Topic: Spredeman Singles Final Video

[foozkillah]

Warrior’s table has more control and many of the same design principles that Tornado is trying to implement now and I am confident that Brendan didn’t design his table to please Europe…his ball has way more control, so does his man, you can do banks, and it is a one man goalie…Tornado does that and they are accused of giving into the Euro way and abandoning the US player and history 

That's because Valley-Tornado has been doing exactly what they want, when they want, with table changes, and several US players have been asking for changes for years.  Then they came out with that "fridge",  supposedly their latest and best'est.  But after meeting with ITSF, they have these new Euro-type changes implemented less than one year after the F5?  That's jumpin' and how high..

I agree, the basic acceptance of Warrior's features may have played a large part in solidifying V-T's reaction and time frame, but it's probably more of a combination of the two.    I also wonder if some enterprising maker will have Chinese or Asian knockoffs of the gray marble or fridge, since the new Tornado's will no longer really match the original supersuccessful-for-20-years design, and flood the market.  There won't be as many legal hurdles for an importer who wants to attack that 80-90% of the US Market that was weaned on the original Tornado.  Any player who's played and competed on Tornado over the last 20 years can immediately start playing, and competing, on a knock-off.

[papafoos]

All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?

Well, that explains one thing.  I knew there was a logical explanation for the warped play field.

[thebodygroove]

All this speculation on the reasons behind changes to the Tornado table is interesting, but I would offer a simpler explanation; an attempt to increase their OUS market share by producing a product more in line with what those players are familiar with. Perhaps?

Sounds reasonable - but I dare to predict that it won't work. The experienced European players who know about Tornado wouldn't regard it as the real thing, and those who are not familiar with the game would never buy an American product as long as they can choose from a variety of top quality tables made in Germany (or France or Italy or Belgium) as well as cheap tables made in China.

By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.   

[TSR_Brad]

Sounds reasonable - but I dare to predict that it won't work. The experienced European players who know about Tornado wouldn't regard it as the real thing, and those who are not familiar with the game would never buy an American product as long as they can choose from a variety of top quality tables made in Germany (or France or Italy or Belgium) as well as cheap tables made in China.

By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.  

A successful strategy or not, I was merely tossing out a possible alternative to all the conspiracy theorists. I have to think that VB's table sales have stagnated a bit in the US and it's only logical (though somewhat uncharacteristic) of Tornado to look beyond their usual market. I also think any changes Tornado has made have absolutely ZERO to do with Warrior. I just think it has to do with trying to increase sales. And if that's the case, they need to worry more about the Harvards or Sportcrafts or Carroms of the world.

[bbtuna]

Brad,
If you are responding to my posts then you missed my points.  I clearly said it was a market decision, much of the rest is merely the veiw many players take who are against the, to them, bad ITSF. 

I didn't say Warrior was the cause for Tornado changes although IN addition to the obvious desire to sell to a different market, there is the fact that Warrior was pushing them AND Tornado could at least appear to meet US player needs. 

I said that Warrior was an example that some of the changes have been on the minds of some US players (like me) for years and Warrior had almost all the same changes planned (different execution mechanically but the same result) apart from Tornado changes or ITSF influence.

Tornado President said in his interview that they made, or at least started, the changes because the ITSF requested them.

I don't think the reason or reasons for the Tornado changes can be attributed to one single thing though I believe that the primary motivation was to provide a table that would sell better in Europe.  However, I think as they started down that path they also decided it would be prudent to consider US player input killing 2 birds with one stone and then at the same time Warrior was coming out and they lost IFP, and this provided a chance for them to address this US market complication.

It is transparent that Tornado is concerned with losing the US market they owned for so long. You can see this with their obvious attempts to communicate more with the US player base, their attempt to try and spin the table changes and their concern for quality as a response to US player feedback (note Dave Corrington's letter verses the Presidents interview), and the annoucement of an expanded "tour" next year adding 2 more events and moving Worlds back to Texas.

