Topic: PRACTICE - Repetition is the Mother of Genius

[bbtuna]

What are your goals?
How often do you practice?
How long do you practice?
What kind of things do you do during practice and what have you found most helpful and least helpful?

What level player do others think you are and do you agree?  With this in mind, how much time do you spend on ball control?  If you do ball control practice, what kind of things do you do?

it would be great to hear about all of this from as many people as possible but really these are just spring boards to get a discussion about practice started

I know I will benefit and I thought others might as well

[PatRyan]

What are your goals?

To improve my game in some way each time I am finished practicing

How often do you practice?

Not as often as I should.  I hadn't practiced in about 6 years until about 2 months ago.  Now I practice about 2-3 times per week.

How long do you practice?

I try to practice about 2 hours at a time.  I break that down into 20 minute periods of practice with 10 minute breaks in between. (to kind of simulate down time between matches and to work on warming back up quickly)

What kind of things do you do during practice and what have you found most helpful and least helpful?

Offensive 5-man practice with a twist.  I made a couple of clip-on man to attach to the opposing 5-man rod to make the lanes much smaller when I practice.  Holes look HUGE when it comes to game time!  Also work on my pull shot and my weak rollover.  I usually spend about 1/3 of my time doing ball control drills (used to be over 1/2 the practice time).

What level player do others think you are and do you agree?  With this in mind, how much time do you spend on ball control?  If you do ball control practice, what kind of things do you do?

You would have to ask other players at what level they think I play.  I would rate may game as a VERY good 5-man and very good defense.  My 3-rod is the weakest part of my game.
As far as ball control drills and practice, I use a variety (depends on my mood).  lots of tic-tacs on all rods, utilizing the walls as well as the men.  I also do pin control drills where I move the ball between the men on the rod switching from front pin to back pin all along the men on the rod.  I also do drills where I move the ball between the rods (with the opposing rods raised out of the way). 

it would be great to hear about all of this from as many people as possible but really these are just spring boards to get a discussion about practice started

I know I will benefit and I thought others might as well

Thats my 2 cents for now. I do some other stuff when I practice, too much to type for now.  I'll try to post some more a bit later.

[EDGEER]

What are your goals?  To become pro rated again
How often do you practice?  Practice 3days, Play 2 tournaments
How long do you practice? 2 to 3 hrs
What kind of things do you do during practice and what have you found most helpful and least helpful?  Ball control on every rod.  Least helpful, Shooting reps on the 3 rod unless I have a goalie to shoot at.

What level player do others think you are and do you agree?  Semi-pro at best. Unfortunately yes.
With this in mind, how much time do you spend on ball control?   If you do ball control practice, what kind of things do you do? I will do a pass 20 times successfully before moving to the next.  I always begin practice with tic-tac rythmns.

[Chase Pennell]

Q-What are your goals?
A-The same as everyone else getting better!


Q-How often do you practice?
A-a little everyday but if i know an event is coming up i practice everyday


Q-How long do you practice?
A-it isnt a case of how long it is a case of how many...i pick what i am going to practice say it is my long pull shot and wall pass...i will drop the ball and pass and shoot 100X it shouldnt take very long 30mins to an hours at most!


Q- What kind of things do you do during practice and what have you found most helpful and least helpful?
A-Most helpful is 5-bar practice


Q-What level player do others think you are and do you agree?
A- I am ranked 1420 Amateur on IFP yea sure i agree with it (hehe)

Q- With this in mind, how much time do you spend on ball control?  If you do ball control practice, what kind of things do you do?
A- Pinning the ball and moving it around from man to man it really helps with catching lose balls and that is huge! and tic-tacking literally for extended periods of time!


it would be great to hear about all of this from as many people as possible but really these are just spring boards to get a discussion about practice started

I know I will benefit and I thought others might as well


Chase

[Old Meister]

