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toss speed on pull shot

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2008, 10:28:52 PM »
Okay, my last installment of pull fundamentals. I just hope you guys are prepared to be screwed....hehe.

This technique is the last piece of the puzzle which allows you to make the table work for you while doing a smooth and powerful stroke. It will also make the shot faster, not because of lateral speed, but because of compaction of the release. Less release time equals faster shot. It will also disguise your release point, in other words, the straight looks like the long, the long looks like the three quater, the second dot looks like the big dot and so on. It is also what has kept me from hurting my wrist even on a hard stub when shooting a pull.

THE SCREWDRIVER.

One of the most common mistakes I see people making in the release motion is motorcycling the release. This usually happens when you try to overhit or cram the ball into the goal. What happens is the man comes up to far off the ball, the elbow moves too far left or right, all of which slow the speed of the rod because of energy exerted is not parallel to the rod. One of the worst things that happens is wrist mis-alignment. This is usually why injuries occur. Put your wrist or elbow for that matter, in a bind and then put pressure on it and you're asking for trouble.

The screwdriver technique fixes all of the above problems. It is the final piece of the puzzle that will help you keep your wrist, elbow, and shoulder all in alignment in perfoming an effortless stroke. It also allows for a short, quick, compact, and accurate release free from injury.

Okay, now imagine when you hold the handle in your hand, you are holding a screwdriver. In the 7 stroke, when you begin the motion of squaring the ball, don't motorcycle the handle, screwdriver the handle back into the table as if you were turning a screw. This allows you to continue to direct parallel energy at the rod which allows you to tap into the energy stored in the table. Remember, become one with the table.

If ever you get to see one of the great pull shooters in person or that person who you know has a sweet stroke. Stand directly across from them or directly behind them and watch their hand on the handle in the squaring portion of the stroke. Looks like they are using a screwdriver right? That's how you make the table work for you.

That's about it what I know about a pull shot. Hopefully what I have given you will help you develop a good shot and keep you free of injury.

Any more questions just ask and I'll try to answer.


ICEMAN


Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2008, 09:27:10 PM »
So clhereistian and rradjabi, how are those pull shots coming?

ICEMAN.

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2008, 10:13:19 AM »
It's coming along. I'm getting the hang of splitting the guys, which is a big help. The long pull shot is almost always open. Sometimes everyone including the goalie knows I am going long, and I can still beat them to the hole.   The problem is that when I do a really fast long pull, I spray a couple of inches to the right. I haven't quite got the hang of a good square off on the long pull. I do fine on the short, middle and 3/4 pulls, but something about the long screws me up.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 10:17:47 AM by clhereistian »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2008, 10:27:18 AM »
you don't trust your body to do it...my guess is you have doubt in  your mind and don't think you can pull that off with a long stroke....if you are squaring off shorter shots but spray the long there could be a number of mechanical problems but I am guessing a good deal of it is mental...you have to believe you can still be as accurate with a long stroke as with a short one...work on that

then, mechanically, there could be a number of reasons why you spray but bottom line is that you aren't getting your man around the ball...i was taught and so think of the pull shot as a pull, lift (man starting back stroke), and follow through (down part of stroke) sort of thing...but, with the long pull, you need to start the "lift" of the man at the same time as you start the pull...if I am spraying, it is because I am starting the lift too late and I dont have enough time to get around the ball before I run out of room

but, without seeing your shot, it is hard to make a real assesment...find someone you know who you trust to really understand the pull stroke and ask them to watch you closley for a while and make an evaluation or video tape yourself and post it where ICE and others can watch you and see what is going on...it is like trying to improve someones golf stroke without seeing it..there are some basics you can talk about but you can't really tweak their stroke without a visual reference
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 10:29:33 AM by bbtuna »

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2008, 11:04:17 AM »
i think something that most people too often do is rush the long....When i slow down the pull a lil bit and make sure im deadman the shot works.....if you try to pull too damn fast it makes it tough.....once the slower dead pull starts working then focuse on lightning fast....but you dont have to be lightning fast as many people on here will tell you there are several greats that werent blazing....

