Topic: Money for winning

[bbtuna]

1st, more cash for everyone would always be better but the problem is, there isn't enough cash to go around

2nd, it hurts the sport (in its present condition, because the lower rank payouts are high enough to keep people from wanting to move up and the Pro payouts (non-pro master) are so low know one wants to move to Pro...only a select few are genuinely capable of winning in Pro-master

so, the idea is to make lower ranks non-Pro or Amateur...like in other sports...make the money available in Pro so people attempt to plow their way through the Amateur ranks so they can get to where the money is

Amateur (our current lower rank - this includes me) needs to play foosball as a hobby where we get trophies, recognition, table time, and fun or we play "serious" and work hard to learn and move through ranks in which case we get all the same things the recreational player gets but we have a motive to keep moving...in both cases, the Amateur pays - the hobbiest pays to play and have fun (and they may learn and advance too) and the serious player plays to learn and advance (and they may have fun on the side)

the reason the current method has hurt things is because lower ranks, people who should be "Amateur" (as defined in most other sports in America) expect to make real money...some promoter(s) along the way thought the way to draw lower ranks, thus bankroll the sport, is to increase payouts...along with that thought or close on its heals was we will "bundle" and show a savings from buying ala carte and then include tons of events so people feel like they are getting their money's worth...oh, and wouldn't it be another great draw if the lower rank players could play with the legends?   I know, we will let lower rank players play in everything...that way they will feel like they are getting even more money and they won't be any real threat to the high rank players so they won't care...yea, thats the ticket

now we have conflicts at every turn, matches being called at 2am in the morning and again at 9am or 10am the next day, not nearly enough money to go around, no one wants to turn pro except the occasional shooting star for whom the Pro is a brief pause on their way to the top (Ryan Moore being the most recent example)...only young people with no life (no offense meant to them) and can live sleeping on someone's floor and eating a bag of Cheetos a day can play all the tournaments

[bbtuna]

Will,

you are illistrating the problem...see, you think of this sport as our money (our entry fees) verses their entry fees

you see it this way because that is the only way it has ever been for you...you may have heard or considered another way but you have never actually experienced another way becaue in foosball there is not other way

I am asking for people to try and see this differently...break out of the paradigm you have been in...the way it is now doesn't work so we can't continue using the same methods and expect different results

think of the sport as Amateur and Pro...Amateur plays to grow, get recognition, and/or for fun...the Pro plays to make money

think of the entry fees as money that pays for tournament you are attending (all the costs associated with it which includes but is not limited to payouts)...think of the entry fees as a cost for learning...think of the entry fee as fertilization for the overall game...think of the tournament costs overall as your chance to travel, have fun, and meet people

[TSR_Brad]

I'm going to lay out my "If I Were King" scenario for Professional Foosball. This'll be a bit scattershot, so try and follow along. And I haven't thought out ALL the details so feel free to offer ideas.

RATINGS
Retain the current RATING categories if you like, but
1) Rookie, henceforth known as Amateurs play for hardware only... Trophies, jackets or the occasional table. They have no RANKING.
2) Semi Pro will become Expert and may possibly play for some cash... perhaps entry fee amount times X. We can discuss this one.  SP also has no RANKING. (I haven't settled yet on how to determine when a player would become SP, but a mid-level rating is a must to clear out the Amateur rating.
3) Then of course, you have Pro. Only Pros have a RANKING, which is necessary for seeding purposes.

Ratings are based on $$'s won. (Money GOOD, points BAD!) This seems to be the primary concern of today's players... "What will it cost me and how much can I win?

RANKINGS
1) A ranking is given when a player achieves Pro Status. Pro Status is achieved when the player's winnings exceed a given dollar amount.
2) Only money that was won in OPEN events counts toward a player's status.

MONEY
Most (all?) entry fee money goes towards Open events. Prize money is then distributed deeeeep into the chart.

So... if players want to play but don't want to move up in rating, they can continue to compete in the lower events. As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a definite way to get a player from Amateur to Expert.

In brief, that's it. I fully admit I don't have all the details worked out but I can't think of EVERYTHING!!. I also admit that I am confident this would never fly with your average player.

Oh... I'd also require a dresscode! 