[foozkillah]

By the way, this thread really smacks of exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia. Blaming the ITSF for V-T's marketing policy seems all too easy to me. If the Tornado-manufacturers have been consistently disappointing their customers, why have they kept buying those tables? I've never run a business, but I guess I too wouldn't care for my customers' feedback if they kept buying my products anyway. It's called a free market, something which I thought American citizens needn't be taught about.  

BodyG,
iWhat if the US Tennis Association, suddenly found itself in a dominant position in the international tennis federation, like the presidency and other positions, and THEN requested, in the name of homogeneity, that continental European tours (where the clay season is played) switch to hardcourts?  That's OK, because .. "you don't ask, you won't get...."   Can't blame the US federation, or its sponsors, who can sell a ton more Penn and other hardcourt balls, perhaps more hardcourt rackets (still made in Asia, of course) to Europe.  Not a dominant position in the market, but definitely better positioned.

BUT THEN, if the French, Italian, and other Low Country federations suddenly started to follow suit, putting in hardcourts for tournaments within a calendar year....  and Americans start showing up in all the formerly clay Euro tournaments and winning .... Man, do you even get the idea of exactly what kind of "exaggerated nationalism and xenophobia" will be exhibited by European continental tour players and fans?   They will logically resent and hate the US federation and blame them, but they will VILIFY their own national federation/s for selling out.   They're not gonna start hating the Williams sisters for stepping all over everyone except the other foreigners, the Russians, but they will certainly resent their suddenly being able to compete and win without adjustments !

BBTuna and I've tried to explain to you how this is happening with Valley-Tornado's dealings with the ITSF.  I believe many US foosers understandably resent, but not blame Farid Lounas for trying to do his job of internationalizing foosball, which is a laudable effort.   But right now, BECAUSE OF VALLEY-T, it is at the expense of US foosball!  And oh yeah, Valley-Tornado has been the monolithic giant for 20 years, but that's because of the original, almost life-time durable design of the original Tornado and its commercial and private acceptance.  Valley did not invent the Tornado, they inherited it.  So there's no braintrust to even be respected over there.

It took an enterprising promoter named Mary in Kentucky, who started her own tour format with IFP, got other promoters like Charlie into it, to show how slow and a-retentive Valley-T was...  She follows and supports the international movement and of course adopted the new rules, as any good Tornado promoter would do.  An ace and a let and and a fault are an ace, a let, and a fault, as they should be, in any lawn tennis game.  She paid the lower ranks more, in keeping with the money and time these non-pros in the lower half of the pyramid have always been putting into tournaments.  She, and Alan Cribbs with Bonzini as well, found sponsors, which Valley-T should have been doing 10 years ago, instead of using their promotional budgets to send their officials overseas to promote themselves.  They offer more events to allow more people to play.  Quite a difference.

Time and world economics has caught up with Valley-Tornado's management, and I'm sure Brunswick will be evaluating why they haven't been running tournaments that are as complete an entertainment event like other Brunswick brand tournaments, why they haven't been able to get 2 or more major sponsors like "smallfry" Mary and Alan (continuously)have done to defray costs and use the marketing punch of tour events, and why they haven't been responsive to the market like any g*d*mn self-respecting capitalistic corporation should be doing.  Neither of them can afford to just wait out their corporate retirement, while enjoying the perks like regular overseas travel to Paris and Frankfurt, like some relics from the old Tornado barnstorming days, who obviously will let the market go to hell, because they don't have the motivation anymore.

