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Palm shots on Tornados

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Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2007, 09:59:03 PM »
GM,

you sound like you have some good experience with tables building and reconfiguring

however, Mark Murrell is the resident expert on Tornado...he is an engineer with creative talent and access to materials...

again, this isn't up for debate, it is already proven...I don't know how the strips you used varied from his but I can tell you he all but eliminated the ball jumping up and off the table

I am not debating with you the physics of how the table surface interacts with the ball...it very well may do what you say, I am not an engineer or expert in physics and don't have any data to agree or disagree with your statements on that subject

I do have data to back up the strip discussion so I will stand my ground on that front

however, I 100% agree with the foot of the man and can tell you from much personal experience backed by imperical evidence from others, that that stupid curved foot creates all kinds of odd nearly uncontrollable reactions

we will just have to agree to disagree on the rods..too many variables to set a fair comparrison

The basic functional quirks of the Tornado we have today were made before the Rollover was discoverd as a serious tournament shot - this means the Tornado was not designed for one shot...now it was designed I understand, to kill banks and that design plan worked...as a by product, the foot design caters to the brush pass which is one of the main reasons it is so popular today (besides that it works)

the early Tornado before the major design changes we live with today, I am told by those who were there and who love banks, that it banked very well

oh well, regardless, we have a table with some shortcomings which could be addressed with some reengineering but I am afarid there is no interest by corporate VB to make the best table in the world

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2007, 10:12:08 PM »
I have gotten to know Johnny Lott very well over the past 2 years and have intimate knowledge about his table design and philosophy...if he can pull off what he is trying to do, you will love his table

1 man goalie
solid rods
much better foot design on the man
indistructable goal mouth
a totally unique table surface design (what is painted on there) that will help beginners learn shots and set up defenses much quicker and I think veterans will like it as well
no side strips
large metal leveler feet

I agree with 99% of his design and will live with what I don't agree with to get the benifit of the rest...I guess, the only thing I don't agree with his that the goal mouth is smaller than Tornado and the man's foot is like an 1/8 inch wider...I am okay with the foot being wider, this is meant to put more weight in the foot and make it easier for beginner to start playing...however, I don't think the goal should be shortened...I think the defensive and offensive battle that goes on today is a good balance and this tips the balance in favor of the defense.

the Medalist, which was to be the Legend originally, is almost everything Johnny wanted and people have played on this table and you can bank to your hearts content (with MDF play surface)

Johnny learned a few things during that table design and will incorporate a few of those in the table he is working on now

I just hope he can get full funding and control the table design 100%...it could revolutionize the game today

Offline EDGEER

  • 403
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2007, 02:16:57 AM »
The basic functional quirks of the Tornado we have today were made before the Rollover was discoverd as a serious tournament shot - this means the Tornado was not designed for one shot...now it was designed I understand, to kill banks and that design plan worked...as a by product, the foot design caters to the brush pass which is one of the main reasons it is so popular today (besides that it works)

the early Tornado before the major design changes we live with today, I am told by those who were there and who love banks, that it banked very well

oh well, regardless, we have a table with some shortcomings which could be addressed with some reengineering but I am afarid there is no interest by corporate VB to make the best table in the world

I was there and the design change of the man was not intended to kill banks. LOL   I had many discussions with Ed McCloud before he changed the design of the man, and that never entered into the equation.   McCloud seriously thought that his new design would improve the back-pin.  He had a huge drawing of the design on a drafting board in is office.  He drew the man in 5 minute intervals as if in motion.  He really thought it would be the perfect man to shoot a back-pin.  Like I said I was there. 

I also introduced Ed McCloud to Brian Venton at Wilsonart, an gave McCloud my design for the custom printed HPL playing surface on 3/4" MDF.  I showed him how to build the boxes joinery to make it less expensive, better and easier to assemble.  I also invented the 3-man goalie, and showed McCloud the change in the bearing placement to allow the ball to be played off the back wall when trap against it.  I designed the side strip as well.  Originally it was 1 3/16" white pvc edgebanding that was split down the middle.  Without the side strip you would break the man when you trapped the ball hard against the wall.  Unfortunetly it was me that suggested to McClooud he radius the edges of the paddle to keep the man from tearing chunks out of the balls.  I never would have thought that one change would have had such a negative effect.  I guess there is probably a 1500 different tour players that quite because they could no longer shoot a straight angle.  For that I am truly sorry.  Any way, like I said I was there.

Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 08:18:14 AM »
Johnny Lott's table sounds like a 'Heavy Metal Deutcher Meister', I love it! With Premier pushing a TS type table and Lott's table it sounds like Tornado better sit up and pay attention.  GM's observations on give in the play surface ring true with me as I also play pool and understand the concept he states. It probably is both the strip and the give in the bed. The bed could be addressed with a double layered bed with a 'give' layer between like a basketball court. Edgeer, why didn't Tornado just keep going on design tweaking until the product addressed all the problems? Considering the times, I could see why such a change would be the final straw for maturing people who saw their sport slowly going a way and then the new table so limited. All while families to be raised and such. But look now, The Boomers are done with alot of that and are retireing or getting close. Now they want to have fun. And they want to introduce their families to what was a big thing for them.THERE'S your new/old market! But you better give them what they want. They need to be able to do their old shots. Johnny Lott is on to something from the discription of his table. I don't think my rants are mine alone. I think this is something that should be paid attention to in order for this sport to grow.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 10:32:01 AM »
so Ed, basically you are saying you ruined the table  >:(  I appreciate your attempt to help the backpin but wow, that went wrong and it killed angles at the same time...double the pleasure...dude, I am going to have to reconcile this, it will take me some time to get over this devastating news  :(

why haven't you shared this on the Foosball Board I think I have read every post on this subject for nearly 3 years and this has come up many many times

I don't doubt you but there are a lot of people who claim to have first hand personal experience with all this and I have heard of others claiming certain design decisions...I am not asking you to defend your comments, I am just commenting that as an outsider, it is difficult to piece together the history on all this

love you man, glad you are over here participating, don't let my comments mean anything...i will get over the shock of it all being a back pin shooter and all... :'(

Offline EDGEER

  • 403
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 12:37:03 PM »
The shape of the paddle was all Ed McCloud's idea.  I Ed Geer suggested to McCloud he ease the edge just a little, say like a 1/64" Radius.  When he made the molds he used a much bigger radius.  I have shared this several times on the old ezboard,  even had it in my profile, but all that was lost. 

By the way, there isn't a sole on earth that can say McCloud intentially tried to eliminate the bank shot, because it just isn't true.  McCloud was familiar with popular shots being used on TS at the time and his goal was to design a man that would do them better.  McCloud would never do anything to run off a customer.  It was a major decision for McCloud to change the man design back in 1981.  I gave my table designs to him in 1981 and he didn't start building the 3-man goal/HPL surface tables until late in 1982.  It was a big decision to tell all his route customers thier tables where going to be obsolete. McCloud decided to waite and put the new man design on the radiacally different 3-man goalie table in 1983.  The 1983 nationals was the first on the new 3-man goalie tables.  There was such a difference in the way the new table played that was totally different than the tables he had out on route, he knew it would require that all those old tables be replaced.  It is that same mentallity that prevents Valley from changing the man design today.  If they change the man design today all those tables out on location and in the warehouse become obsolete.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 12:45:05 PM by EDGEER »

Offline EDGEER

  • 403
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 12:54:06 PM »
Here is a letter I posted once on ezboard.

From: Edmund Geer

Some twenty-six years ago I gave Ed McCloud designs on cabinet construction that eliminated the corner ramps by introducing the 3-man goalie and most importantly, my contact at Wilson-Art on the custom laminating process of the playing field.  I liked McCloud, even though he could be an egotistic SOB sometimes, to my knowledge he never claimed any ownership of my innovations.  Here is brief history of how I came to recruit the 13th man.   

I learned to play foosball when I was in High school.  I played pretty seriously for about 5yrs and eventually won a National Championship as a novice in the early 80's.  After reflecting on the state of things, I stopped playing foosball in 1983 to focus my attention on my family, education and job.  I now have a degree from TCU and hold a CPA license.  My wife and I have a successful business that allows me to enjoy the game of foosball once more.

Building the first table with a 3-man goalie and a high-pressure laminate (HLP) playing surface is my claim to fame as far as foosball goes.  These two ideas came out of necessity.  In 1980 I bought a used Dynamo that had new Tornado rods and men.  The problem was the hole was huge.  I was working as a furniture maker in my uncle’s shop at the time.  My plan was to make a new table based on Tornado dimensions using the glass top and corners from the old table.  After I had dismantled the old table I placed the glass top against the wall in the shop.  As it turned out the glass fell and broke into literally 1 million pieces.  Pricing a replacement, I found the cost to be around $85, which I didn't have.  In a pinch, I did have some scrap lime green Nevamar HPL and decided it would have to do for the playing field. 