That's all I do is practice as there is nobody to play. What I practice is the new-to-me shots that  seem to work best on Tornado tables like the Snake and a  pin series or two. I also work a lot on my passing, tic tacking different men back and forth and letting it go into a pass without getting lost. What I really like is watching good matches on Youtube and getting fired up and then go smoke some shots. Then I come on here to throw out something or other but what I really want is to try to kick some a__ on you guys. There, that's my motivation and hopefully a someday goal.
   One thing I've learned about practice is what really is going on during practice. Practice is about consciously trying to learn an action and repeating it so that muscle memory allows you to repeat that action with your subconscious.  This game is way too fast paced to control with conscious play. When you play you recognize situations and react. Or you "feel" the shot before you execute that shot. You don't tell yourself,"I'm going to move the ball here and hit it hard there" as you do it. It's all preprogrammed, whether by practice or play. The hardest thing about what to practice is to recognize and be honest enough to admit you aren't so good on some portion of your game. Another thing to ""practice" is thinking right. Never beat yourself up! Don't berate yourself to an opponent so as to make an excuse should he happen to beat you. Be the "Iceman", act it and try to be it. You don't owe anyone an explanation for your play. Just keep looking for the edge. Your demeanor will either help you or help him, choose you. After learning effective play we are then involved with the mental play and that is something many haven't paid attention to yet it is what separates winners from losers. It is huge. Confidence is the oil that makes for solid play. Confidence comes from the right practice, an understanding of what you bring to the table even if it may not be the most skilled as compared to others. Knowing your limits is a strength in itself. And one more thing that is most important, acknowledge that you love this game and if you play a highly skilled opponent it is exactly what you want and have fun with it. If your having fun you will play your best.

[gitablok]

Ok, you have started a thread that will never end, lol. Like Pat, I will hit a couple and come back later.

First, I am a 2200 plus point pro, primarily a goalie. I consider myself to be a pro-master goalie. Others have also told me they consider me to be of pro-master caliber in goal.

If you are practicing properly, there is no such thing as "least" useful. It is all useful.

One thing I don't see mentioned is the use of video. I use this medium in my other disciplines to figure things out. Pool, drag racing, etc.. For example, identify someone you know does something well and videotape them. Then set the camera up and then try to do the same thing. You now have a visual record of yourself. Figure what you need to do by analyzing what you are doing wrong and right for that matter.

Time is not relevant in my eyes. I identify my biggest problem and work on it till I fix it. If I don't, I start my next session with same issue.

Ball control is everything. Without it, you can't get the ball in position to do what you need to. Tic-tacing is fine, but also work on caressing the ball to a stop after a strong toss on every rod, every man.

That's all for now. Be a little more specific next time like how do you practice shooting a straight pull or something and I'll try my best to explain.

Laters,
Iceman.

[Alan Cribbs]

Practice Session:

This mainly applies to the pin series, but hear it goes.
Beginners usually ask what's the best way to practice.
I'll ask, "Are you more concerned with passing, shooting or ball control?"
They usually go for the shooting option every time. In 1976, I was shown the
5-5-5-5 practice plan. It was developed by an old fooser that wanted to create
a mechanical practice routine while adding on simulated tournament pressure.

The player simply shoots:
5 pin pulls
5 pin pushes
5 pin put-cut(angle)
5 pin push-cut(angle)
in sequence and if he/she misses any shot at any time, they must start over again at the beginning.
We use to call it shooting for the "cycle". It will help develop focus and patience. It's not that easy


Later,

AC

[chance37]

my goal is to be pro.  Ive been playing for a year and a half and have been told by many pros here that I am the most improved player and that Ive picked the game up as fast as theyve seen.

I practice every day at least 30 minutes.  I play 2 tournaments a week most of the time...sometimes just one.

I video my practice and watch it after or the next day.  I was a 3 sport athlete in high school and had the opportunity to play each in college but chose kicking footballs.  I understand the importance of video.  I feel you can learn more from that than just banging out ball after ball for hours on end...

I am a rookie when we have handicapped events....the points ive been assigned for the tournament we have here....I can beat most of the other guys he has a few hundred points ahead of me....but im not gonna say nothin...

I spend all of my time on ball control.....My weakness is my five bar.  I have a really fast stick...and can jam it in the lane and to the wall pretty good.  My problem is reading there 5 bar and going when i should.  Im working on that.  I see these things in video.  The other night I had 2 pros and a guy that can be pro over to play.  They are getting ready for a tournament here in orlando and Atl.  I played back mostly but when I played up front  struggled getting it to the 3.  Of the time i was upfront i got the ball 8 times in the 2 or 3 games....I know that sucks, but I only had one shot blocked.  I am confident shooting...not so much passing.  So when i practice lately ive been working on passing lane with both my 1 and 2 guys.  Really working on fakes a lot too..

