the foot off the goalie on Tornado? I have. But it was with a solid three row. I saved the man and foot to remind me Sumption was right, solid rods shoot with more power. One of these days I'll see you across the table and you can judge for yourself. Or better yet call me when you pass through on I-90 on you way to a tournament somewhere and I'll warm you up good. Any table any time, that 's my motto.
Oly 605-391-5958       

[bbtuna]

again, how much power you get has to do with the rod design more than if it is solid or hollow

breaking a man on the goalie 3 bar is not evidence it is annacdotal evidence...there are many other reasons that the man could have broken which I won't take the time to cover

what about a hollow rod that weighed more than a solid rod?  weight is not the only factor which impacts what kind of power is generated

I am in favor of weighting a rod for practicing and/or strength conditioning but this thread has turned into something more like solid=good and hollow=bad or vice versa

I am not arguing for one or the other, I am just saying, there are too many varaibles to make blanket statements that one is absolutely better than the other...

[chance37]

I agree I never said the hollow were better, but i did say it would benefit to practice on what you compete...I am a young player...not too young, but for where I play i'm young...I don't know whats better, but I do know from my experience competing in many sports, practicing on what you play is a benefit....I also think that making major changes to the tables isn't a good idea atleast right now...

[bbtuna]

im not fer nor agin but there is something to playing on different tables and conditions especially in foosball...i can see how that would help you learn how to adjust quicker

i mean the best foosball player ever grew up on all kinds of tables and can play on anything and has one almost everything on every table for almost 10 years straight

[Old Meister]

I hear what GM is saying and agree. The thing about a heavier bar is it let's you accelerate with the ball on a pull or push when you go with power. In practicing on my newly acquired table it was one of the first things I noticed, I was out of time with the ball due to to bar being light. I'll admit I'm as rusty as can be but I can deal with it. I don't think it is any more being rusty though as it is such a different animal to play on. Touchy!

[grandmaster]

I wonder if anyone will make a graphite rod as in fishing or tennis equipment?

[grandmaster]

Hey OM, I remember the early days of Tornado's revelutionary 3 man goalie and watching Todd L. sprinkle ROSIN on his shooting rods in order to slow down his stroke so he could hit the ball. I myself won the Denver City Singles Tournament by shooting an accidental pullshot that ALWAYS cut back where I didn't aim it. My opponent kept calling it "the Pro Cut". When I asked him why he said Todd and the other Denver pro pull shooters all shoot it. I thought to myself, they are missing their pull just like me. It must have something to do with the table? That particular Sunday Todd and Tom were in San Diego. I believe that was where they met  Terry Moore for the first time. All of us old brown top Pros had to adapt to the new equipment if we wanted to play in Tornado events. Keep in mind Dynamo went through a phase where they made a clone of the Brown Top TS... with SOLID RODS. Yes, a solid rod Dynamo in the 80's was made for tournament use. I was visiting Doug Furry in Lexington when he showed me a box of rods in 1984, the first set of heavy hollow bars in the North. He explained they were a compromise of sorts due to the opinion of the manufacturer that they were convinced hollow bars lend to cabinet longevity. But the players wanted power, thus the compromise on  heavy hollows. Johnny Lott had sent the bars to Furry to see if he liked them first before they went on with producing, I believe, the new Dynamo (not the clone) Brown top 11 man table with the assymetrical foot on a man designed by JL. There have been a lot of changes and there will be more but for a long time Tornado has been the Standard. Now the European game with 11 men has made a comeback, foosball is healthy again and the debates continue. Good posting everyone, and good foosing to you all.

[Old Meister]

Interesting GM, in trying to hit my pull I noticed just that, back angling. Doug Furry,, I think he won the Nationals in '77 that  I played in Minnesota. That was when the switch to Brown tops (TS) occurred. What a shock that was seeing those tables after owning and playing on blue tops and then not even knowing about the brown top tables. You'd have to have hands like a basketball player to ever shoot a snake on those big handles. Needless to say I didn't do well. They had a Porche Targa as first prize.

[grandmaster]

Yes, that would be Super Singles in 1977 at the Radison South in Bloomington. Over 160 new Rosewood Blue Top TS tables in one ROOM. Doug won the car with a backpin pushshot with a roll from the FIVE ROW. When it was over I asked him to play me one game of singles for memory's sake. He skunked me in nothin' flat... one handed!

[Old Meister]

Huh, I thought that was the tournament that TS changed over to Brown tops, maybe it was the next big tournament down at Lake Genieva,Wisconsin. I remember being miffed because I knew nothing about the change. So you were there at Bloomington. I was definitely a hacker, I learned alot about tournament foosball at that tournament. Do they have tournaments of comparable size now a days?

[grandmaster]

Blue '77. Brown '78. Me too. I remember asking Johnny Lott how in %^$# do you catch a pass on these $%^#@* tables? Lake Geneva at the Playboy Hotel? In 1978 I turned pro by winning $200 at a tournament in Lake Geneva. Back then the mark was $400. If you made more than $400 in tour events you achieved "Pro Status". Ah, those were the daysBut foos is coming back strong. It isn't like it was, but improving all the time.