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Spredeman Singles Final Video

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Spredeman Singles Final Video
« on: October 03, 2008, 05:59:51 PM »
Just a little taste of Tony's overpowering performance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeSaJgcdcc

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 08:38:57 PM »
that was amazing from both players...Tony, wow!!  also, the sound from the table was new for me and it is very very compelling..."i like it olat"

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 11:32:30 PM »
that was amazing from both players...Tony, wow!!  also, the sound from the table was new for me and it is very very compelling..."i like it olat"

Don't get too attached to that wonderful tic tac'ing sound, especially as the new soft Tornado ITSF'ish balls come in.  The Euro's know that the harder balls allow for faster tic tacs and allow their best to get dominated, even overwhelmed, by Americans like Tony Spredeman.

Another hurdle for American style non-pinned passing, but which plays perfectly into making Euro style more of a match for it.   I'm not saying there's an obvious conspiracy to make Euro style more dominating in American tournaments, but hey, it is what it is.  I just hope Tony continues to adjust to that softer ball, which is like the NBA changing the basketball pressure to prevent fast hard dribbling and allow more gripping for those dunks. Dumbed down...

I prefer to watch more practiced and more highly skilled players dribbling the hard ball and still retain control, not seeing weaker nimrods who never put the time in to left hand practice and ball control, show the new tricks.  Why not use a g*d damned  nerf foosball then?  I spent a few years playing with those super grippy balls, which I also enjoyed, but it doesn't bring out the best, and discourages less practice and stress on ball control, which I realized was extremely stupid.  I'm sick of all these people wanting to play with the grippier balls because it makes their lives easier.  Let's put a governor on all racing bikes and formula 1 racing and run it all then, at 50 mph.  Or soften the Major League baseball so it doesn't homer as often but stays in play instead.  Or change all tennis courts to sand shale so all the duffers have a chance of  returning well-executed power shots.

I hope Brunswick spins off Valley-Tornado and sells it to Sportcraft & Harvard Sports.  Hopefully these often maligned companies would definitely not run supposedly world class events like morons.  Oh yeah, so Dave Radack would've run it better?  Well he wasn't there, but no, that's a great excuse: Our correct choice Dave wasn't there, so we have to use these nitwits to run it now.  THAT IS NO EXCUSE.  We are lucky that those rockhard balls were in play so that the pros with dominant hardball control came through as in Master Singles, Pro Singles, Pro Doubles, Open Doubles and Open Singles.  Rico was in those, because he practices hardball play.  Mickey Suwaidi doubled in the Pro events, and Ryan and Tony and Rico and TMac and Gumby were there.  We shouldn't change the face of American foosball because of some TOOL in Nice, who couldn't give two sh*ts about American foosball, just how much money they can make off the US.

Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2008, 12:11:06 AM »
Tell us how you really feel.....

Offline papafoos

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2008, 03:10:52 AM »

Quote
Dumbed down...

Fits the new serve too.

And while we're at it, why not take out the back wall so it will be easier for beginners to score.  We might be able to compete with poker yet.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2008, 05:41:30 PM »
Quote
Dumbed down...
Fits the new serve too.   And while we're at it, why not take out the back wall so it will be easier for beginners to score.  We might be able to compete with poker yet.   

Exactly!  Here's what I said in the other thread:
Yes, Tony's series is monstrous,  ....
.........
Keep the balls relatively hard, round and even-bouncing and the US can keep stepping on the Euro and other players, as they so richly deserve, bragging about their ball control with balls and men that our grandparents could have controlled.  Players who want grippy, forgiving balls so they can override their nervousness, lack of practice, and lack of experience in ball control, DO NOT DESERVE TO PLAY in premiere events.  That's like lowering the high bar by 1 foot in a high jump Nationals or Olympics, so that duff amateurs can compete.   Does that make sense?  That's how stupid and inane ITSF recommendations are.  These guys want the equivalent of us sending NFL playoff-level teams to play their Premiere FIFA teams in a game of soccer, because they know exactly what will happen to their teams if they played even US College Football BCS teams in a game of American football.

Go Spredey!  Keep demoralizing and humiliating their *sses.  Then kick em in the teeth and other places while they're down.

Tell us how you really feel.....

You bet, Nate!  Either we fight this dumbing down or the Worlds may be played with Wii's or Xbox 360's, thumb aerobics anyone?

Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 10:01:54 AM »
After reading some of the posts here I get the impression that the countless European players playing on the Tornado tour finally managed to gain enough influence and now the gear is changed in their favour. Would anyone care telling me who all those malicious Euro players are? Who's responsible for all that hatred? 

