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The switch of the 2 man on defense

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The switch of the 2 man on defense
« on: June 09, 2008, 04:52:28 PM »
This is aimed at Iceman mostly but if anyone else has thoughts please chime in.  As a player from the 70's I had good luck staying with a defense using the far man on the 2 bar and the goalie without switching from the 22 to the 21 as they do today. This allowed me to block the deadman pull and see the holes on the push.While watching matches from today's top players it seems these switches are more a weak point that the front player is waiting on than a help. That is unless the one defense is held long enough so that the front man then changes his focus an then gets that interrupted by a switch. I've seen it done but it seems mostly the front guy gets what he wants by waiting  on the switch. Your thoughts,,,

Offline EDGEER

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2008, 07:25:21 PM »
On the old tables deadman was not as open as much.  Since the early 80's on Tornado when McCloud redesigned the man he also widen the gap between the men on the 2-rod to make deadbar eaisier.  It wasn't much, maybe a 1/4", but it was enough to make a post D very risky aginst a deadbar.

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2008, 07:57:36 PM »
Which supports what I use as a defense, using the far man (22) and goalie as opposed to the close man (21)and goalie, thus not giving up the dead man on the pull. I don't switch much if at all. I'm well aware of the weak points and how best to defend them, which is on the push side. But that was on TS tables, this wider goal allows for straights that I didn't realize were there so a slight adjustment is made but that isn't what I'm really after in this post. I would like to hear how and why someone like Ice switches, when he does and how he goes about it. I'm not afraid to learn something and incorporate it into my game and I think these tables require that you do switch so that is my reason for asking.

Offline papafoos

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 08:40:12 PM »
I switch to the #2 man occasionally on a push shooter or push kick.  I might try it on a snake if I'm getting pounded just to show them something different.  But for the most part I stay with #1.  If you're going to use #2, make sure you don't over run the deadman and leave a long angle split.

I use the #2 fairly often when the opposing 5 row is passing on their inside.  I think it helps me react to the inside squib as long as I'm paying attention.

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 10:26:23 PM »
This is my favorite kind of D-Fence. It works Extremely well on Pull shooters. When you show different looks forwards start getting confused. When they see a reverse D with the outside 2 bar they try to remember were you were sitting. Try not to switch to much. What a good player would do is sit on it. They always feel that if someone is switching back and forth they start to get a rythem that is what you dont want. Make them confused by switching positions with your goalie and 2 row. This is extremely difficult to show in writing i will show it to you in Kentucky if you go. Just ask. I block top pro-master better than anyone else cause they want garanteed goals.

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 01:03:13 AM »
Wow, this could take awhile.

This is the most complex defense out there that I and other goalies employ. Only in given situations will you need to use this defense. I hate to put it this way, but unless you have a good understanding and a good implementation of the theories of this D, stay away from it because it will get you smoked by top forwards. However, I will do my best to explain how I use it. This is one of those things best explained in person with examples.

Okay, the D you refer to is what I call the " V " or the " floating goalie ". There are only 3 instances you will see me use this D. A pushkick, a pullkick, and some type of front pin that hits the corners extremely well. I use it on the pull and push kick because these shots effective " stretch " the hole beyond its normal parameters because of the angles. In other words, you can't just sit in front of the hole and block these type of shots, they can angle in behind you. The euro pin because it is a deception shot, and there are a few rollover shooters out there that key on what side you have the post of your defense on. Because of the options available to the shooter, it is my aim when using this defense to confuse the shooter. This defense makes the shooter concentrate on the obvious open hole and where he thinks it is, but not where my men are and where they will be. Confusing. It should be. That's why this defense is hard to master, it is pure confusion. If you don't know what you are doing, guess what, you're doing more harm than good.

First that rollover shooter that shoots at the post. Some shooters hit the corners so well, all they do is follow the two rod. As soon as they see it flinch, they shoot at it because they know if you move the slightest bit, the ball will go around it. The way to combat this is to eliminate the two rod going into the post position by bringing in the far two rod and then floating the goaile in behind the two rod to cover long on both sides.

In the euro pin it is the same principle. The shooter is trying to confuse you so give him some of his own medicine. He's trying to deceive you so do the same to him. He will see every hole open to him but he knows this is not possible. That's where the confusion is in this D.

Push and Pull kicks. This D now becomes very dangerous. What you are showing the shooter is what is actually there. However, because of the V formation, you have two men near the hole you are showing him but he really only sees one of them. A half inch movement of both men will cover the holes he is zeroing in on which is confusing to him because they looked so big before he took off to shoot. For this D to work against these shots you must know exactly where and how much to move your men or you will be shreded. What you have to know is what holes he sees when you move your men into certain positions, that way you know what adjustments you need to make.

As you see, this is a very complex D. I only scratched the surface in each situation so ask me to explain in more detail of one particular situation and I will try to give you more info. I would probably crash the server if I tried to do it all at once,lol.


ICEMAN.

