Topic: Back Pin videos in video section of foosball.com forum

[bbtuna]

some pictures, late 70s early 80s...oh, to be built like that again...sorry, some of these were scanned so you get some unrelated pics


Long before the dress code, my idea of what players should look like...Kurt Timmel lower right pic in grey sweat shirt and towell around his neck
I am the guy in the black sports attire, red and white glove, sporting my first and last mustache...an early 80's porn stash




Kurt Timmel relaxing in KC upper and lower left and CD Karate late 70s

[bbtuna]

Jevat Meha left




lft to right CD, KT, and Greg Wales
Kurt's dad own a place in AZ and was a piano bar guy...toured as an opening act with Elvis for a time...he got us to do Hounddog..KT did lead and Greg and I were the "Doo Waas"  we were the Foosbrothers...our first and last appearance

[Sniffler]

Blockable, sometimes, could you maybe, but it is a pretty darn good shot, can you really be everywhere at once, are you watching the ball?

Well, and I'm just being honest here. It looks like every other back pin I've seen. I know a few old school players who have decent back pins except for the fact that they're extremely inconsistent.

I don't need to be everywhere. I just need to be in front of the ball. hmnaaaahh - seriously though I would just leave the straight because it's impossible to hit from a back pin. Don't try and deny it - the only way you can get it is from a reverse and I should block that on accident. 

[Sniffler]

I will say this though. I was very impressed by your long/deadbar. It was out there!

[Sniffler]

people who approach me thinking the backpin can not go straight quickly learn that is not true...

I just read this from another thread and can't believe my eyes. 
If you have to move the ball even a little bit it's not a straight and gives a read on your shot.

 I know all about the brush between options too. FTR I can shoot a good back pin and use it when I'm bored. I like the pull/push kick options off of the set but then that's not really a back pin anymore.

I just got a new camera so I'll see if I can post up some clips of my arsenal of shots. I pretty much can shoot everything near/far side slingshots/back pins/snake/pull/push all the kickshots - tic tacs. Even the front pin although I feel very homosexual after wards.

 I know it sounds like I'm bragging but the sad thing is I have been blessed with the natural talent and speed but absolutley zero patiences. So a good goalie can get in my head pretty easily if you know what I mean..

[bbtuna]

Sniffer,

I can't speak to who you have played in the past but I can assure you that if you played me, you would not leave me a straight more than a game to two unless you are just slow or stubborn...I here about people who can shoot a backpin but have never met one in person ... in the case of Pinalyzer, FA69, and myself, we are all committed long term backpin shooters...until you face one of us, or our equal, I don't think you have faced a backpin

I am not saying I would score on you all the time or that the BP is a magic shot, but I can assure you, in the right hands, it is as good as any other shot on the table and if we played alot you would come to respect the shot and provide a defense that dealt with the entire goal just like you would any other shot


here is a quote from another post (edited) where I address the straight a little

"...the lack of a straight is the most common comment about the backpin made by people who have never faced a good one...I love facing goalies like this, it is a big advantage until they catch on that they need to defend the middle as much as the corners

you can not raise your man and strike the ball straight and you can not flip it over like you do with a front pin but you can shoot straight off the same exact move as a long in either direction by moving the ball about 1/2 inch and you can,
1. hit it right at that 1/2 inch mark,
2. come back to the hole (not a reverse, more like a moving straight on the pull),
2. or cut back

people who approach me thinking the backpin can not go straight quickly learn that is not true..."

I can't tell you how many times I have heard the whispers of people on the other side of the table who have my shot figured out and I can tell in an instant when they have decided to leave the middle…he, he, he

seriously, I would put up big money against any goalie who left me straight...any level goalie...and I would not do a reverse ever to get there...you can bait me for straight and take it away but then you are playing the straight, but if you choose to leave me straight and cover the corners, I will score close to 100%, the only factor is if I miss hit the ball or you accidentally get in the way

I don't know how Pinalyzer handles the "you can't go straight" defenses but I wouldn't read anything into the videos you saw...he is filming with one hand and shooting with the other and he isn't trying to shoot fast or show you everything that can be done, he is only trying to show the basics in slow enough speed that those who are interested in the mechanics can see how it is done

Sniff,
can you introduce yourself and tell us where you are from?  I would love the opportunity to play you sometime and if you promise to give me middle, we can do a forward against goalie battle for say, I don't know, $10 a ball up to? I don't know, whatever number you want to keep giving me the straight

[bbtuna]

Sniff, Sniff, Sniffy

do you have to move to hit a straight on a pull? do you have to move to hit a straight on a rollover? do you have to move to hit a straight off front pin?

the answer to all these is of course, "Yes"...you don't have to move the ball, but you have to move the man so it takes motion to shoot a straight

anyone can have a tell, that is true on all the straights listed above so you can shoot a backpin and have a tell on the straight but you don't have too

we can argue about if moving the ball a little disqualifies it has a straight but I can tell you the people I play with regularly would tell you not to leave me straight and they will never leave that hole without considering the consequences

you can call it a split if you would rather, but you won't leave me a "straight" either way for long and I do very few deep cut backs so that isn't what I am talking about

it isn't a question of if I can hit the ball literally straight, the question is, can you leave me a straight and block my shot by doing this...if I can hit that hole a half dozen different ways off the same move I shoot everything else off of, then the arguement becomes a disscussion in symantics and it looses its meaning

[Sniffler]

by moving the ball about 1/2 inch and you can,
1. hit it right at that 1/2 inch mark,
2. come back to the hole (not a reverse, more like a moving straight on the pull),
2. or cut back

Right here you are admitting you can't go straight with out moving the ball. I don't know how else to explain this to you - that is not a straight bro! YOUR MOVING THE BALL! Jeez guy.