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 04:55:37 PM »
I think it started with the Brits back in the 1700's...the love (this is sarcasm) on the "new American" grew from country to country over the years, and these country to country relationships have been, well on and off ever since...a lot of the comments I have read (not limited to this thread) on this subject sound to be primarily be born from a general prejudice

- as a general rule, Euros don't want to be Americanized and American's don't want to be French (just kidding...) American's dont want to be told what to do and don't want to be (insert country name there _____________ized ).

look at the recent Riders Cup, man that was, well, what would be the best way to put it?...Spirited?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 06:18:29 PM »
  After reading some of the posts here I get the impression that the countless European players playing on the Tornado tour finally managed to gain enough influence and now the gear is changed in their favour. Would anyone care telling me who all those malicious Euro players are? Who's responsible for all that hatred? 

BodyG,
It's not, I repeat, not a hate of Euro players, who will always be welcome for their adventuresomeness, conviviality, support, and openness at US events.  It is more the over two decades long enmity between Tornado-Valley (before Brunswick took over) as its superiorly designed and manufactured table began to dominate the US foosball market, and its US players and promoters/distributors, who were basically its main market. 

Tornado's durability and consistency as a product overwhelmed the then major Tournament Soccer, or TS Million Dollar Tour, which was ridden with "wildcat", barely legitimate tours that saw rampant drug abuse as was endemic everywhere anyway in the mid 80's, by very common large "under the table" cash prizes looked upon by the IRS (US Treasury) as a standard money laundering tool, and outright theft by promoters that absconded with the money and are still being hunted abroad.

Many of the TS players had started on tour and turned it into a giant party held on most US national holiday weekends, mixed with several Regional Super Events.  A Golden Age, as they say.  If you have ever experienced the early to mid80's in Europe, these tour events paid very well, had a roaming superparty that followed the tour all over, similar to the 90's roving hordes of weekender ravers that started in Ibiza, Spain, where English hooligans mixed with whitecollar decadents from all over Western Europe, and the super European rich and their kids, who had castles, estates and yachts at nearby Mallorca, Telerica and Telleriz.

TS dominance gave way to Dynamo, which was in turn absorbed by Tornado, which had a great product & got the overwhelming approval of promoters who ran coin-op concessions all over the US.  New groups of soon-to-be-elite players started playing in arcades and sportsbar/collegiate gamerooms.  Attracted by similar reasons to the tour, a newer tourgroup evolved.  But this time, they'd been weaned off Dynamos into Tornado's US power foosball, as designed by Ed McCloud.  This is the dominant US style today, with one major component that came along with the new Tornado ball introduced in the early 90's.

The new ball did not chip and remained smooth, allowing a new shot, the snake or rollover, to emerge, vs the older balls which had cracks, chips and craters and were basically pucks.  Terry Moore, former pullshooter like most proMasters, perfected the snake attack and allowed even more power, more reliably to be included in US foosball.  This loud, relatively easy to learn shot, began a new era, as almost all new foosers used this combo of pin control and palmrolling power to start a new youth movement that still rankles a lot of the old guard.

About the same time that Tornado was dominating US foos and looking towards world markets, several players started questioning Tornado's and later Valley's absolute control of the tour.  Many organizations and groups were formed to give a voice to the players' needs.  They wanted more say in the tour, since US players had always been foosball's money cow and customers.  For obvious reasons, Tornado and Valley did not welcome or respond very well to these calls to surrender their monopoly.  They were, as any business, reluctant to react, especially with cheaper Asian knockoffs and European competition as their number one worry.  So the players have always had subgroups who do not trust any monopoly and speak out whenever there is any question about tables, table parts, or event management that distresses or takes advantage of the lower, non-elite players who pay for the brunt of major and regional events.  Just as any democratic American should be, especially in any "unfree" market.

If you don't believe this, then Mary Moore, IFP, Brendan Flaherty, and the Warrior Table are figments of your imagination.  There are ALSO players who also just want the status quo, who take Tornado-Valley's side almost the whole time, because their agenda is to internationalize and expand foosball, ASAP, no matter what.  They regard any player, local or regional control similar to that of Bowling, Pool, Darts, and other leagues/hobbies/sports/games as a threat.  A lot of player activists can often go overboard, of course, so the players/officials on Valley-Tornado's side will disparage and attack activists, telling them to shut up already, getting personal sometimes, WITHOUT ANY COUNTER-ARGUMENTS or reasons why this or that feature or this or that shouldn't be that unfair.  Yes they are what you would typically call FASCISTS or SUPERCAPITALISTS - Anyone that tells complaining others to pipe down without any arguments or logical refutals.

