Topic: Detailed pics of the prototype table.

[gitablok]

Here you are guys. Detailed close ups of the new table, at least I hope so anyway. Best changes imo are no side strip(which is actually under the surface now, but was also the only problem I noticed with the table) and of course the bumper/bearing fix which existed on every table of which I have illustrated with close ups. The last group of photos shows the differences in the outer edge of the man. From what I was told, the yellow men have a 45 degree angle on the edge and the black men have a 22. My only other knock was the cumbersome score beads.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ezemoat/TornadoPrototype

ICEMAN

[foosball_boog]

I wonder how having the side strips under the surface will hold up over time.  It seems to me that it may become a problem over time, but I'm not sure.  What do you guys think?  This would be an expensive manufacturing detail.

[FoosFan]

Iceman, did you have a chance to play the new ball?  If so, what's your take on it?

[bbtuna]

Iceman,

thank you for taking the time to detail these pictures, they very good, I saved a bunch of them for future use

however, i still questions...some I hope you can answer, others myabe not and maybe Ed or someone else can jump in

1.  as mentioned, I sure would like to get detailed feedback on how it actually "played"...

2.  I re-read Corrington's letter because I don't remember any comment on handle changes and ironically enough, those look like the same handles that are on the "proposed" new Warrior ... conicidence?  I think not...but either way, how do they play...they look thinner, which would be better for rollovers but also good for everyone since the rotation is shorter

3.  I see the strip gone, and that sounds all well and good but I don't understand this talk about the strip under the table top...is this literal?  do you mean it is placed under the table to create a little lift to the edge so balls still roll away but to avoid the significant reaction of the ball hitting the strip?...if this is the case, why not just mold the table with a small incline on the edge, it seems that would take less work manufacturing long term and probably improve table life because I can't imagine a edging stuck under the table would be positive long term

4.  Suppose I am slow but I totally do not get the "improvement" on the mans foot...
    a.  Cross-hash:  I thought the cross-hash was going to go up the entire face of the foot
    b.  Cambered Edge:  I thought the word "camfer" meant beveled at 45 degrees...but apart from that, is the thought that the flat edge that runs like a picture frame around the cross-hash is supposed to improve hitting the ball with a consistent angle? 
    c.  Cross-hash Breakthrough:  the cross-hash breaks through the picture frame at one point but doesn't continue the entire face of the man, what is the purpose of this?
    d.  Slick Edge:  won't the picture frame mean you can't rock a backpin as far without hitting a slick edge on the man?
    e.  Remove Curve on Foot:  i need to say this again and hope that Dave Corrington reads this and thinks about it a few minutes before committing to the new man design but, why if we are remolding the man, which isn't going to happen again for many many years...why aren't we getting rid of the curve on the face of the man...I do not understand the purpose or benefit of that curve and it does more, much more, to impact the ability to hit consistent angles than any other thing...benefits of how the face of the man are varied are not as clear except I know that cross-hash means more control but the curve is another thing altogether...lets just remove it, it isn't needed is it? is it good for something I haven't heard about? even hitting the ball flush is impacted by that curve and I think the entire Tornado game would improve accuracy without that curve

[Will17]

If you removed to curve on the frontside of the man when hitting a rollover it might get too far under the ball and cause it to raise above the net... Not sure about this as I havn't tested it.

[bbtuna]

i don't think this is true on other tables with a flush surface but I know it is harder to hit the ball flush with the curve...people have made the adjustment and it isn't a hugh impact, like it is when hitting the ball with an edge that is curved, but it does make an impact on the consistent accuracy of shooting the ball straight though if you watch Tommy Adkinson you wonder if the foot makes any impact to anything but he is a freak of nature and I mean that in the best way possible, he definately has as much or more natual skill as anyone I have ever seen play and he is fun to watch

[georgefoos]

Anyone knows this table and parts will be on the market? Like to try them.

[This Week In Foosball]

Ok...here's the answers.

The foot:
1. The curve on the foot creates more surface contact which allows for more "pinability" and control. Without it there would be less contact with the ball and that would cause the ball to squib away more frequently. Pluss if the foot was straight it would get farther behind the ball on impact causing the ball to fly off the table more often. Think of it as if it were scooping the ball up off the surface.

2. Having the foot textured to the edge would cause it to grab the ball more, causing the ball to travel foward. Kinda creating more of a sweet spot not allowing the ball to release from the foot as easily.  So having the texturing end before the edge would allow the ball to release easier therefore less effort would be required to bank or clip.

It's my opinion that the edge should not have a bevel as this would cause the ball to release at whatever angle the bevel is. So as you move the ball away from the wall, the bevel would only allow you to hit a bank or clip within a small area on the playfield determined by the bevel angle.

