Topic: Snake Shot vs. Euro Pin

[foosinaround69]

Well said BB....You're not the only fish swimming upstream...I'm a killer shark swimming with you waiting to eat some other fish...lol...

[Fastert]

Hi,

I've read this topic trough and it's a nice discussion with many good tips and I'd like to add something to it.
I play competition in Holland in the SBN (Soccer Bond Nederland), in that competition it's allowed to choose your table as long it's a soccer table, so no wood like Topper or Jupiter and also no Bonzini. There's also a competition for wooden tables in Holland and that's played an the Topper 2000 http://www.tafelvoetbal.nl/Multimedia/Foto/Album-Speeltafels/Topper-Album.html. On that table the snake is practically impossible because of the rods and hand grips. So the people that plays on that table are really pure pinners, so their pin is evolved and can shoot every corner they want, straight or crossed in both directions, I think that's also a advantage of the pin compared to the snake. Frederique plays in this comp and on this table it's not sure who is going to win when he plays to a dutch top player. But most of the players are 'limited' to pinning because you can't play different styles on this table.
In the SBN there are several players who use the snake as well as the pin on all kinds of tables. This season we got a Tecball, Leonhart and last but not least a Tornado(our home table ) in the competition. Some players do only pinning, until they come to us and than you see the 'limitation' of playing only one style. They are very, very careful and need a lot of balls to launch a good pinball. I learned myself to stay open for all the styles of playing, so Tic-Tac, Pin even a little bit of snaking, so when I play on the Tornado I do Tic-Tac en some push/pull kick which is effective because the other people are not used to it, when I play on Tecball I do more Pin, but also Tic-Tac. What I want to say is, be and stay open for all the styles and play as many on different tables to learn different shooting techniques and get a good ball control. In the end I choose the pin above the snake, because I grew up with it, but a advantage of the snake is that when your pin doesn't work anymore, the snake will, because you almost can't do it wrong!!!

Greetings Fastert

[bbtuna]

Fastert,

great post, good having you on the board...thanks for taking the time to share

i am really beginning to love the international flavor of foosball and wish I was young again

I wish we had some table options here to experience the different styles...I still hope, on a different but sort of related note, that all the European tables bring there build quality up and that there are some standards on materials, rod weights, ball weights...not the same for all but a min and max range

even still, i evny the European community of fooser and am glad to see you all playing and working so hard...I hope the future has more and more exchange

thanks again and welcome a"board"

[thebodygroove]

Two tables you are familiar with, the Techball and the Fireball, support the snake because the men have low rotational weight. But because the rod is slightly heavier, the lateral speed is not as great.

Iceman,

so you know these tables, too? That's very interesting, because I'm planning to get a Fireball for my basement. Would you say that practicing on a Fireball also benefits one's skills on a Tornado? And did you like the feel of the Fireball?

Cheers

Pat

[TSR_Brad]

The Fireball is about as close as you'll get to a Tornado but "stickier". Probably close to the Tornado prototype that was in Las Vegas... no side strip, softer ball. In fact, it's probably closer to a Shelti because of the foot of the man. It seemed to be solid and well built, though. We didn't have a Tornado ball handy, but I would guess if you used one the play characteristics would be fairly similar.

I wasn't overly fond of the large foot. It seemed strange. We saw the Fireball at the Garlando WCS last year and here was this table that had men with great big feet surrounded by a sea of tiny-footed Garlando men. I LOVED the handles, though.

As for the Tecball, it's probably my favorite of the european tables. If they can get their production volume up and get the cost a little more reasonable, I'd love to see them in the U.S.. I think it's a viable choice of tournament table.

BA

[bbtuna]

Brad,

is the foot actually bigger than Tornado foot (which I think is already large) or does it just seem larger because of the small head on the man...I was looking at a picture of the table the feet look a lot like Tornado

http://www.a-better-tablefootball.be/fireball.htm

on the Techball, I heard it plays a lot like the Brown Top TS table which I played on in the early years (and I still own one)...the men look identical which maybe why people say that but I am curious how it really plays and what characteristics you find most compelling.

[TSR_Brad]

Brad,

is the foot actually bigger than Tornado foot (which I think is already large) or does it just seem larger because of the small head on the man...I was looking at a picture of the table the feet look a lot like Tornado

No, the foot is indeed larger, again similar to the Shelti. It could be worse... at least they're not the microcephalic figures a la Johnny Lott's design which in my opinion look flat out weird.

on the Techball, I heard it plays a lot like the Brown Top TS table which I played on in the early years (and I still own one)...the men look identical which maybe why people say that but I am curious how it really plays and what characteristics you find most compelling.