Going back to your question on resentment.  Players had been asking for changes to the tables for years and were ignored, with Tornado-Valley going about their own improvements and changes, confident that they had a stranglehold on the US market and also had the sanction of the ITSF.  Then changes that were requested or recommended by the ITSF were basically implemented less than one year after introducing the new "fridge" Tornado, to become standard the day after Worlds.  So Tornado-Valley will ignore their own market for a decade and listen to the ITSF suggestions.  This is the same as the US Tennis Association, or USTA, ignoring US players and members's requests for years, then suddenly listening to the European federation and replacing all US HarTru and other hardcourts used in Open play with red clay.  It is ridiculous and quite insulting to US players.  If the USTA did this bonehead thing, then suddenly all major events would of course be amenable and advantageous to the 30-70 European players, but absolutely humiliating and contradictory to the thousands and thousands of USTA players.

Do you now see where this enmity is and why it's growing?  Sure there are detractors of Valley-Tornado who go overboard and turn it into a personal vendetta.  But the fact remains is that Valley-Tornado has been very protective and insular of its monopolistic socialist stranglehold on US Foosball, until recently, that is.  I've run my own businesses, so I can't really fault them.. US foosball allowed Valley-Tornado's monopoly to grow, to they have to live with it.  So there is no hate or resentment of Euro players, just the question, why make it easier for them at US events, and jack all the Americans after 20+ years of US style power foosball?  And there is more admiration of Rico's example (ala Nadal and Federer) of his ability to dominate on any table or any style.  Converting Tornado tables to more of a Euro style destroys the variety, destroys the diversity of world or international foosball, and alienates thinking players trying to promote US foosball with idiotic "Pipe down", "enough already", and other name-calling phrases, even on this board.  No arguments or counter reasoning, just the party line.  This will always lead to a lot of anger and resentment.

Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 04:44:38 AM »
Wow, Foozkillah, THAT made it clear to me - thank you very much for taking such a lot of time to write this excursus on American Foosball history...

So the ITSF and Tornado-Valley's submissiveness to them are the real villains in this drama? In this case you might have more fellow travelers among European Foosers than you think...

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 05:35:13 PM »
I really enjoyed the read FK

My view…

US Players have shown serious displeasure with ITSF from the second the ITSF entered the picture.  US Players thought they were superior to Euro players since the 70’s (superior in skillz and foosball evolution and history).  US players have always thought Euro foos lacked the discipline of “real” tournament foosball.  US players have always felt their table (TS, Dynamo, Tornado) was superior and has always felt the Euro tables were cheap made bush league attempts at a “real” foosball table. (I don’t think this is true, I just believe it has been the prevailing thought)

Many players resent ITSF simply because they are not American…others feel like the US game was sold out to the ITSF without so much as a thought for how the US player would feel and without consideration for the history and tradition of the US tournament game.

FACT:  The US game was sold out to the ITSF without the feedback or consensus of US players.  This is undisputable fact.
This was most clearly illustrated when the US rules of foosball were abandoned for “universal” international foosball rules of the ITSF.  Note:  The US rules were used as a basis for creating these rules and a high profile US official was involved with heading up the committee to draft the rules (and is current Head Official).

The US rules were developed over 30 years and although they were not perfect they represented years of evolution.  95%+ of these rules were adopted by the ITSF but there were a few key ones that were changed and these represented fundamental US foosball game protocol - most notable change is the service rule (now handset in the middle with “ready” protocol – all because Euro tables don’t have serving holes---ouch).

The main issue with this change for US tournament players is that the US game lost sovereignty over its own future. In the end, this is probably THE most significant issue for US players. 
Outside of foosball, the attitude of Americans is that they do not like being told what to do.  In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war? 

So to be told by some non-American organization how our tournaments should be run and what our tables should be like is like a double whammy.  Add to that that the US players believe that real tournament foosball was developed here in the US and you have the makings for some emotional blowback.

Considering these facts, it is a slap in the face when an organization years, maybe decades behind the US in terms of tournament evolution and knowledge, tell us “US Americans” what to do and then take over tournament foosball which “we” defined and matured.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 05:46:42 PM »
Why was the game sold out? 
Because US tournament foosball was controlled by a table manufacturer and not by an independent organization (like the NFL is for football) and because the US players did not have and do not have a players union.  Even if the US game was not controlled by a table company, the players have no voice and no power to shape their own destiny.

Tornado was this table manufacturer and they made the move because they thought it might create some new revenue for their company.  Tornado was not concerned with the US player, they thought that was a done deal, plus I am sure they convinced themselves (and this would not take much to do) that it would be better for the US player in the long run.  Further, I think Tornado was happy to hand off primary responsibility for tournament play, overall game development and recognition, and player development since Tornado only did it as a matter of historical default.  Mainly I believe Tornado thought it would make them more money and open the European market to them where, outside of Britain, the Tornado was as hard to find as a virgin in Vegas.