I am not trying to learn all the really high level of difficulty stuff.....K.I.S.S.  keep it simple stupid.....Basics are what everyone goes to when they struggle...so Im working on mastering and getting the basics down pat.  A unraceable wall....a stick that sticks all the time.....a good fake or two....and the ability to READ

[bbtuna]

wow, great stuff...I was hoping this would be helpful  and it looks to be something all of us and others, can use

I will give answers to this later but as you can assume by all my other posting, I have a ton of opinions/ideas on the subject

just a note to Chance...if you want to learn about how and when to use the stick series, you need to study gummerson (assuming you are using a moving series) ... I have a number of really good things he has written on the subject if you are interested...if you are, start a seperate thread on the approach to stick passing (only because there is a lot of info and it will clutter up this thread and not be easy for people to find in the future

[foosinaround69]

bbtuna...first off Great thread as others agree....I have always practiced so much that people would see me at place and ask me why I was playing by myself. I told them that if you want to be good you need to practice. I can tell you I USED to practice get this. ...more than six to eight hours a day(when not working)maybe more. I would work on my ball control. Moving the ball around the entire table enabling me to be able to put the ball anywhere I needed. Then I'd work on my passing. Doing a couple of different series ,so I could have a back up. I would work on each thing for hours at a time.

As for what I feel I play as ..I have no doubt I play as good as a pro or above..Now that's not to toot my own horn but I've put the hours in for over twenty yrs and I can't or havn't been able to go to major events to gain the points needed to be at the level I actually am. So when I have played at the lower levels people say "why are you playing at this level aren't you a pro ?" Thinking I'm sand bagging for some reason. So my goals are to be a promaster someday like everyone who takes this game as seriously as I do I know I have the physical abilities now it's the mental aspect of the game I need to work on
 
Sorry I had to go...So I'm back to finish up...Anyway I have always been one to do a hell of alot of practicing.  Honestly, I've spent thousands in practice money I'm sure. A guy named Gary Connley taught me my five row. I spent hundreds of hours just doing five row wars with him. You get it clean you get it back, otherwise you fight for control!! It helped me to be focused cause he at first would always stop me. Then little by little I started to pass  right by him and I knew I was going to be ok. It was all worth it in the end. What I could use time on is five row defense Mine sucks. That is my true weakness so if anyone has some suggestions I'm open to them all!!!! I just love the game and what it does for me that's all. I've been blessed to be able to teach others and be taught as well. You can always learn more. I hope this game is played long after I'm gone. I'm greatful to places like this board and people who play this game with same passion as I have for the sport of foosball!!!!! Long live FOOSBALL
  Happy Foosinaround!!!!

[bbtuna]

Chance, thanks...well, here is first part of my answer to my own questions

What are your goals?
My foosball life is easily divided into 2 sections. 

First was 1975 or 1976 through about 1980-81...there was about 4 years of serious attention to foosball and when I finally crossed the line and decided to become serious, I was extreme.  I didn’t miss a day of foosball for over 3 years and at the heart of it, my friends and I would play all day (table was at my house) and when they left at 12 to 1pm, I would begin my practice and go for 7-8 hours.  45 min warm up in the back, 2 hours 5 bar, 2 hours push pin, 2 hours pull pin…remaining time on various transition and singles stuff and weight lifting...

I grew up with a desire, which increased the older I got, to be the best in the World at something.  Despite my current embarrassing fatness, I was quite a fine athlete when I was young.  4.4 second 40 yard dash, 20 feet broad jump, 9 feet standing broad jump, serious vertical leap, very fast hands, etc.  I didn’t start organized sports until my junior year in high-school and I expected in my senior year to be in the top 5 in my state (IL) in track (long jump) and wrestling (155lbs) and I thought for sure I would be at least all state if not better in football but I injured myself 3 games into my senior season and all my dreams of college and professional football were gone.

So, when foosball entered my life, I saw a chance to push myself to places I had never been and saw I had a chance to get to the top since this was such a young sport…I wanted to reinvent the game, or define it…I won’t go into more detail now but lets just say I was crazed

Then I stopped in 1980-1981 – lots of factors, won’t bore you all (I know, too late)

Then about 22 or 23 years later in Oct 2003, I got bit by the bug again…I was amazed by how much I could still do and equally amazed at things I couldn’t do….