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2008, 11:56:52 PM »
I just had to post after a newfound revelation.  I say revelation because its like a lightbulb that goes off and it all makes sense. By the way there's alot of great advice in this thread and I just wanted to thank everyone for making it a very interesting read.=)

I've started learning the snake shot about 3 weeks ago and I have got to the point where I feel fairly comfortable with the shot during a competitive game.  Anyway my competitive partner set up his defense  in such a way that that it forced me to shoot either a split shot or 5hole.

So I'm like ok.... I just got to learn to do splits better and I'll ace him everytime.  So i'm practicing splits (which to me is the hardest shot to hit with a snake) and I'm like... hmm I should try to do a recoil.  The recoil never made sense to me (probably because i'm new to the shot, and its sooo counter intuitive).  After all I could make longs without it fairly consistantly so I ignored it.  But this time i decided to try it again, and on top of that I decided to do a split using only a recoil.  I first taught myself to do splits by visualizing the "outer 25% of the foot hitting the ball" and this worked, but then I tossed that out and tried the recoil....

*light bulb*

ITS THE RECOIL THAT MAKES YOUR SHOT LIGHTNING FAST (I thought recoils were only good for squaring off >.<)

I finally got the recoil to work!  Not only that I realized it makes your shots seem like they are going twice as fast.  I noticed even when i missed the splits my shots were much faster and even missed shots would hit the "5 hole".  The key with learning the recoil involves 2 things:
1.  Understanding and feeling very comfortable with all the shots of the snake
2.  Visualizing the whip motion of the recoil and practicing it until it makes it feels right.

Anyway I just thought I would share this as it definitely makes my shots significantly faster where practicing rolling the ball fast did nothing for me really.

My theory: I think speed is mostly mental and not physical.  After all, you have to pull off a series of very "touchy" motions in a fluid shot and kinda coach your self through a lot of different steps.  Well when you throw the recoil in, you just added another complicated motion but you still gotta do it in the same amount of time, therefore you gotta think faster to complete it.  To do a recoil such that it splits the goalie and 2 man you just gotta do it fast and your mind speeds up the shot for you.
Once I got the recoil, the shot just seemed to make much more sense. 

Anyway I realize your interested in the pull shot and not the snake but I know that you can recoil or "square off" using either shot and the same theory should apply to both.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 12:33:59 AM by askirojaro »

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2008, 12:50:41 AM »
Robert Uyeyama on pullshot recoil:

Quote
Recoil, the most important thing: What is "recoil", and why is it so important? The idea is to train your arm motion to be the smoothest and fastest "whip"-motion, like the end of the "J". The reason is to improve your accuracy by squaring your shot off when you shoot a very long pull as fast as you can. This is what happens to the foosball table: as you shoot the ball after pulling it, the rod is PUSHED so that your center man ends up near the center dot at the end of your motion.

How to develop recoil: Your entire arm should feel like a whip and the "crack" of the whip (at your elbow and wrist) coincides with the shooting of the ball. This means you begin the reversal of the whip-motion before you shoot, i.e. as you are pulling. You can think of this motion as a shoulder & elbow PUSH which you begin as soon as your wrist begins the PULL motion. This push motion will travel down your arm like a whip and reach your wrist, which will then also begin moving in the push direction. This is when you should shoot the ball; this is also the "cracking of the whip." Learn to time the entire shot motion so that the ball and man are in the correct position to shoot your long shot just as your wrist snaps the recoil. Thinking of violently "throwing" your elbow in the push direction as you simultaneously pull with your wrist may help-- other players think of lifting the elbow outwards so that it has leverage to snap the arm forward, somewhat like a karate punch.

The other important part of recoil is body positioning. You must be standing so that your arm is free to snap back and forth smoothly. Hold the 3-rod handle and try the recoiling whip-motion back and forth repeatedly, without a ball and not even pretending to shoot. The motion should not be awkward and should be very fluid even if you continue to whip back and forth. Find a good stance so that your arm is free to do this. You can experiment with standing lower, or more to your left, and make sure your right shoulder is not too close to the table.