Why was the game sold out?
Same question?  Well, yea but different answer.  Tornado is the fall guy for anyone who dislikes losing our foosball sovereignty to Europe.  However, I think there is a more fundamental reason the US lost control of its own tournament foosball.
LEADERSHIP…
•  US Tournament Foosball and the overall development of foosball in the US has never had a visionary high-level 
    non-table specific leader.

•  US Tournament Foosball lacks a powerful players union.

If either of these were in place before the ITSF came along things would be way way different right now.  As a matter of fact, if the first was in place, there may never have been an ITSF.

What can good visionary leadership accomplish?
Well, there will be many who don’t like me saying this but the truth is, Farid Lounas is a dynamic visionary leader – forget him as a person or a Frenchman and look at what he has accomplished.  Look at what the ITSF has accomplished in just a few years, it is staggering. 

Like him or not, like the ITSF or not, it doesn’t change the fact that this man has laid out a plan and accomplished more for organizing foosball in just a couple years than anyone else (I would say) in foosball history.  The TS golden era was quite a ride but it lacked the vision of the ITSF and it was the result of a table manufacture’s  sales/marketing plan and the foosball craze that swept the US in the mid to late 70’s (which was not a product of TS or any marketing plan, it was simply a passing fad).  TS just jumped on the foosball fad that rocked the US and rode it until TS’s short-sighted business plan collapsed like a house of cards literally overnight.

I don’t like that the US doesn’t have its own identity and that we have lost control of our game to someone else.  At the same time, I can’t blame anyone except the US because no US leader/visionary has stepped up to paint, drive, model, and gather resources, to invent/reinvent US foosball.

Really, what the ITSF is doing is mostly good for foosball...globally.  However, it is hard to see the value today for US players (outside of a few who get picked for international trips).

I think the US player base would be all for the ITSF if Farid Lounas was a “US American” and if the ITSF was tilted slightly in our favor…it isn’t bad enough we lost our game to the Euro Foosball elite but we lost it to a Frenchman who’s vision makes us look like cave men.

Our only hope is another table manufacture paired with a promoter…Warrior and IFP but they will become ITSFed as soon as they can I am sure and Mary still uses ITSF rules so we wait while the future of US foosball is shaped primarily by those outside the US.

By the way, take a good look around the ITSF website, a good long look, nothing like it in foosball, and it illustrates the power of the ITSF vision.

http://www.table-soccer.org/
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 05:49:17 PM by bbtuna »

Offline Will17

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 06:15:54 PM »
the attitude of Americans is that they do not like being told what to do.  In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war? 

I hate to turn this into a political arguement, but seriously is that what the text books say in the states?

As far as the ITSF goes I like to see that people appreciate it, because other sports have an international governing body as well as national governing bodies. It just makes sense. Look at Fifa, that has got to be the biggest sporting organization in the world. But the FA(the equivilant of USTSA) in England has a TON of control too. In england they used to hate FIFA, which is an international governing body that stole there sport, at least from there point of view. England didn't even participate in the world cup from 1930 until 1954(i think). They were pretty unquestionably the best team in the world at that time much like the US in foosball right now on tornado. I think the ITSF is doing good things and will promote the sport globally better than anything the US has done so far.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 06:18:08 PM by Will17 »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 10:35:58 PM »
"In general the US doesn’t want European people telling them what to do because we beat them to get this country and weren’t we the ones who bailed them out during the big war? " 

this was meant a little tongue in cheek but generally that is the US view and history

NBA basketball has its own rules and league and there is a separate international set of rules and play - if foosball was like that there would be a lot less push back

I like what the ITSF has done but I don't like giving up our sovereignty but I can only complain so much because we don’t have anyone stepping up here in the US

Killa was saying Tornado table changes were a byproduct of ITSF making the table play of the US game more European as opposed to the other way around

I agree that this was probably the starting point of the changes but I think Warrior and player feedback ended up being significant factors as well

I wanted slightly more control before I knew anything about European tables and long before ITSF came along

Warrior’s table has more control and many of the same design principles that Tornado is trying to implement now and I am confident that Brendan didn’t design his table to please Europe…his ball has way more control, so does his man, you can do banks, and it is a one man goalie…Tornado does that and they are accused of giving into the Euro way and abandoning the US player and history

Re: Spredeman Singles Final Video
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 11:01:39 PM »
I hate to add to contribute to the hijack of the thread, because Tony WAS AWESOME, but...

All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?