I think the man is really the only similarity to the TS brown-top. The comparison comes when you're talking about the ability to bank, better at chips/angles, etc. I like it because it's a bit of a faster table. The one thing I really DON'T like is the jingling of the washers on the rods. It just sounds goofy. I also like it simply because it's foosball on something other than a Tornado. In Italy, I played as much on the other tables as possible, spending very little time on the Tornado. No better or worse, just to play on a different table.

[bbtuna]

thanks,

that jingle sound reminds me of TS days...that also may be a reason people compare it to a Brown Top (or green or blue when it comes to the jingle)

i would love the opportunity to play all those other tables...I suspect I wouldn't like quite a few things but I would find the entire experience a lot of fun and helpful to my game...TS made quite a few changes while I was playing, I came in at the end of the Green top and so started on that, changed to Blue, and of course played the brown...all of these had pretty unique differences especially blue/green to brown and I also played on Dynamo (and some other one off brand tables) and I never found it a big deal to move from one to the other but there were play characteristics that I had strong opinions about (imagine that)

however, overall I liked all of them...my least favorite was the Brown Top and it is ironic I still own the one I bought in 80 or 81

[thebodygroove]

As for the Tecball, it's probably my favorite of the european tables. If they can get their production volume up and get the cost a little more reasonable, I'd love to see them in the U.S.. I think it's a viable choice of tournament table.

BA

What was it that you liked about that table in particular? From what I've heard, it plays pretty much like a P4P, but I HATE the look of the goalie on the goal line... even worse than the Tornado's three goalie men, in my opinion.

[gitablok]

Wow, what a week.

I was gonna post late Wed. night but fell asleep only to wake up to Tornado( of a different kind ) warnings. These are quite common in my area considering I live in Tornado Alley. Then the reporter states that there is rotation within a mile or two of my location and if you live in this area, TAKE COVER, because there might be a tornado wrapped in rain. Not words I wanted to hear. I look outside and realize that I am in severe danger. I see not one but two funnel clouds spinning overhead. Thankfully for me, they kept moving and didn't touch down. I was lucky, but others were not. There were two confirmed plus three possible tornadoes that touched down later that morning. I guess my price for escaping the funnel clouds was getting food poisoning later that day at work. Only now do I feel comfortable venturing more that 10 feet away from a bathroom.

With all that said, it's good to see the thread is still going strong. This is what foosball is all about people. How cool is it that people from all over the world are commenting, taking, and giving advice on a given subject. Priceless. And Brad, you dun gone and dun it pal. Ok now about photography, first you need to ........................ just kidding.

Hey Fastert, if you know Hank Hobbits( I'm sure I spelled his name wrong ), Tell him Iceman said Hello.

And bodygroove, I am with Brad with his feeling of the Techball. The reason the we like the table the most is because it supports all styles of play. Not just an American, French, Austrian, Italian, German, British, or any style of play for that matter. This table supports every style out there, of which I think is awesome. Think of it, one table that supports everyones style of play. No one has a distinct advantage because of the table you are on. In a sense you have purified the aspect of competition, because now if someone does have an advantage, they have earned it through sheer hard work.


ICEMAN

[bbtuna]

Iceman,

good to hear you are okay and its good you are back

what you describe with the Techball is what I have wanted for Tornado since coming back 4 1/2 years ago

Tornado table changes was the topic of my very first post on Ezboard

this leads me to the idea about equipment standars

I have said it on here too, the game needs recoginized equipment standards especially since there are so many competition tables

I don't think all the tables should play exactly the same, just like Tennis with hard surface, clay, grass and even changes within each of these but there are standards for the demensions of the court, height of net, ball, rackets, etc ... same with all sports

foosball has tables with each differnet size play fields, balls, rods, handles, foot size, goal, etc...I think some should have absolute standards like play field size and goal size (width, height, and shape) and the others I think need to have minimums and maximums and as soon as possible approved materials

as an example the ball...I think this should either take the route of the tennis ball or baseball with very tight almost absolute standards or at the very least have a size standard and weight range and again eventually when more is know, a material guidelines and/or absolutes