It is in my nature to want to always improve and to push my limits…it doesn’t matter to me that I am 50 years old, I still want to be the best…I constantly dream of what it would be like if I could dedicate full-time to defining my game and goals like I did when I was young…of course that is not possible any more so I have refined my goals somewhat

I want to win Rookie and/or Semi-pro Worlds…I keep working toward that even though I have no money to travel which is an essential element to maturing my game

I still dream to get ranked at least in the top 20 and think about breaking through to the point of winning a “major” … setting history as the oldest person to ever win a major and the first person in 25-30 years to win a major shooting a backpin and probably only on Tornado since the changes on the table we play on today (what 20 years or so?)

How often do you practice?
I practice every day except when I occasionally take a day off or so to let some things settle in

[bbtuna]

How long do you practice?
Well, this has been a declining number…I started out pushing for at least 2 hours a day and did pretty well toward that end for the first couple of years coming back.  However, I am heavy enough that my feet wear out long before my mind and body do.  This has impacted my practice and play…very sad, very bad situation. 

I am fighting for my life right now trying to change my food life-style forever

I know, I would already be at pro-master level right now if I had been thin when I started because I would have pushed for 3+ hours a day and I would have tried to work in a 3-5 hour workout(s) on weekends

Even so, I think I have made real strides and think I am an extremely competitive player on any level except the best pro-masters but even that will change by the end of this year


What kind of things do you do during practice and what have you found most helpful and least helpful?
I am not going to go into much detail about this right now because this is already way too long but I will share on another post or thread some time in the not to distant future.


What level player do others think you are and do you agree?
Well, Kent Rhodes once said that he thought I was “the best no-points player in the World” … Kent doesn’t throw compliments around often and he was serious - this was a year and a half ago and I am much better now…with that said, I think he was being more than generous, I really appeciate the compliment but I am far from that…I was very competitive at that time with the best Rookies and Semi-pros (and there are a lot of very very good ones) but my game has improved considerablely over the last 16 months or so…as a general rule, I play better against better players, players who I can count on to do things…the trouble with lower level players is their unpredictability (for you and them)

[bbtuna]

With this in mind, how much time do you spend on ball control?
I brought this up because this has been THE most significant mistake I have made during my foosball careers…first time around I spent almost no time practicing ball control (except back pin dribbling) and it seriously retarded my development

Second time around, I had a totally different mind about this and knew it was the key to greatness…so, I would do stuff and spent a fair amount of time mixing in ball control to my practice but I never totally dedicated myself to it

Last year, I dedicated myself to 5 bar almost exclusively for literally 12 months and it made a difference and I got unprovoked feedback telling me so but I still didn’t commit to ball control…even though, I believe it is the most important thing in foosball (physically)

However, this year, starting in Oct 07, I started dedicating myself to ball control and if no other goal ever comes to be for me, I plan on having ball control as good as it can get…my passing and shooting can be maintained with minimal work and I am trusting my body to remember what it needs to (so far so good) but what I try and do now is get in at least a hour a day and every time I step up to the table, I am determined to practice ball control that entire time…

it is hard, because I love to pass and shoot but it is amazing all the benefits you reap from ball control:
•   Pick up and keep more balls during play and possession is 9/10 of the law
•   Improves current execution of everything you do
•   Cuts your learning curve for new offense or refining existing skills by exponential amounts…the better the ball control gets, the shorter the curve
•   Improve your confidence when in serious competition
•   It will improve you fun time pick up games by heaps

[bbtuna]

If you do ball control practice, what kind of things do you do?
Absolutely everything I can think of…basic stuff like tic tacks (every creative move I can think of), weaves, pins, and inline smooth throws from one man to another (this is much harder than it looks to be able to throw the ball from one man to another (on the same rod) and catch and follow it to a stop without letting the ball tap tap tap on the man…this means the second man needs to be able to get right up next to the ball, even touch it, but move at the same speed and you slow it down with a cushion…that is terribly said but hopefully you get the idea

Back and forth from goalie to 2, 5, and 3 rods (all men), from 2 rod to 5r to 3r, from 5r to 3r…off the back wall from 5r and 3r with either hand and 5 man right hand, right hand pick up on the 3 rod – lots of 3 bar off the back wall stuff

Wild hard hit shots from goal practicing trapping them in my goal area and not letting them in the corners or off my wing men

