Topic: toss speed on pull shot

[gitablok]

Okay, that sucked. Had a lot of good stuff written but got disconnected so I lost it. I'll repost later.

[TSR_Brad]

And Ice... don't forget about our boxer analogy. Relaxed until the point of "contact".

[bbtuna]

okay, i will see if I can get my overlong post in before ICE gets his overlong post in

the defense you describe is a called, as mentioned already, a "race" and it is in "standard" since the goalie is leading out

in a perfect world, the perfect race can block the entire goal but we don't live in a perfect world

first off, I mentioned this in the previous post and ICE has as well but not directly related to a specific defense...however, nothing illustrates more the importance of no body movement, or other give aways, prior to the beginning of your shot so that, the first thing that moves is your hand

light grip, comfortable stance, shoulder acting as pivot..smooth, invisible start...if you can start with no motion, tics, grunts, or anything else that may signal you are about to start, then the defense, regardless of how fast they are, can not begin reacting until after you are already into your stroke...the entire stoke takes less than a second so even if they are "faster" than you, you have made up a lot of ground.  Imagine 2 world class sprinters and they are going to race...they are only going to go 7 yards, one guy gets to start one yard ahead of the other (so he only has to go 6 yards)  but he can't move until the guy going 7 yards starts...

Second, learn to wait a while on the rod, all coiled up like you are about to explode at any minute...this serves to try and get the other person to be a little jumpy

Third, throw in a fake or two every second or third possesion (don't do this every time or it won't mean as much and it is hard to recover from a fake and shoot smoothly like we have been talking about)

Forth, improve your ball control so you can roll the ball over into pull position each time as deep as possible, with your 3 bar all the way on the wall (make him have to race futher) (also, not now, but you will want to be able to learn a "rolling pull" where you shoot your pull while you are rolling it to set it up...to do this well takes some explanation and work)

Fifth, as already metioned, learn the "spray long" where you pull to the big dot and spray the ball to the long hole

Sixth, learn to hit a really tight good straight...this is as important as your long...even if he blocks it, it will force him to hestitate at the beginning because he will be afraid the straight will get in behind him...there are a number of straight moves but there is a simple very effective straight
*  Stand dead still
*  Imagine in your head long long long like you are going to try and explode to the long hole (but stay loose as always)
*  Then, leaving your man on the wall to start, suddenly, lift your man with a high backswing and without any hesitation, as quick as it went up, bring the man down over the ball for the straight shot

again, you have to be willing to shoot this even if he blocks it...don't worry at all if he is in the way or not...you are not looking for him to be in a particular spot in this case because he is "racing"...just make the start as smooth and as invisible as you can...trust the up and down motion to get the person started...remember, do not hesitated at any point during this up and down motion...as fast up as it is down...this motion, when done right, will make the best goalies jump at least some of the time

there is great value to shooting the straight with a pull shot...it always make the defense have to think about the short side and will make them second guess going out to long (or where ever depending on the defense)...again, even if it is blocked...the important thing is to execute it well

Last for now, vary your timing...new players traditionally won't sit on a ball for more than a few seconds and you need to learn to use the clock to your advantage...you have 15 seconds on that rod (this includes set up time which is another reason you want to improve your ball control so you don't eat up 7 to 10 seconds on set up)...but assuming you can get it set up pretty quickly (lets say 5 seconds) you then have 10 seconds to shoot...be willing to go to 10 or be willing to go on 1/2 second and everything in between...try and vary even your own clock...so if you are counting to yourself 1 thousand 1 etc, you don't always want to go on the beginning of your count, learn to start at odd times so as to make your rythm and timing unpredictable...