[bbtuna]

even with these changes, which I think in the long run would improve the health of the game, the motivation of the players moving up, and improve the tournament experience by almost totally eliminating conflicts...I have sat waiting for over 8 hours for a match to be called and it was 1:30am and then they decided no more matches tonight, see you at 9am when the doors open tormorrow

that is insane, it is worst than bush league...this is incompetence...in an attempt to please everyone, they (the historical they, no one in particular) have made everyone miserable

but anyway, even with these changes, the tournament game will never be right unless tournaments get money outside of entry fees

but even if there was big time sponsorship I would say, make Amateur (unpaid) and Pro (paid)

you can play in one or the other in doubles and singles but not both...you can play your rank and higher...you pick...singles (Pro or Amateur) or doubles (Pro or Amateur)

[bbtuna]

Brad, we are close...here is how what I proposed would have looked at Worlds with a 100k payout

Leave point system - Points in ()

$100,000

Amateur $10,000 in payouts (all in Expert)

Beginner (0-1150 points):
ribbons and packages

Novice (1151-1500):
trophies and packages

Expert (1501-2000) $10,000: (or semi-pro...almost pro)
Doubles $2500
Singles $7500

Amateur Women (0-2000):
Doubles and Singles –  Ribbon/medals - packages


Pro (90%) $90,000 in payouts

Pro (2001- 2400): $27,000
Doubles - $6,750
Singles – $20,250

Pro Master (2401 and up): $58,500
Doubles - $14,625
Singles - $43,875

Pro Women (2001— and up): $4,500
Doubles - Trophies
Singles - $4,500

[bbtuna]

more detail on tournament structure

2 main divisions – Amateur and Pro
•   Play up ranks but not the other way around
•   10% (Amateur) - 90% (Pro) split (trophy and medals come out of this figure)
•   Players can play one or the other but not both (this will eliminate most conflicts which is what causes tournaments to run so long/late)
•   Everything is ala carte and each event fee includes table/registration fee (so there is no separate fee)
•   You can buy a package – the package would include 2 main events (one singles, one doubles) and as many “Specialty Events” as you are eligible for
•   AmateurWomen…women can play in men’s events but not the other way around but they have to choose one or the other… ProWomen can play men or women events
•   Doubles starts 10am Sat and plays down to final 4 teams – semi-finals and finals Sunday start 10 am – doubles first, then singles
•   Singles start at round of 16 or at 4pm whichever comes first
•   No main event called past 10:15 pm

Specialty Events:
-   Not specific to Amateur or Pro
-   Trophies 1-3 place only (except Free DYP’s where only first place gets a trophy)
-   Specialty Events could include Goalie Wars, FSO, 4/4, 2 ball, SpeedBall, Free Style (ball control event) , BullEye (accuracy event), Aerial Wars, Up to 1 Free DYP per day, Pro-Mixed, etc
-   All players not still completing in main events (so there is no main event conflict) are auto registered for Specialty Events and Free DYP
-   If you go ala carte (no package) but want into the Specialty, Events would be $20-$50 each depending on tournament size and event popularity

[Daniel]

2nd, it hurts the sport (in its present condition, because the lower rank payouts are high enough to keep people from wanting to move up and the Pro

If you win cash in the lower events you will gain points and will move up if you want to or not.  I am not sure that making players want to trun Pro will grow the player base.  I would love it if you could make a good living playing foosball at the pro level but for this to happen we would have to have huge payouts compared to what we have now.  The only way to do this is to have more rookies not more pros.

[Will17]

Tuna,

I think you misinterprit what I am trying to say, I don't need to play to win money, it the entry fee is less than 20 bucks or whatever I don't have an issue, but you cant expect people to pay money without getting anything for it, thats supply and demand... I really do think that getting a lot of people in the amatuer events even if they aren't paying much to play and none of the money is going towards the payout is one way to get sponsors interested. Sponsors would pay to get advertising at big tournaments if enough people were registered for the amature event. all the sponsor money SHOULD go to the pro players because they are the ones earning it. People don't want to watch rookie players play foosball, but even rookie foosball players like watching the pro's. Money in other sports comes from spectators, not people learning to play the sport. Foosball doesn't really lend itself as a spectator sport, but either way having lots of people around a tournament to see advertisements is the best way to get advertisers. So I think we are kind of on the same page here... Amatures do not need money, pros deserve money(hence the word professional). We just need to figure out the best way to get money into tournaments.