...until you face one of us, or our equal, I don't think you have faced a backpin

Wow... that's more than slightly self centered and naive to think your the only 3 real BP shooters. But whatever ok.

$10 a ball up to? I don't know, whatever number you want to keep giving me the straight

 I hope you have a fat wallet or I'll be busting you in 3 or 4 games. Also to be more clear I'm not going to leave anything for you. This isn't target practice and I'm not your practice bunny. So you going to have to time the wholes.

 Also something else to consider is, by back pinning the ball you are effectivley increasing the distance from the ball to the goal - Front pin/snake is closer to the whole. I think you can figure out where I'm going with this. By increasing the distance to the goal you are in fact giving more time for the goalie to read your shot. You can argue with numbers.  

Oh yeah - my name is Paul Ledger and I'm from Florida.

[bbtuna]

Paul,

good to meet you..

you said,
"Right here you are admitting you can't go straight with out moving the ball. I don't know how else to explain this to you - that is not a straight bro! YOUR MOVING THE BALL! Jeez guy."

First, if a person has a ball set up for a pull, and move the ball and then shoots in the one hole, what do they call that?  Okay, with me on this....aaaa Straight!  Pull, move the ball 1/2 inch and shoot the one hole and that is called??? aaaa Straight! Pull, move the ball an inch or inch and a half and cut the ball back to the one hole and what do you call that? ....yes, a Straaight

but also, as I said in anticipation of your response and I will repeat it since you don't acknowledge it,

"you can call it a split if you would rather, but you won't leave me a "straight" either way for long and I do very few deep cut backs so that isn't what I am talking about

it isn't a question of if I can hit the ball literally straight, the question is, can you leave me a straight and block my shot by doing this...if I can hit that hole a half dozen different ways off the same move I shoot everything else off of, then the arguement becomes a disscussion in symantics and it looses its meaning"

you said,
"Wow... that's more than slightly self centered and naive to think your the only 3 real BP shooters. But whatever ok."

again, you aren't reading the entire post or you are selectively choosing...I said and you quote in your reply,  "...until you face one of us, or our equal,I don't think you have faced a backpin"

bud, "or our equal" allows for other backpiners...read and comprehend first, jeez guy

Paul, you can't change the disscussion in the middle of the arguement, I started my reply to you because you said,

"seriously though I would just leave the straight because it's impossible to hit from a back pin."

see where it says, "I would just leave the straight" but then in this post you are back peddling when you say, "Also to be more clear I'm not going to leave anything for you"  but a couple of posts ago you were going to leave me the straight and now you are not...hmmm, you are learning faster than most...I smell fear

now, this is a picky point but you said it not me, you said, "it is impossible to hit (a straight) from a back pin"...you didn't say it was impossible to hit the ball straight down when it is pinned...you said, a pack pinner can't hit a straight and I am telling you, if you leave me a straight, you will find that I can hit it, regardless of what I have to do to hit it and you can argue definitions if you want (but even then I think you are wrong) but like I said, you won't leave the straight long if you play goalie against me

Then you bring up a point I already made in another thread, the one you quoted from a minute ago...you say,

" Also something else to consider is, by back pinning the ball you are effectivley increasing the distance from the ball to the goal - Front pin/snake is closer to the whole. I think you can figure out where I'm going with this. By increasing the distance to the goal you are in fact giving more time for the goalie to read your shot. You can argue with numbers."

here is what I said, please read carefully,

it has two weakness, one perceived (besides the straight) and one that is real and has to be dealt with

1st…the ball starts quite a bit further back, relative to the goal mouth than front pins (Euro or rollover) so the ball will take longer to reach the goal because it has to move about 2 ˝ inches further at the strike point…however, this is only a perceived issue because the back swing on the backpin can and should be, much less, or nothing, compared with the move used in a open-handed motion of a Euro Pin or the flip motion of the rollover…I have watched a ton of Fred in slow motion, frame by frame and even as compact has his open-handed roll is, it is still quite high so in the end, all things are equal

[pinalyzer]