I am sure that Brunswick took over Valley-T to position itself better in the leisure products market, because the new commercial battleground, of course, will be Asia: China and the Pacific Rim nations, as their humongous populations start approaching the leisure time products potential that will dwarf Europe.  Thanks to our new local player, a fine expatriate Canadian, Fred "Shanghai" Gower, who started a small but growing cadre of players at his "dojo" there and led China to second place in the Asian championships in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.  Those were held, by the way, on Tornado, because even the Pacific Rim knows how durable and playable the table design is,

Asians rightly admire American power foosball, AND that includes Frederico in his own US power foosball MODE.    Just as they admire foreign NBA players who show they can be as good and dominant.   But its the NBA that showcases them, nothing else comes close.   Asians know very well that US power foosball, like US basketball, backed by hundreds of locals, dozens of regionals, and national and professional events, over THIRTY YEARS of organized play,  played in the equivalent of 50 nation states, is WHERE IT IS STILL AT.  Shanghai Fred's now with us, living in Miami, but he left that indelible mark there.   And the best player there in Asia, who also plays in South Florida when he can, Miqdad "Mickey" Suwaidi, has already made inroads with Cespedes-Martin by doubling the Pro (non-Open) events this recent Worlds in Las Vegas.  And manufacturers Leonhard, TecBall, Lehmacher, Warrior, Legend, et al (where the hell's Valley?) already have firm firm feet and factories planted there.

And if Valley-T continues to abandon their US player base for whatever reason, Asian factories are hungry and ready for the US market.  Potential?  Overall, probably at least 3000 tour & locals players, maybe another 1000 family & residence hall locations, and maybe another 2000 sportsbars, community centers, gamerooms and parlors.  That's 3 to 5 million Euros every two-three  years if there's a tour to support and sponsor it, PLUS parts and PLUS other complementary products like dartboards, dart machines, video stands, and pool tables.   Duhhhh?  You can also immediately realize, it's good practice, before Asia deals with its own potential, what 10-20,000 players???  And yes, they like to drink, gamble and sing karaoke, too.

[bbtuna]

Killa,
you said, "BBTuna and I've tried to explain to you how this is happening with Valley-Tornado's dealings with the ITSF..."

I appreciate your response and as always you are detailed and articulate but I am apparently a little slow because I don't get what you are trying to explain to me.  I fully understand everything you wrote previously and I fully understand what you wrote this time and I assume based on the "I've tried to explain to you" that you feel I have missed something and that you are trying to make clear to me.

Like I said, I like your writing and appreciate your comments but nothing you have said is new to me, I fully get your perspective, and I am not certain we are at odds at any point.  If so, please point it out and I will argue with you or submit your way or convince you of the error of your thinking

[foozkillah]

BBT,

I was just emphasizing to BodyG that we were both saying it wasn't some evil conspiracy by the ITSF, but absolute resentment of Valley-T's actions to listen and act on ITSF's suggestions, with no input from its hand that feeds it, US foosers.

I believe I gave a very apt example, using the tennis analogy, with national federations and an international (especially the Open era professional one) body.   Just to highlight how ludicrous Valley-T and its failed 10yr promotions and growth projects are.

And the final part about Asia was to highlight that despite all the damage Valley-T's negligence and whatever funky vision Farid and his ITSF have, and DESPITE all his detractors or critics as well, There is a sleeping giant that will eventually make none of them matter.  And they play a mix of Tornado or US power foosball style and Euro.  Neither of which would have ever come to be and contributed to world foosball techniques and success if they had all played on one homologated table.

[ZekeNDestroy]

It's funny cause a softer ball would make it easier to tic tac. Aso, havent you read all the posts where people hate the hard balls, and how how everyone pretty much unanimously
agrees that the fussier balls are better. Not sure where the Euro conspiracy theory came about.

-zeke

[foozkillah]

It's funny cause a softer ball would make it easier to tic tac. Aso, havent you read all the posts where people hate the hard balls, and how how everyone pretty much unanimously
agrees that the fussier balls are better. Not sure where the Euro conspiracy theory came about.
-zeke 

I agree, that softer balls would make for an easier tic tac.  On the one hand, yes it increases beginners' playability and decreases their time to develop that one, maybe two, passing series they will use until they die.