[bbtuna]

the way for that to happen is to have more of every kind of player and as I said earlier, these issues can not be solved by entry fees alone...tournaments need outside money , sponsors

well, your statement about moving up is true in theory...problem is, the points system isn't updated very often and it has had quite a few issues for quite some time now

but, it wouldn't be hard to manipulate the points even if they were updated each tournament if you lost at the right times

but, if you knew you were going to make money as an Amateur, and money was a real motivation, you would work as hard as you could to win everything you could and you would fight to become a Professional player - a paid player (at least comparatively)

[TSR_Brad]

I'll leave the financials to the promoter... I'm more concerned about the integrity of the game.

RANT WARNING!! All the garbage about point systems drive me crazy. I read all the discussions... inquiries as to why they went up this many or went down that many. All the what-if scenarios... "if I beat someone with this many points how many would I get?". Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the goal of playing in a given event to WIN IT?!?! Do we play for points? If points are you're playing for, I think that's what you're missing!

Here's the paradox I see in foosball these days... players demand perfection in their table, they want a hyper-accurate rating system, they want more money but lower entry fees. The list is lengthy.

But ask them to wear something presentable instead of ratty jeans and a t-shirt, or ask them to give a couple of rule changes a chance and all you get is bitching and complaints of infringement on their personal freedoms. Pu-leeese. To continue the apparel analogy, it's like putting a dress on a pig.

From what I've seen in just about every area of life, you usually have to give some to get some.

RANT OFF

BA

[bbtuna]

Will,

we have much more in common than we differ...yes, people pay for a tournament, they need to get something for it...they get ribbons, trophies, recognition, learning, table time, pride, bragging rights, party, etc...

Pros get all that and some money...we both pay...Amateur pays a little less and Pro pays a little more

[Will17]

well said.

[bbtuna]

Ice,

I am with you on the dress code and rules...I don't care about the points thing so much except people need to feel like they are progressing and they need a way to measure how they are doing...points allow for that

I played when you became "Pro" after winning X amount of money...it is really kind of, well, bush...it simple but archaic...we don't need to mature to the level and a fully functioning, long time run, highly funded sport but we can move past..."dude, did you win $250 yet, cause I did and I am a Pro now"

[TSR_Brad]

Ice,

Why it's always gotta be about Ice?!?! (Only one person will get that)

I played when you became "Pro" after winning X amount of money...it is really kind of, well, bush...it simple but archaic...we don't need to mature to the level and a fully functioning, long time run, highly funded sport but we can move past..."dude, did you win $250 yet, cause I did and I am a Pro now"

I was around back then too, yo. And you are correct in that it IS simple. Foosball in its present state doesn't need some complex, convoluted rating system that's going to confuse the snot out of everyone but statisticians and actuaries.

I've always liked simplicity. I think many times people want to assume that a problem is much more complex than it already is. Two examples I see... After all the turmoil of the past year or so over a point system, I still think the old system was adequate except for one big flaw; results were grossly underreported. More data generally results in more accuracy. It worked when there were 5 majors a year. Once that number decreased, problems started to arise.

The other one is the near-universal hatred of Valley's tournament software and near-universal praise for IFP's. I've had extensive experience using the software that Valley uses. It's far from state-of-the-art. It can be rigid sometimes and it's nowhere near the modern definition of user-friendly. But here's the secret to an IFP tournament's efficiency; Candy "The Table Nazi" Liley. If she doesn't constantly monitor the brackets or make sure people are at their tables when they're supposed to be, the tournament will slow to a crawl. When Dave Radack was behind the desk at tour events, he was masterful at keeping events moving. No super-sophisticated software, just vigilance.

[Steve]

I played when $400 made you a pro now we played just to compete my first pro match we lost .now im a beginer I took 5th place in singles in Mi  am I a beginer because my points are low I wont play in that again But I wont bring that nightmare up.Play with the big Dogs learn more .