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 08:34:03 PM »
Good stuff! It gives me things to think about, all of you guys. But to under stand what Ice was saying, as I described the defense I use, you call that the "v" defense? But you only go to that in the situations described. So what is your normal go to defense and how do you work it? I did really good against the snake shooters I've faced with the 2-2 and goalie(v?) and shut down a good push kick from a pro but the wider goal makes the pull harder to defend as I get burned on the straight or tweener more than I ever did before. So how do you approach a good pull shot, that I guess is what I most need to know. Again all you foos monsters please give me your thoughts, this is great,,

Offline Steve

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »
I used that on a pullkicker and cut him off on our second game he was totaly confused as to where I was going to block. his shot was fast and hard  he couldnt recover from it I didnt really understand the D that well, It saved me though .

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 01:08:46 AM »
The defense of choice for the most part for most pro goalies is going to be the standard where the two man covers the short and the goalie covers the long, men a ball width apart. This is why it is called the standard. The switch to a reverse is mainly to add confusion to the shooter.

Check out this old thread.

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=1762.msg7247;topicseen#msg7247


ICEMAN.

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 08:14:55 PM »
You know, Ice, I knew I played to a different fiddler way back when, in my defense, as I went with the 2-2 man and goalie rather than the 2-1 and goalie for my main defense. The "standard" defense as you describe actually feels foreign to me because of it.But the defense I used has served me well for the most part and does now give the semi pros fits as it is a different look, I guess. I went that way because the pull shooters that could hit the Deadman  couldn't be sure of it against me and the holes that were 'weak' were visible to me, not them. So much has changed from the TS game and it is a real struggle for me to put a face on all of it. Back then I was fearless in who I played and have found that the top pro in this area was  a guy I had beaten then. Now. after a 28 year layoff I'm wondering what in the world am I thinking, playing these kids. But you know what? The things I brought to the game then are still there and they still do the same things regardless of what the game has changed into. I don't have what it takes to beat Freddy, Papas, Spree(or you) at my age. But in 1980 I would have loved to have played you or someone like Freddy, sure I most likely would have lost but I would have gotten some attention as well or more. Then the game was wide open, I ask myself why not, still, today? So here we are, not just me but a bunch of us guys that remember foos from a time when we poured our hearts and souls into the game only to have the rug pulled out from under us. We invented play, studied and mastered techniques and shots that are still used today. Now we, as boomers, want to play again, remembering everything but now have to learn a different feel that never was part of our game and find that everything has a name to describe every move and shot and defense. That's not bad, just different. So we give it to you young guys because that is how life goes. Is what you younger guys use a better way to go than what we did? Probably so, at least for these tables, but most of us still will sing our song. The thing is is that us older guys don't mind hearing what has been learned about the game. We can play for the joy of it and do. I love watching an accomplished player, I love competing with that player. You just got to love this game,,,

Offline papafoos

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 05:16:48 PM »
Quote
I don't have what it takes to beat Freddy, Papas, Spree(or you) at my age.


First of all, you need an attitude adjustment.  If you don't think you can beat someone, you're probably right.

I realize my game sucks now, but when I step up to the table, I think I'm still good enough to beat whoever it is on the other side of the table.  I only play about twice a month now, and my game shows it.  But that doesn't mean I can't win. (or at least I've convinced myself)

So step up to the table with a little confidence and slop 'em if you have to.  And remember, you're only as old as the women you feel.(or somethin' like that)

Offline Steve

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 08:02:22 PM »
You are what you think you are not what you think you are. ;)

Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 10:24:24 PM »
Oh, don't get me wrong Papa foos, I'm just using a little humility so as not to put these guys on guard should they have to play me;) I'm 54 years old, not 64 so I'm a younger boomer. I do enjoy talking with and learning from those who have continued to play during that time when I didn't. And I really enjoy continuing to learn about this game. I love to invent shots and I have a few that I use that I found on these Tornados, ones that I don't see others use. My game always had been keep'em guessing. I've learned every shot I ever saw and give a different look to every opponent because of it. It may not fit the methods adhered to by today's players so then beat me because of it if you can. That is the beauty of this game, there are as many ways to play it as there are players. I love a wide open game,,,

Offline papafoos

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2008, 09:05:28 AM »
You're forgiven.  You're still young and have lots of time. ;)

But just to expand on what I was saying.  Foosball is such a fast moving sport that even a short letdown can cost you a match.  If I didn't think I could beat the best players occasionally, I could save my hotel and flight money and just mail my entry fee to Belgium.

I have a thick skull.  Lord knows I've had enough beatings.  I'm just waiting for that moment when Fred bows down to me.  At least I have fun trying.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: The switch of the 2 man on defense
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2008, 10:41:52 PM »
Foosball.com General Chat Forum
0701K8: 10:25 PM

This is a very interesting discussion, with all the switch vs noswitch, shake motions to confuse the forward, etc...

We learn D here in Florida, by having watched Bobby and Terry and Tom and Mike Yore, and Russ King or Todd even, of course, over the last two decades.  From both sides.  It's funny, but it's math, although more like poker or cardcounting math than algebraic equations. It's extremely simple.  The honorable Mr. Ronzilla O calls them "Trigger Points", according to Kyle and the other guys who come and visit from Michigan.  We call them "Release Points" or "Killshot Lanes".