The Handles:
Not the same as on the Warrior table. They are a type of rubber compound not wood.
Don't know how well they'd wear over time. They may tend to become slippery when you sweat and wear abnormally. That's to be seen. However they are not OEM. They're aftermarket purchaseable equipment (like wraps) and are not intended to be a "new equipment change".
Talk to Phill Schlaffer if you'd like to buy some.

The Side Strip:
Seems as though over time having the strip between the surface and the base will cause the surface laminate to begin to peel away from the base as it creates tension and is working again the glue that holds the surface down. This could creat a problem with the surface warping near the walls.
Don't know that that would be true yet, but i did find that there were many dead sopts near the walls already that could confirmed my opinion on this issue. Only time will tell.

Bumper/Bearing:
Good fix! Seems to have solved any issues there!

The Ball:
Although it was easier to control, it was Too Soft.
It stubbed more often when shooting a pull and it begain to hurt my arm after playing with it for a while.

Overall though, the changes should be an improvement and should make the game more competitive.

Hope this was informative and helpfull.
I'll have a ball and some of the new men with me at the US Open, so if anyone would like to see them please feel free to ask.
Till then, video of the tabel is up on This Week In Foosball.

http://www.thisweekinfoosball.foosball.com/gallery.html

Happy Foos'n!

[bbtuna]

thank you, good report

a couple of things...I shoot a backpin and have for all the time I have played foosball...I started on TS and played on Dynamo and Early Tornado with a flat front surface and I can tell you without any doubt that the curve is NOT better for control on a backpin...it is just the opposite of what you suggest, you definately have the potential to loose the ball much more easily with the curve...i won't go into detail right now

second, this notion of the ball being hit and scooping up is just a thought not reality...every other table in the world has men with flat surface fronts and none of them are known for the ball jumping off the table...I go back to my earlier explanation at least of TS Dyn and early Tor, plus, go play other current tables and you will see

On The Camfered edge
it just looks flat but a right angle, is that not right...see, this is another reason the face of the man should be flat, the entire front of the foot should have cross-hashed the entire face and to the edge a close as possible...I think there should be as minimal as possible straight edge which stops the cross-hashed from extending all the way to the edge

that edge should be a straight, clean, tough, right angle...I am afraid that if the cross-hash goes all the way over, the edge of the man will wear quicker and chip off with hard smashes with opened handed banks

[Gstillwellar]

Now if they can reduce the width of the current clumbsy foot on the shooting and passing rods to 70's size and increase the width of the foot on the single goalie rod by 1/2 inch, they will have finally woke up to implement the ultimate product. IMHO, A Soccer player with size 9 foot can better run/control the ball than a soccer player with size 14 foot..A Soccer player with wider arms/leggs span can better block than a smaller faster fancier showboat Midfielder or Forward ball runner.

[bbtuna]

the wider man would definately be able to block more but on a foosball table, unlike in real life, a small foot does not mean better control, just the opposite

a beginner will do better with a wider foot and conditions which create better ball control meaning the hashing on the foot both sides, the texture of the ball, the surface of the table and the materials all these are made of

[gitablok]

Iceman, did you have a chance to play the new ball?  If so, what's your take on it?

Hello all. Yes, I got a chance to play the new ball. And... I like it. As I stated before, the only real problem with the table is the side strip. It seems after awhile of playing on the tables, the strip separates from the surface underneath which caused a " something sounds loose " sound. It didn't affect play, it just sounded nasty. I don't think they know how much the surface flexes during play so they may need to find a more viable way of affixing the strip.

As far as the ball is concerned, it is true about stubbing the ball more on pull shots BUT...this is an easy fix. Just move the ball forward. I am in agreement with Todd L. in that the current ball now starts off great but with play the fuzz wears off and it starts to move towards the slick side which is not good for anyone. The new ball seemed to stay consistent all weekend, which is good. Because it is softer, it offers more control, especially on hard stick passes.

Back pins. I don't remember his name but there was a guy there who shot a back pin series of which included some kind of weird squeeze shot. He said if he could shoot this particular shot with the new ball he would be happy. He did it over and over. He loved the ball and the table.

Bankers rejoice. Because of no side strips, the ball doesn't bounce up and hit the rods anymore. I was even able to hit bank shots of which I never do, even from the front three rod.