Which is why it is a much harder skill level to dribble the current most common Tornado balls.  A lot more practice and lot more dedication.  Players who have fast tic tac series live at a higher pulse than the others, especially those who would develop these to the highest degree.   From watching and living competitive foosball for over 25 years over four continents, I would have to say very few players at the tournament level would have ever developed the number of tic tac series on the 5bar with a softer, stickier ball.  Instead they would have developed the multiple back and front pin series, just as the TS players here and the Euro players have developed.  Unless you can show me some monster tic tac'ers from those players.  And a lot of oldtimers, who curiously don't have any decent tic tac 5bar series compared to the newcomers that started with Tornado, keep whining and complaining about the snake/rollover, conveniently forgetting that they're still losing most of their games because the younger rollover gang keeps GETTING THE FRIGGIN BALL with much better passing.

The best & most dedicated foosers, playing in a harder, stricter environment, those who conquer it, have absolutely no problem dumbing down their 5bar series on a slower table, and are monstrous at an enviroment like that with rockhard balls.   They don't whine like others, who don't even have a busted spine, they just bust through it.  Know anybody like that?  Someone who could represent the best of the best in American power foosball ballcontrol and passing ? Some World Champion maybe?

Similar to the professional billiards tour, where they have the absolute fastest tables, with a touch required that brings out the very best, the most extreme. The most practiced, who will dominate people playing them on the slower "kiddie" tables, and absolutely step on them on a professional table.  It brings out the absolute best, the ones willing to practice and perform at the edge, despite pain and stress.  You also see this with tennis on grass, with the speed and low, often bad bounces.  That is why Wimbledon, hands down, is the most prestigious of all tournaments in tennis.

Normal players?  I wouldn't mind playing easy "chump" courses in golf, either, but I would never wish to have Augusta National or Pebble Beach reworked with 2 ft wide bunkers, no water, and inch high rough.  Of course I'd love to play the "chump" courses if I were playing with some good pros.   So I wouldn't do as bad, just as those who want the softer balls are asking.   But otherwise, I'd want them to be even harder, so I can see the best playing the best.  I have no interest in watching amateurs play on dumbed down tables, and I would rather watch & emulate the elite players, AND BUY their promoted products.   I would rather watch NASCAR and Formula 1 than races with cars my grandma could drive to the grocery.

[bbtuna]

FK,

okay, now we can disagree - you present it like the change takes you to cork balls...

you present this like an either or/black or white issue open and shut case...two extremes....it isn't like that, we are NOT going from Grass to Clay or hardcourt to clay...we are talking about a small move from hardcourt toward clay - again NOT to clay, just toward clay

Your assumption is that the ball and table changes are "dumbing down" Tornado and I don't think that is fair.  These are NOT wholesale changes they are tweaks and they are designed to make the table play more complete and more accessible to more people not ruin what you present as the best table play ever made.  These tweaks are meant to be done without losing Tornado's distinctives.

I can't speak for Tornado completely since they haven't declared their final ball choice but I can speak to the Warrior ball which I have played with (on Tornado).  Also, I know people who have played with one on Warrior and one of these people owns a Warrior table. 

This ball isn't anything like the extreme differences you are talking about but it is a difference and in my opinion, and many others, it improves the game.  The player who owns the Warrior is a budding pro who is a tic tac freak and he absolutely loves the ball and it has done nothing to slow down his interest in tic tac, if anything, it has made him even more aggressive.

Everyone I have read, PM's and down, like the ball and consider it an improvement.  The only complaint has been that lower level players can catch the ball like a PM.  It could be argued that this makes competition better not worse.  Irnoically the most frustrated person I read was Tony because he thought his extra work on the table was somewhat neutralized.  Thing is, all the same best players won at Warrior so I think the extra catching is overstated as far as its impact to the game...in the end, talent and practive still win out all things being equal.