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2008, 02:01:43 PM »
good post.  a slow toss is EASILY raced.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2008, 08:13:25 PM »
Nice interesting pull shot theories.

Down here in Florida, pullshooters try to emulate Horton and Yore, among many other pullshooters that have been shooting their screaming shots without stressing their bodies after 23+ years on the PROMASTER and OPEN events and many many titles.

Clue#1: A screaming pullkick seems to travel more than twice the distance in the same time without needing any additional "Recoil".  And having even more lateral speed!  Of course any two-player shot is harder to master and time.

Clue#2: The best pullshots seem to have a visible, "slow" beginning, but seem to disappear after the first half inch of travel or so.

Pros and ProMasters who have survived over two decades of intense open competition shooting use hardly any "Recoil".  They predominantly use extremely smooth, accelerating "Pitch" or "Toss" takeoffs on the pull.  The effectiveness of this combination of longitudinal and lateral spin can be easily proven.  Prove it to yourself by having a friend at a bowling alley throw a ball while you stop it within the first 6 feet past the foul line, and then again by putting a hand on it anywhere 3/4's or further, down the lane.

Longitudinal roll, or siderolling speed, uses acceleration to get to much higher lateral speed than any caveman "yank" without any "tell" or indication at the "Pitch" or takeoff.  This leads to the optical illusion of a pulled ball being visible the first half inch or so, then disappearing, leaving no obvious "jerk" or other "tell" for a goalkeeper, especially a racer, to use as a signal to jump to the 3/4 or long.     If a pullshooter has ever had the problem of the pulled ball outrunning his/her 3bar player at the release or firing point, leading to a chip or edge shot to the corner, or a stub, then you know how powerful the lateral acceleration speed can be.  But duffers usually try to "punch" or recoil the shot into a square, instead of using physics and just timing their player to touch and follow the ball correctly.

Lateral spin, parallel to the surface, accelerates its spin even faster, and with timing practice, is used to counter the pulled ball's momemtum trying to force itself away from the goal at release.  This is comparable to a basketball layup shot straight up to either side of the basket, using lateral spin to "kick" the ball into the basket.  Of course, to get the full effect of the "kick" the shot must be stroked to stay on the ball and actually follow it at release.  This is the real reason for the return motion seen on a correct pullshot, and NOT a brute return motion "punch" which sends most of those who practice this into retirement, or to switch to a rollover.

Starting with ball closer to directly under the rod gives more lateral spin, allowing much harder striking of the ball for 3/4 and long and beyond deadbar releases.  Starting with the ball further back has the lower tip of the 3bar player's foot closer to the middle of the side of the ball, and results in a mix with more longitudinal spin and acceleration for lateral speed.  This use of angular acceleration to impart both higher lateral speed and the squaring "kick" takes advantage of physics without stressing any portion of the hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder or any part of the physique with any caveman "Recoil".  Most pullshooters find a good medium between longitudinal and lateral spin at takeoff.  With more practice, one can even easily shoot pulls beyond the deadbar, and repeat it for hours without your arm falling off.  We play that "dollah-dollah" game with the NEAR 2bar set at half a man past deadbar.  It separates the correct pullshooters from the cavemen who will eventually switch to a snake after they see their orthopedic surgeon.

In addition, of course the shooter should find a relaxed position which allows minimal energy and comfortable shifting of body weight and arm during the shot.  But the cranking caveman pullshooters have been so easily outlasted by snakeshooters who stand whichever way they want, comfortably and all week during an Open tournament!  I dare any, especially Robert Uyeyama to use his recoil shot and compare it to Todd Loffredo's monster superlong pull while standing on one foot with the other leg crossed.  There will always be racers who can beat any yanking pull shot with hardly any spin and only able to shoot a square at best.  And wasting all that energy pounding to square that ball, for nothing.