Hey BBtuna,
Isn't that the funnest thing when they think they got it figured out and you are just waiting to make the adjustment to their obvious adjustment.  I remember reading Pat Riley's book after winning with the Lakers and he mentioned quite a few times how the one that makes the last adjustment wins.
I get...I just match your speed and go back and forth.  I love this one because they don't understand yet what I am shooting.  You can't shoot middle, O please leave me a middle, it is much easier than the longs each side.  I guess you guys are talking about a straight, well I move the ball in dribbling and so as I have spoken to there are multiple starting points with a backpin so where is the straight.  Right down the middle, sorry that is the very last thing anyone wants to leave a backpin player, to easy to shoot.  I think that it is like someone saying they have seen a pull until they play against Tracy, Gumby or Tommy.  It is at a different level.  The best thing is when I have been drilling a goalie and their forward goes back to show their goalie how it is done and I drill them.  The conversation they have after that is a realization that they better work on scoring and passing because blocking is not the answer and they switch back.
The Pinalyzer

[Sniffler]

good to meet you..

Thanks, same to you. BTW who is this?

bud, "or our equal" allows for other backpiners...read and comprehend first, jeez guy

I'm sorry dude but I believe your trying to discredit the BP shooters I've faced, and you are so don't deny that now. If you weren't why even bother writing it.
 That's like you saying you can block a pull shot and I say yeah but you've never faced mine so you don't know what your talking about. OK now moving on to this...

Pull, move the ball 1/2 inch and shoot the one hole and that is called??? aaaa Straight!

No it's not, that's called a tuckback. It's not a straight, why are you so dead set on calling your little moves straights? Once the ball moves your not shooting a straight. I will give you this - ok, call it a cutback to the straight whole. You did not shoot the ball straight. For definition purposes let's agree - a straight is when you literally hit the ball straight without moving.

By your definition every shot is a straight because the ball is going straight towards the goal. I mean your being ridiculous.  

it isn't a question of if I can hit the ball literally straight, the question is, can you leave me a straight and block my shot by doing this

Put it this way. A goalie doesn't have to worry about blocking the straight at all until you MOVE the ball. Hence a fault in the shot.

this is only a perceived issue because the back swing on the backpin can and should be, much less, or nothing, compared with the move used in a open-handed motion of a Euro Pin or the flip motion of the rollover

Compared the euro pin yes - the rollover has zero back swing - that's the most beautiful part about the whole shot and why it's superior to others. Now if you compare a pull shot to a back pin it should have less back swing. For a BP you have to lift off of the ball to move it, on a pull shot when you slide laterally the ball adjust itself in front of the toe. ALmost no back swing depending on the shooter.

[Sniffler]

You can't shoot middle, O please leave me a middle, it is much easier than the longs each side.  I guess you guys are talking about a straight, well I move the ball in dribbling and so as I have spoken to there are multiple starting points with a backpin so where is the straight

Hey Tuna look what he did. This guy gets it. It's a middle not a straight buddy. Thank you! At this point I'm not going to bother arguing if you guys are good at the shot or not. That's a moot point and very subjective. I'm arguing the faults in the actual mechanincs of the shot.   

 If you can show me on video where you can shoot straight with out moving the ball from a back pin I'll shut up. Until then I'm saying the 70's called and wants its shot back.

[pinalyzer]

I shoot a very good straight pull shot and I still have to move the man over the ball to hit it.  I am not starting with the man behind the ball.  If you did that you would have a hard time shooting the long.
It is called a straight becuase you are shooting at the hole in front of the starting position.  You still have to move the man over so that it is behind the ball even if not doing a moving straight.  The lift up straight same thing the man was beside the ball and you move it behind the ball.  With a backpin we are shooting to the hole in front of the ball.  For a backpin that starts in the middle of the hole that is a straight, thus I said shooting middle.  The straight for a push shooter is the long hole for the pull shooter.  Are you saying when they shoot a straight it is a long hole because you are using the pull shot as a reference.  You don't smash down on the ball, although I think with the proper placement I have seen some backpiners to this, and with a pull you dont smash down on the ball, you move the man over and hit the ball to the straight hole.
Nevertheless, there are some basic flaws in a defense if you leave any good shooter a hole, if they can't hit is they aren't a good shooter with that shot.  You were just baiting us with the whole I would leave straight and you can't hit it thread.  I am a pro goalie and I would never assume I could leave a hole, I want to win the point, game, match.  btw, how can a front pin shoot the straight, they are in front of the ball, they would have to move, or flip the bar over.  And from what I have seen the flip the bar over is usually down a little slower and works more as a dink than a power straight such as seen on the rollover and pull. the rollover doesn't do splits as well, but can do a reverse of sorts.

[Sniffler]

You were just baiting us with the whole I would leave straight and you can't hit it thread

You can't hit the straight whole with out moving the ball period! That's it man, why do you guys have issue with reality? You can get on here and tell us all about your little juke moves until the cows come home. But that doesn't change anything. FOr a pull shot and a rollover you don't have to move the ball to hit the straight whole. That makes both of those shots superior to your Back pin. Sorry it just does.

[Sniffler]

Are you saying when they shoot a straight it is a long hole because you are using the pull shot as a reference.

No, I'm saying they shot a straight because they didn't have to move the ball. ugh