I think I would seriously consider if telescoping rods should be allowed for competiton play and I further think a table should be able to pass certain tests which prove it to have a minimum stability during games so the table does move all over the place when Billy steps up rips a pull shot...watching the video of Billy shooting a pull on Bonzini for example, I thought the table was going to explode

anyway, this is a hot button for me so I am glad to hear there is at least one table that can support all shots and play styles

I pretty much said the same back in November on this site on this thread

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=1301.msg4254#msg4254

however, like pretty much every other sport, I think there should be standards and/or tolerances like playfield (size, approved materials, level), rod specs (length, diameter, weight, material), Men (foot size/shape, height from table, distance from each other) , side strip (size, etc) , bumpers, handles (size, material, changeable, etc) , ball (length, diameter, weight, material), table height/weight (and other dimensions), score/game/time out posts, and finally goal size (height, width, shape).

The trick is to do this and still allow each table to retain its own unique personality...I think it can be done if the key requirements provide the right tolerances and/or variables (like available material for man, table surface, and balls).

I am totally cool with the idea of the best player being determined by who can play best on a variety of tables…Fredrico has shown that he is the best (ever in my opinion) because he dominates on every table and has for 10 years or more.

I just think the players should NOT have to deal with things like the table surface not being level or the ball not being round or widely varying goal sizes or table weight.  Lets build solid heavy tables (at least 400 pounds) for tournament competition that are level and have balls that stay round or are replaced often enough not to matter.  I also think the size of the goal should be consistent…could you imagine football uprights each being a different width, or soccer goals, or hockey, or basket ball, or any well known sport where goals are scored?

No, there should be standards.

[thebodygroove]

And bodygroove, I am with Brad with his feeling of the Techball. The reason the we like the table the most is because it supports all styles of play. Not just an American, French, Austrian, Italian, German, British, or any style of play for that matter. This table supports every style out there, of which I think is awesome. Think of it, one table that supports everyones style of play. No one has a distinct advantage because of the table you are on. In a sense you have purified the aspect of competition, because now if someone does have an advantage, they have earned it through sheer hard work.

Iceman,

I'm sure the Tecball Crew would love to hear what an internationally experienced player has to say about their table; but does their concept differ so much from the other German tables? I think the Tecball (even though I haven't had the opportunity to play one yet) is no different from the other Lehmacher tables, which again are only copies of the Leonhart Soccer. From what I've heard, the surface offers a little more grip, but the men and the ball are just standard Lehmacher.

As to supporting all playing styles, the Tecball is pretty much a pure "New School" table that primarily supports ball-pinning styles. Tic Tacs work, but not as great as on a Tornado - as a newbie I wouldn't dare deliver such statements if it wouldn't be made perfectly clear by just looking at the form of the feet. So I was a little surprised reading about your appraisal of the Tecball's capabilities - but you're an experienced player and I'm not, so whoever reads this should feel encouraged to trust you more than me.

The one table that WAS contructed in order to support all styles of play is the Fireball. The form of the feet allow pinning styles as much as Tic Tacs and bank shots, the ball is the Tornado-Ball (only in a different color), and the surface is the same like the ones Lehmacher and Leonhart use.

[gitablok]

It's not so much the shape of the foot that supports the American style vs. the playing surface. Any surface that allows us to stop the ball and it stays there and any surface that rolls true or straight will support our style. I was able to set up and shoot pushes and pulls from a stand still, also tic tac pull and push kicks. Rob Atha was shooting his signature slingshots or scorpions from the two rod. I was able to shoot a good snake on the table. Brush passes and stick passes were possible. Was also able to set up a pull shot on the three rod. Jim of Insidefoos shot some pushkicks on it. So yeah, it supports our style.


I think we like it because it is of such heavy duty construction which is best for competition.

What did you think Brad TSR?

[thebodygroove]

It's not so much the shape of the foot that supports the American style vs. the playing surface. Any surface that allows us to stop the ball and it stays there and any surface that rolls true or straight will support our style. I was able to set up and shoot pushes and pulls from a stand still, also tic tac pull and push kicks. Rob Atha was shooting his signature slingshots or scorpions from the two rod. I was able to shoot a good snake on the table. Brush passes and stick passes were possible. Was also able to set up a pull shot on the three rod. Jim of Insidefoos shot some pushkicks on it. So yeah, it supports our style.

Oh, I see. But that really goes for all Lehmacher tables, not only the Tecball. What do you think of the P4P?

[gitablok]

Exactly which one is that.