Most good rookies & low semipros have one killshot and one lane (spray or square-on) that they practice to the point of madness.  And perhaps another less practiced lane (same style shot or another, doesn't really matter).  DVD's and streaming online championships bear this out.  More experienced experts and pros have two solid kill lanes, perhaps a third.  Pro masters have three or more, which is probably why their friends and associates think them mad when they're practicing.

From a baseball standpoint, the goalkeeper is like a batter (no RBIs of course) protecting the plate.  Whatever the skill level of the pitcher, you cannot let the pitcher get in the groove, meaning the batter is leaving the kill lane/s open.  Or fakes covering it and then leaves it open.  Look to yourselves when you practice shooting: Do you shoot a thousand times through the first far dot, then shoot the next thousand through the point between the first two far dots, then the 2nd dot, and so forth?

Not at all ... most humans will shoot and practice 1-3 kill lanes or release points.  And their body memory remembers better each time they practice or shoot those lanes. What are the five basic lanes? Straight, 1/4, split, 3/4, and long?  A lot of pullshooters will pick, say a pump through the 1/4 and the long, whether they square or dbar it, or they spray from the the 3/4 dot.  Many snakers will have a very square long on one side and a spray 3/4 to the long on the other side.  Or some other mix.

At the higher levels of play, even if the goalkeeper does heavy motion or stands still like Bobby or goes Mr. Smoothie like Todd and Terry, or mixes it up..  if the goalkeeper has done their homework and checked what lanes the forwards shoot almost 95% of the  time... (hopefully less than 3) they can brick the other ProMaster or Pro.  Even if one blocks at the high level very well for a game, maybe two, an opposing experience forward can shoot the same lanes with the same stroke, just by adjusting their feet, 2inches back, an inch more to the right, etc..    Thus you can have blowouts for a game, then bricks the next.

Better forwards will have a very consistent "automatic" and this is special because if that is open within the splitsecond they are ready, it's gone.  The "automatic" can be a "7" from one side of the big dot to the other, or either white line of the small box, or perhaps a 3/4 or a pump.  The "automatic" is the ultimate body memory shot (see Michael Jordan shooting blind).  Do you really think Tracy or Johnny Horton or even Rico will shoot a lane (angled or square on) they haven't spent over 10-15 years burning into their left brain and their right musculature?  Do you see why some motions are so wasteful, blocking points they will shoot through maybe 3 percent of the time or less?

Whether you move, or jump from point to point (you know these guys on video), you just make sure your goalkeeper and either 2bar player is blocking 2 of the probable kill lanes.  How? by watching them... as much as you can.. their kill lanes won't change.  Michael Jordan never just started shooting hook shots from different perimeter spots instead of his jumper - he never felt like it.  At Pedro Martinez' or Rocket's peaks, they didn't suddenly develop a curve ball to a different strikezone corner or a splitfinger to the knees they hadn't practiced for at least thousands of times!  Think about it..

The better the scorer, the more consistent their kill lanes are!  Against an expert, say with 65 percent longs and 27 percent straights, whatever your motion or non-motion, if you can have your players blocking those lanes at the point of shooting, you have a great chance to brick them.  Against a stronger forward, with 2 kill lanes and perhaps a decent third lane, if you can consistently have your goalkeeper player and either 2bar blocking their "favorite" lanes, they cannot consistently shoot better than 33%!

So hang a player (goalkeeper or 2bar) to block the "automatic" during each first half second when the forward is ready to shoot, and also during each "lull" when you can see them reset their waiting series. Use the other player to block the other holes.  You yourselves that are forwards know how super it feels to groove to your favorite two lanes!  Your passing gets better, your whole game improves! But even on nights that you're mi***ting and somehow scoring on off-lanes, it doesn't feel good at all!  Just like hitting your head against a brick wall, again and again.  And you know how bad it feels when they just seem to be covering exactly where you want to shoot.

Doesn't matter what style you use or what you try to convince the forward you're doing (who, in their mind's eye, probably doesn't even see or hear you if they've practiced enough).  You have to be at two of the release points at the moment of shooting!  And you have to sit on their absolute favorite automatic lane, perhaps almost 80% of the time.  Wild huh?  Just watch (preferably while they're playing others) how many times the forward shoots a shot and at which lanes.  Remember the percentages and which is the automatic!

Switching back and forth? Don't know the forward's fave lane or two?  Go neutral & cut the goal area into five imaginary swaths.  Standard or reverse or far 2bar reverse.. a shaking motion between 4 different areas should basically cover 80% of the goal!  Ex.  near 2bar going from the near (straight) dot to the pump (2/3rd dot) while the goalkeeper shakes between the big dot (split) and the long. Or whatever combination you want.  This is usually good enough against rookies and low semipros.  But if they adjust, then you have to remember their lanes and how far sideways they adjust.  But know the percentages.. and then it really becomes a game.

That's my 2000 cents, speaking of gas, hopefully some of you will make sense of it.. Works down here!  And I still laugh.. its all math and percentages!  But then you poker players know all about that, too!