Old school push kickers. The hard chip angle is back. The men that have the 22 degree angle offer accuracy but more importantly consistency in all chip options shot or pass. The 22 degree offers the best match of ball and man because it best matches the contour of the ball when it hits it at an angle. It's like a rounded tip on a pool cue vs. one that is flat or mushroomed. When you use extreme english on the cue ball, the rounded tip is best because it presents the most surface area, the flat tip usually results in a miscue. So when chip passing or shooting a hard angle, the more surface area you can present to the ball the better and the 22 degreed man seems to do this very well.

My review. After playing 5 min. on the table, I stopped, walked over to Dave Courington and asked, " What is it gonna take for y'all to produce "this" table?"
All of the changes with the bearing fix makes the table simply awesome to play on. Other than the nasty sounding area near the wall, everyone I talked liked or loved the table.

ICEMAN

[This Week In Foosball]

thank you, good report

a couple of things...I shoot a backpin and have for all the time I have played foosball...I started on TS and played on Dynamo and Early Tornado with a flat front surface and I can tell you without any doubt that the curve is NOT better for control on a backpin...it is just the opposite of what you suggest, you definately have the potential to loose the ball much more easily with the curve...i won't go into detail right now

second, this notion of the ball being hit and scooping up is just a thought not reality...every other table in the world has men with flat surface fronts and none of them are known for the ball jumping off the table...I go back to my earlier explanation at least of TS Dyn and early Tor, plus, go play other current tables and you will see

On The Camfered edge
it just looks flat but a right angle, is that not right...see, this is another reason the face of the man should be flat, the entire front of the foot should have cross-hashed the entire face and to the edge a close as possible...I think there should be as minimal as possible straight edge which stops the cross-hashed from extending all the way to the edge

that edge should be a straight, clean, tough, right angle...I am afraid that if the cross-hash goes all the way over, the edge of the man will wear quicker and chip off with hard smashes with opened handed banks

Good points Tuna......However,

The reason the ball didn't fly off the table on TS and other tables with straight faced men is because the man sat higher up off the playing surface. Therefore the man was unable to get up under the ball. The Tornado man sits very low to the table, so a straight faced Tornado man would strike the ball below the center of the ball, lifting it up off the table. Especially when hitting a rollover.

The reason it's better for a back pin is simple, the curve creates more of a flat surface effect on the man when it's tilted back therefore there is more contace with the ball. The next time your near a table, tilt the man back and you'll be able to see this effect.

Yes, the front of the face should be flat across, but having the crosshatching continue to the edge creates two problems:

1. A bigger sweet spot that doesn't allow the ball to release at a angle when attempting a bank or chip. I know this to be a fact as I have recently played with a set of men that has the crosshatching to the edge. This effect is quite evedent when you play with the two types of men side by side.

2. The crosshatching near the edge tends to flattten out, or mushroom, causing the material to extend over the edge, and protrude over to the side of the man. This then has an adverse effect on lateral control of the ball.

Your right about the edge of the man.
It should be at a right angle, however as it is now, the debate among those within and in control seems to be between a straight edge and a 22 degree bevel. If you were a TS player or have played on any table that had straight edged men, you know that the straight edge is what made it easier to hit chips and banks......Im voting for the straight edge. (but no crosshatching to the edge).

[bbtuna]

Iceman,

thank you, good review...I am excited, very excited, about the changes

about the back pin...it isn't shooting the ball that is impacted so much by the curved foot, it is ball control...put a ball on a convex surface and then put it on a flat surface you will see part one of what I am talking about...or you can pin the ball in a front pin, then pin the ball in a back pin and look closely you will see what I mean...you do not have more surface on the curved foot

but even this isn't as big an issue as it is that the curved surface makes the ball walk forward and is constantly changing the angle and as the ball walks forward it is increasingly more likely to slide out...this is true with a flat surface to some degree but the difference here is that the ball is on a hill side and not a flat ramp

i don't know why they don't make the front side the same as the back side, it presents an uneven experience front pin to back pin

I am definately prejudice because I am a backpin shooter but how many true backpin shooters were used in extensive study...I don't want the backpin to have an advantage over other shots, but I would like to see it have an equal opportunity again and this man change may be the only time this can happen for another 20 years

[This Week In Foosball]

Wrong wrong wrong Tuna.

Like I said...the next time your around a table take a look.

The curved front of the foot actually makes a flat surface when tilted back, therefore more surface contact is made on the ball. The curve on the front is not a semi circle, which would make your point true.

Try this...pin the ball as if your shooting a roll over and observe the contact point the man makes with the ball.
Then set the ball in the back pin position and you'll see the effect the curve has....You'll see that the man not only makes more contact with the ball, but also sits flatter on top of the ball which gives you more control....If your having issues with the ball squibbing away in a back pin, then you have it sitting either too far forward or too far back.....

Go to a table........and take a look.