I've seen Todd, played back for Tom Yore, against R. Wight, Mike Cody, Beine, and seen Murray, and Tracy Mc, and there is none of that "Recoil" or "Whip" crap.  Most are comfortable wrist initiated pulls with a hammer grip that hardly move the elbow more than 2 inches or so!  Watch Ezekiel "Zeke"'s demo on YouTube on pullshots, and check for any monster "Recoil" or "Whip" motion.  The old 1980's pullshot technique has done more harm and caused more retirements than anything else.  I thank the emergence of the snake for the alternative for all these great players to continue, and the emergence of the Euro to show that correct technique with practice and dedication is what matters, not the nature of the shot.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 08:22:29 PM by foozkillah »

Offline foozkillah

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2008, 08:31:44 PM »
As an addendum,

Johnny Horton can and does do the "Whip" motion, but that's for show, right before he tosses you his partner's car keys and says, "Park it!".

I've seen him in Tampa warm up many a time, and his monstrous pull is just as compact and as fluid as any of the other proM's i've seen, and he only adds the flair for style, I think.  Or perhaps he has to, in keeping with his professional showmanship.  His deadly pull can be seen on "1000 Miles to Brokeland" with Brendan against Terry and Tommy.  And yes, very very smooth, with the characteristic slow takeoff and then its all done with a Bam!

Offline MR.STEVE

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2008, 01:35:00 AM »
My pull is slow im good at reading D, so it gets forwards mad at there goalie saying they could race me and cut me off ,no way there is always a hole to hit, my pull is pretty much my foot never leaving the ball until it strokes in no recoil that just wastes energy I am no exspert but the less motion the better ,like I said I am slow to most people, learn to hit the holes speed will come.Try not to over think this shot practice correct ,reread icemans info ....

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2008, 12:09:28 PM »
Is this a 7 stroke in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzN-GOqM_RI

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2008, 08:59:46 PM »
Something I've noticed on the Tornado tables is that you can shoot some really fast shots while being totally relaxed and going at 75% speed or tension. Or in other words, being very relaxed. I watched a martial arts master pluck a coin from a palm of a student. His movement didn't seem in a hurry at all yet he got it every time. The key was how he started so relaxed that it was plucked before the student even knew he was moving. It's something like that, finesse, smooth easy beginning ending in the power that the beginning naturally increased to a thing of beauty. Harsh hard movements require exact repetition while smooth controlled movements are within our ability to compensate albeit sub-consciously.  I used to think that this game was about being faster than anyone I played, a natural short sighted view of a young man. I'm seeing now how fluidity of motion can really shape your game in a good way. If they are beating you long, how sweet is it to pull as long only to back angle into a wide open tweener? Going balls out rules this out for the most part. Control, at 75 to 80% speed is really a good way to play. Try that pull totally relaxed and just moderate in your power expenditure. When you find it you will understand. When you use it in competition, you will feel great confidence. Life is good.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2008, 10:39:28 PM »
My pull is slow im good at reading D, so it gets forwards mad at there goalie saying they could race me and cut me off ,no way there is always a hole to hit, my pull is pretty much my foot never leaving the ball until it strokes in no recoil that just wastes energy. I am no expert but the less motion the better, like I said, I am slow to most people, learn to hit the holes speed will come.Try not to over think this shot practice correct ,reread icemans info ....

That is so true.  I relearned my pull years ago, after going to see Horton and Yore in Tampa. And Loffredo too, who was spending a ton of time there.  Started by setting the defense in three basic sets: standard with the straight open, standard with the goalkeeper's near 2bar between his 2nd and 3rd dots (for a "short 7" or "pump" stroke), and crossover with the deadbar open.  Didn't shoot faster and faster, just the same speed, training my fingers, wrist and forearm to remember remember remember the three strokes.  After a couple thousand relaxed shots, I was finally able to go and win a couple of locals easily with what seemed like a slow pull to me, but seemed to "freeze" the D.  No stress or strain, no need for Glucosamine-Chondroitin complex with MSM.

If you really watch Yore and Loffredo and TracyM, it seems during the pull that the surface "slides" under the bar, instead of the bar moving over it.  If your eyes were the camera, it was as if the camera was on the rod, with the floor beneath moving.  I'm now doing the same thing with a rollover, but with no shake or wiggle.  Smoothness is still the key, just a takeoff and shoot.

Re: toss speed on pull shot
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 05:13:19 PM »
It's called economy of motion.