NOTE:  I say "odd times" but this is strickly a personal thing because it is your own clock that is ticking inside of you that no one else can hear.  However, the vast majority of people have a rythm to their life, their clock works a certain way, their seconds are always a certain time, they are comfortable with going on certain times, etc...so, what you want to do is learn to start your shots at all different times so that you become unpredictable...the more unpredicatable you are the jumpier the goalie will get, especially a racing goalie

[bbtuna]

another note...you say the goalie moves both men together and you can beat the first man but not the goalie....can you tell, does the goalie jump out faster than the 2 rod so that he sort of lags the 2 rods while blasting the goalie rod out to the long hole or does he move them both exactly together in tight formation all the way accross the front of the goal?

very few goalies will keep them in tight formation and it makes a difference because if he has a tendency to jump the gaolie ahead, there can be a 2 hole split open...this will be even more true if you can execute a good straigt because the goalie will hesitate a little to leave home while the goalie, which feels totally unthreatened, will fling itself out to the long hole

the split needs to be shot just like a squared off long only you are going to sqaure (or even cut back a little) the ball after only moving it about a 1 1/2 -1 3/4 of a ball lenght

[foosinaround69]

Yes, the straight will open the goal....Either a moving straight or a lift straight...even if they block it ..Shoot it anyway...It will keep them honest so to speak..if you're not a threat for it ..they will leave it...so make an attempt to shoot the straight and he'll stop racing you as good as he does...Good luck...try it!!!!

[clhereistian]

Thanks for all your help. I have plenty of things to try now.

[chance37]

last big draw I played there were some very very good pull shots.....My first match i blocked the **** out of a master.....Pat myself on the back..they won, but he had to switch from his pull to pull and push kicks which caught me a few times....Then our second match I did the saem with another good pull shot...we won....third match I had been blocking middle and longs all night....the guys we played knew I could stuff his rollover..and he went to pulling I said no prob....he dinked my ass 3 times.....what a swift kick inthe nuts...but i learned a lesson from it....the straight will open the doors for the long ALL DAY and NIGHT

[bbtuna]

i remember my first tournament after coming back and I was playing goalie with  , no change that, for Scott Liley and we were up to play Ron Nevois who has a superb pull...as we started, Scott, who plays with him all the time, said, "Whatever you do, don't give him straight on the first shot, he always shoots straight on the first shot" ... I was determined to stay home and block the straight and bbbam he hits a straight...then he torched me like 9 blistering long pulls in a row - now, I was totally lost and had no feel at all for what I was doing at the time but he definately put me in my place

since then, i have become a student of the striaght both from a goalie perspective as well as from a shooters perspective

IMO the 3 most under under-utilized shots for pull shooters, Straight, 2 hole, and 4 hole

if you can make the goalie have to cover a tight straight hole, this means they have to cover holes 2-4 with one guy...think about it!

[clhereistian]

I can hit the straight shot most of the time. But sometimes it bounces off the wall to the left of the goal. What do you guys think my problem is? Am I supposed to come straight down on the ball? That's what I've been trying to do.

[bbtuna]

you can hit the wall by not hitting the ball flush...either a little short of flush, which oddly enough makes the ball hit the wall or if you go too far and angle back

[gitablok]

Iceman, thanks for all your help! There is one thing I don't understand, and that is the stance. Is it my right foot that I keep in place after finding my distance? You said to turn my body at a 45 degree angle. If I keep my right foot in place, that means  I step closer to the table with my left foot. Is that right?

Wow, sorry guys. First I lose a post with a lot of good stuff and then I work the next three days 12 hours at a time. I'll try to remember what I posted.

Okay, for the most part, you are correct. Use your left foot as your comfort or balance foot. Your back foot should move only parallel to the table once you have found your distance. Remember, don't be afraid to experiment with the stance until you find what works best for you. When you find that sweet spot, it will be a light bulb moment which means you will have found the leverage point of your body in relation to the table. The best way to find out if you have a good stance or not is to get in your stance as if you are about to shoot. Then pull the rod to the wall as if you just shot a long staying down in your stance. Now, let go of the handles and stand up. If you have good balance, you have a good stance. If you had to catch yourself from falling, your stance is bad.