In April of 1981, I got a job at General Dynamics and decided to leave my uncles employment. I asked his permission to leave the table in his shop until I could finish it.  Well a few days turned into a few weeks until finally my uncle loss patience a told me to get the table out of his shop.  During this time I had been contemplating how to put the corners into the table. I couldn't find any easy way to do it and with my uncle harassing me to finish the table, I decided to forgo the corners altogether and buy four extra men to go where the metal stops where.  Luckily, I had not drilled the holes for the bushings. Upon laying out the rod and man for the goalie, I discovered the goalie rod had to be moved back toward the back wall in order for the toe of the man to reach the top of a ball pinned against the wall.  With that I finished the table and got it out of my uncles shop. 

I was amazed how well the table played.  The HPL over MDF playing field was so smooth, and the ball rolled perfectly straight, side to side, corner to corner.  That was certainly something new to those of us who had been playing on glass top tables.  Well, I used the table to practice and even considered the possibility of building the table commercially.  At the time Ed McCloud’s company was in a slump. McCloud had dealers across the nation and was only building 5 to 10 tables a month he was also talking about possible bankruptcy.  I analyzed the economics and determined it not feasible (the bank wouldn’t loan me the money) to market my table.  I decided I had neither the resources nor desire necessary to successfully market a foosball table.   At the next Tornado Nationals, I sat with McCloud and gave my ideas to him on the back of an envelope and he in turned incorporated them into the table we play on today.   Any way, that’s the story of how that 13th man got on the team.  Hope you enjoyed.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2007, 09:51:52 PM »
Ed that was good...that does sound familiar...good story...I know if I owned a foosball business I would try and have at these elements...

1.  A Research and Development department driven by creative chemistry/engineering...this department would study new materials and designs and study how they interact compared to current designs and materials.  The idea is to find the best combination of surface, ball, man, inside walls, leg design, etc.
2.  A cost no object table where the best engineering and materials were used to design the best table possible.  The intent is to find the best materials and engineering and to see what of that can trickle down to lower models like happens in high-end audio.
3.  Establish table standards (demensions) which are well documented and distributed with the goal of establishing a world wide standard for tournament play.
4.  Create a "tournament" table...I would want base of this table as the standard coin-op but with some subtle important differences.

Offline bbtuna

  • 1465
  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2007, 09:52:51 PM »
oh yea, and after Ed M realized the foot design ruined a good portion of the game, wy didn't he redesign the foot or go back to the old one until he could?

Offline EDGEER

  • 403
Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2007, 10:12:01 PM »
oh yea, and after Ed M realized the foot design ruined a good portion of the game, wy didn't he redesign the foot or go back to the old one until he could?

I couldn't really say, maybe it was such an ordeal to make the change in the first place.  I don't think McCloud would scrap his baby.  McCloud's distributors and vendors already had to buy into the new design once, changing it again could have forced them to Dynamo in mass.

Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2007, 11:40:47 AM »
Man it is very interesting reading all of this....I always enjoy reading these type of posts...IMO there is one thing more improtant than changing the design of the tables and that getting younger players involved....with the downfall of local arcades and video games being played at home on the new ps and x box systems the game is only known for the most part by players that were around in the 70s and 80s not in the past 20 years.....without younger players there will be no game..I know there are some people doing some great things at Youth clubs etc...but they are few and far between....and on another page...where I play in central florida...Orlando...Most and I mean Most of the local players that play in tournaments here are complete assholes and do not welcome newbies at all.....I know this may be different elsewhere but boy what a turnoff....jmo

Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2007, 06:25:08 PM »
The key to the push shot is the position of the ball before you take the shot. It needs to be slightly behind the center of the rod (away from the goal). This way you get a longer follow-through on the ball as you flick your wrist (like revving a motorcycle - only much faster).

I find that it helps when your forearm is more perpendicular to the handle, rather than parallel to the handle.

Try it out.


Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2007, 07:34:13 PM »
ndefreitas, That is how I do my palm push but last night I finally got my wrist shot going and actually I have to start it slightly in front of the bar(closer to the goal) to get the nice hook on the shape of the shot. I realized that bbtuna was right in that my muscles just weren't programmed for it even though my brain remembered the feel of it. I'm actually sore but more and more of my shots are working. I woke up in the middle of the night and then started thinking about shots and counter shots, do you ever have that happen? My 5 bar is coming along pretty good too. I'm getting there and already learning some new stuff due to the way the table plays.

Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2007, 02:15:44 PM »
LOL

That happened to me in the Spring - been foosin ever since.
Check out the movies section on this site (http://www.njfoosball.com/movies/movies.htm) - it's got some nice 5-bar passing.


Re: Palm shots on Tornados
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2007, 05:09:02 PM »
While this might be a bit embarrassing I think my lingo might not be the same as modern lingo, or this is what I'm beginning to think. In my area of N. Wisconsin we referred to the open handed shot as a palm shot while the closed handed shot as a wrist shot. Is this correct in today's lingo?