Topic: Stopped ball definition

[rradjabi]

I'm wondering what you call a stopped ball. In a brush pass, I sometimes let my ball slow down a lot and sometimes I pass as it gets very close to a stop. What defines a stopped ball?

Also, how about when the ball is pinned? Is it possible to roll the foot of a man over the ball and change the ball's direction without stopping the ball? I'll try to clarify: the ball is rolling from the 2 to 1 man on the five-rod, and in a back-pin, the 1 man pins and rolls the ball back towards the 2 man. In changing directions, has the ball, by definition, stopped?

[PatRyan]

rrad,

In the first part of your question about the stopped ball:
A stopped ball is one that has "stopped moving" 

You can pass the ball legally immediately upon the ball stopping.  This "immediate" part is a judgement call that can only be made by an official present at the table.  So what you describe is perfectly legal.  Heck, you could probably (not 100% sure without actually seeing it) wait a few fractions of a second more if needed.

As for the second part of your question, what you are describing is an adjustment and is not legal if you pass with the same man that slowed the ball down (by using the face of the foot).  In general change of direction does not constitute a stopped ball.  For example if you draw the ball over toward the wall using the #2 figure, reverse the direction of the ball using the side of the foot of the #1 man, then pass using the #1 man. that is perfectly legal.  However adjusting the speed or direction of the ball with the "face" of the foot anf then subsequently passing with that same man without touching another player figure, is not legal.

I how that was some what clear.  If not, I can try to elaborate on it some more.

PR

[hacker]

Since we are on this subject ... What about a spinning ball? When does the time start for possession? If the ball has stopped lateral movement, but is still spinning, when is it considered the start of your 15 seconds?

[PatRyan]

Time starts when the ball is within reach of the player figure.  If you can touch the ball, time is ticking.  When that would matter most is in the goalie area, if the ball is spinning and it is NOT within reach of a player figure (between the 2 man rod and the goalie rod) time is suspended, then continues when the ball is again within reach.

Clear as mud   

[EDGEER]

Hey Pat whats up?  The definition of an adjustment has changed in the ITSF rules.  It now reads something along the lines of; if the ball strikes the face or back of a man before the motion of a pass it must strike another man before being legally passed.  It doesn't mention change of direction anymore.

[PatRyan]

Ed,

You are correct that the "adjustment" and CHange of direction wording have been removed.  However, net outcome is essentially the same. There are minor differences that I couldn't quite put into words but could easily show on a table   

Essentially if the face of the man touches the ball prior to the motion of a pass, it must touch a second man before being advanced.  I was being a bit more descriptive without using the exact wording of the new rule (kind of silly to answer a question with the exact rule wording).  Rather I was just citing a couple of scenarios that would be considered not legal based on rrad's description.

anyway,  you going to Vegas in March?

[EDGEER]

I can almost see where his description is not covered by the new standard.  Changing direction is not stopping the ball if it is immediate.   I never did like the adjustment rule in the first place.  I have yet to have a head official including Adrian and Tom show me one, and I have asked a couple of times.  So under the new rule if you pick up a rolling ball from 2 to 1 and walk it with the face towards the near wall you can pass it forward as long as it is in the motion of a pass?  I like it, good change!   

[EDGEER]

And yes I am planning on going to Vegas, you need a partner for pro dubs?  If you play with my 1065 points you probably want be the favorite.  Hell you could pick up a couple hundred points if we win!

[PatRyan]

So under the new rule if you pick up a rolling ball from 2 to 1 and walk it with the face towards the near wall you can pass it forward as long as it is in the motion of a pass?   

Not exactly,  Ifyou walk the ball with the face of the #1 man then execute the pass with the #1 man, that would be illegal, as the walk or brushing of the ball with the face of the man to cause the ball to move laterally, is not the actual motion of the forward pass, the ball would need to touch another man before advancing.

After rereading the rule though, I will ask Adrian and Tom about an actual adjustment without the face of the man every leaving contact with the ball then immediately advancing the ball.  A classic "Jeep" adjustment.

[EDGEER]

The adjustment rule is a through back to TS when shortly after the elimination of the set ball pass Lott and others would rock the ball in place and then brush up or down.  Their pass was technically moving, but I guess it was to hard to defend?  Frankly I don't see anything wrong or against the spirit of the game by allowing it to a smaller degree.  Maybe that is what the new rule attempts to do?  What I am saying is if the meaning of the new rule is the same as the old one, then why would they have changed the wording.  I am going to see if I can get Tom on here to elaborate.

[PatRyan]

I have played under rules that allow the moving 1-man pass, very tough to block.  It is essentially like trying to defend a shot from the 5 rod to the 3 rod with one guy. You can abuse the one man moving ball pass easily and VERY effectively.  I am still curious about the adjustment though.  I could see the interpretation of the way it is currently written going either way, I could make both arguments 

[TomYore]

Hi Guys,

The wording of the adjustment rule has changed but the rule itself is still in place.  Of course, it was omitted in the first version of the ITSF rules but added in the next version.  We thought it was unnecessary to mention changing the "speed or direction" of the ball with the front or back of the man because the new wording makes it illegal anyway. 

Don't confuse the adjustment rule with the stopped ball rule.  They are separate. 

Ed, your example of walking the ball with the front of the man prior to passing with the same man is a perfect example of an adjustment, even though the word "adjustment" is no longer in the rules.

Best Regards,

-Tom

[rradjabi]

Thanks for all the replies.

Does what Pat said about the stopped ball still stand?

"You can pass the ball legally immediately upon the ball stopping.  This "immediate" part is a judgement call that can only be made by an official present at the table.  So what you describe is perfectly legal.  Heck, you could probably (not 100% sure without actually seeing it) wait a few fractions of a second more if needed."

[PatRyan]

Yes, what I said about the stopped ball is correct.  As a matter of fact, what I said about the adjustment is correct as well.   

[PatRyan]

Tom,

thanks for posting with the clarification.



Pat Ryan