Circles – ever seen Fred do his shot where he circles the ball (either direction) Jim Stevens coined it the “helicopter” and then in the middle of those circles with no changes in motion he picks up the ball and slams it home either direction…I have played with it, I have a poor man’s version but I was blown away at how hard I found it just to do the circling…he also does a "half-helicopter" where he goes over the top and dips to the other side and back again … very fast, very smooth, and again, shoots with no change slam bam thank you man

I have worked on circles front pin, no pin, back pin to strengthen my wrists, improve coordination, and extend my flexibility … this alone has gained me a number of snags on loose balls – by the way, think it is hard with the right hand, try that with the left hand ball on the 5 bar where there is less room to float around the ball

Last night I got a brainstorm and this morning before leaving for work I tried it out…set up a ball in back pin and one in front pin and then do figure 8’s around them in both directions

Then there is ball caressing…I read Todd Loffredo talking about this…moving around the ball, kind of like circles except you try and keep in contact with the ball and push it this way and that and still keep control

Off the side wall, goalie wall with the back side of your man (pretty hard with the left hand) – spin stuff – as an example, pull the ball down toward you like on the 5 near wall, second guy to first guy (52 to 51) and then spin the man over (360) and strike the ball as a lane, wall, or uphill…or tic tack ball from one 3 man to another and again a 360 spin and catch it before ball gets to the next man and still retain control and continue with your tic tack

…anything you can think of, anything that gives you more and more familiarity with the ball in as many positions as possible and gives you as much strength, confidence, and “control” as possible

my goal is 100% control, do anything I want, any time I want without fear of losing the ball…long, long, long way to go but on the road at least

[bbtuna]

TODD LOFFREDO ON PRACTICE PART 1

Its not the amount of time as much as it is the quality of practice.  For example. When I practice my pullshot for the worlds.. I practice with a tight grip because I know when I get under pressure that my grip will get tight just from the stress of getting amped up or nervous. Then when I am in a finals and get what I call the death grip, it doesn’t feel so foreign to me and that turns the abundant energy into comfortable speed instead of a chokey odd feel that is hard to foresee for a lot of inexperienced players. 
It doesn’t mean that I don’t choke, I do. It just moves the percentages in my favor.

I also practice very hard on not giving my shot away with any movements away from the rod and that is something that very few people really work on that is the difference between giving your shot away and not giving it away.

I practice new philosophies in DYP’s to put them to the test and to get a comfort zone with them.. I practice ball control very often.  As many different ways as I can think of.  But when I practice for the years biggest tournament, I know what I am going to do and exactly what to practice. The rest of the year is trial and error of what to throw away and what to keep for that tournament.

I think about things and question the reasoning for everything so that I can verify my beliefs in what I do and what I don’t do.  I don’t study tapes very often.  I talk to people a lot and listen. And most important of all. I watch what is working on tour and have a need inside to understand why it works and then learn it. I rarely receive pointers anymore unfortunately.  My peers tend to stay away from telling me anything which bothers me at times but I understand it also.

I do give advice to people I beat often even though they think its crud sometimes.  But I try to do what’s best for this game (most of the time).  Not always, I’m not a saint.  I have received good advice from my partners in the past and I ask loads of questions which I know they get sick of. 

I love criticism when it is logically engaged.  Playing hard as you can is great practice, but most people don’t play against their friends or peers with that kind of intensity – it is however, probably your best testing ground.  Its just hard to accept the frustrations of getting beat by a personal friend on a daily basis. But its the stuff champions are made of.  That is Tommy Adkinson’s best quality in my mind, he always wants to win even for fun and it shows in his game when the pressure is on. 

All this and more is involved in practicing and honestly trying to improve.  The answer to your questions are not simple nor easy. Eventually with sincere hard effort it can seem easy.   But that is where discipline and effort play a huge role. There are a lot of things that I know about this game that I forget consciously because they have become second nature and its only when I sit down and play against someone and ask them, why don’t you try this? that I understand its because they cant or have never tried it.

I believe in having more than one game because I have never found one game that beats all of the people all of the time. The key is to know when to change and adjust and having a lot of depth to make changes from.  Much like a bench on a basketball team. When to change is still a rotating decision constantly changing as peoples games change, and most likely this will be an evolving philosophy as the game evolves…hope this helps somewhat... Godbless LordPull