Now, your elbow. Remember what I said about parallel energy to the rod. Your hand, elbow, and shoulder should all form a straight line with the rod. In other words, your arm will become an extension of the rod in the table. Your arm becomes the "connecting rod" if you will to the table or engine to generate power and torque. My best analogy would be the connecting rod on the wheels of an old steam locomotive. Your pull stroke should look like the return stroke of the rod that makes all the wheels turn at once, straight back. Have a friend stand behind you in your stance. Now pull the rod all the way to the bumper. Have your friend place the palm of his hand on your elbow maybe moving in just slightly. Now shoot some long pulls. If you stroke correctly, your elbow will contact your friends palm every time. If it does not, that means you are directing energy away from the parallel motion of the rod which affect the speed and power you are trying to achieve. Your elbow acts as the part of a piston that is connected to the crankshaft. So yes for the most part the body stays quiet or still through most of the shot other than a little hip twist in the 7 stroke in the release. As someone else has stated, a lot of what I am saying will help you with a smooth stroke but more importantly a good takeoff because of no wasted energy and body movement tells when you are about to shoot.

One more thing, Brad brought up the boxing analogy. This is something we tell the people overseas a lot when explaining the mechanics of a pull. Speed is achieved by the relaxing of muscle, not the contracting of it. The hardest hitters in boxing, karate, etc. are the ones who stay relaxed in their movements until the point of contact. Same with the pull stroke. Stay loose during the stoke, tense just "after" the release.


Hope that helps, anymore questions just ask.

ICEMAN

[gitablok]

I can hit the straight shot most of the time. But sometimes it bounces off the wall to the left of the goal. What do you guys think my problem is? Am I supposed to come straight down on the ball? That's what I've been trying to do.

Okay, time for a Physics lesson.

When two objects interact with each other, a lot of things happen, including some that are not visible to the human eye.

One of those things is FRICTION.

Just like foosball, weird things happen on a pool table when two balls hit each other because of friction. For example, cue ball in center of table, object ball near a pocket but not straight in so you have to cut it in. Did you realize that when the cue ball strikes the object ball on a cut shot the object ball actually first moves in the direction, on a tangent, in the same direction the cue ball is headed then it moves in the direction of the cut. This is because of friction. In other words, when the two balls meet, the friction of the first ball rubs the second in the direction of the initial force be it only for a just a spiit second. After the friction wears off, then the ball heads in its desired cut angle path. Sounds crazy but this happens on every ball that is cut into a pocket.

THE CONNECTION.

Now, you have the ball set up to shoot a pull, the straight opens, you decide to shoot it. You pick up the guy, come around the back of the ball, then go back to the ball to power in the straight, but the ball, ever so slightly hits the far wall. Why? Friction.

Even though you are swinging straight down on the ball, the motion of you going back to the ball exerts friction which pushes the ball towards the wall first then toward the goal. The result, posting out the straight.

THE FIX.

The fix is gonna require that you trust me on this one. In pool, the way you overcome frictional forces is directional spin. When you spin the cue ball one direction to hit the object ball, the object ball spins immediately in the opposite direction which overcomes the frictional force. The drill I will explain will teach you to hit the tightest straigt possible.

Push the two rod to the near wall and set up to shoot a pull. The straight that exist in this position is what I call the dead man straight.
Now the trick is to use a spray finish stroke as soon as you hit the ball. So the rod should finish toward the wall nearest you. What this does is put directional spin on the ball to make it go straight instead of angling back to overcome the frictional force of the man going back to the ball. Practice shooting this straight with the two rod against the far wall with that stroke and you will soon be hitting some down right plain ole nasty straights.

Next......

ICEMAN

[foosinaround69]

Ice,

Couldn't of said it better myself. ..Hey, I was gonna say that....LOL...
I love going back to that hole!!! Well, I guess you could say to that hole...I like to move ever so slightly and go back to the straight hole...It works great!!!!

[clhereistian]

Iceman, that works great on the straight. I never would have tried it like that. Thanks!

[gitablok]

I've got one more technique for you guys to try, let you know tomorrow if I have time.