Your comments about Tornado players dominating on the so called "dumbed down" tables is just not true...you don't need to look any further than Billy's record in Europe and the US at the first World Cup.

I understand the general principle I started on TS and it was such a hard table to play on going to other tables seemed easier in many ways.  Funny, even with these table changes the Warrior doesn't have any more control, probably a little less, than the TS brown top I still own.

The other table changes on Tornado are to try and make the table to allow a fuller game i.e. banks and angles allowing it to do what TS and other tables always could do.

Foosball needs to be more accessible to more people, if making it easier to play for beginners and accomplishing this creates some compromise, I think it is short-sighted, even selfish, to not go forward.

Now, I have stated on other threads I think this should happen with a series of balls...
Beginner - which is shipped with every home model - softest ball - very soft, tons of control
Tournament Level 1 - for people who want to get more serious and move toward playing tournaments
Bar Ball - current Tor red, maybe even harder
Proffesional Tournament Ball - Tornado Red hardness minus a couple %

[foozkillah]

BBT,

you present this like an either or/black or white issue open and shut case...two extremes....it isn't like that, we are going from Grass to Clay or hardcourt to clay...we are talking about a small move from hardcourt toward clay - again NOT to clay, just toward clay

Going to the softer ball and changing the men's feet is not a gradual or small move.  I would describe this as comparable to when they allowed Premiere League and FIFA players to add or even incorporate the vulcanized rubber strips on the front (contact) uppers of their strikers' shoes.  Allowing "hook" and "curveball" shots previously impossible.  I can understand a lot of the former TS players wanting to go back to the old symmetrically rounded feet, but the equivalent of using a spaghetti racket is not minor.

Everyone I have read, PM's and down, like the ball and consider it an improvement.  The only complaint has been that lower level players can catch the ball like a PM.  It could be argued that this makes competition better not worse.  Irnoically the most frustrated person I read was Tony because he thought his extra work on the table was somewhat neutralized.  Thing is, all the same best players won at Warrior so I think the extra catching is overstated as far as its impact to the game...in the end, talent and practive still win out all things being equal.

Extra work .. exactly..  So you're suggesting that the non-elite runners in the 100-meter dash at the Olympics or World Championships only have to run 90 meters?  So a lot of players that never put in that extra amount of practice or time or intensity can now compete?  Of course that will make the competition better!  That would also be contrived, and not make foosball better.  And just as a pool shark will give out a spot to a duffer, say the 8 or 7-8 ball to win, the pool shark will still win most of the games, but duffers who have no business being there will be allowed to survive longer than they deserve to be.  Aint no spots in professional championships.  You could say I'm closer to a purist.  Perhaps for the non Open events, I could agree, but not for Open.  Oh and yeah, just as I said, Tony Spredeman's statements about his extra work being neutralized.. He still won but games took a lot longer than they should have, because nimrods who had no business surviving that long were doing so.  Along with the additional game lengths and conflicts thus generated,,, it just screws up a tournament.

I can't speak for Tornado completely since they haven't declared their final ball choice but I can speak to the Warrior ball which I have played with (on Tornado).  Also, I know people who have played with one on Warrior and one of these people owns a Warrior table. 

Nobody speaks for Tornado, at least no US players..  They're like the Willy Wonka factory and their Oompah Loompahs only take orders from your buddy , Farid .......    JUST KIDDING!!!!     And I have no problems with the Warrior table or balls.  They're going their own way, with US input.  What a concept!!

Your comments about Tornado players dominating on he so called "dumbed down" tables is just not true...you don't need to look any further than Billy's record in Europe and the US at the first World Cup.

Yes, it may take Billy a bit, before he went and won his first Euro championship, which he doesn't practice for. And he stopped seriously practicing (from him) after he proved he could win and dominate in 05.  But he has the "hole-shot" into travelling there and his previous history.  What do you think TMac and Tony would do there?   So where is this argument leading?  That if you're a US fooser, started going to Euro and World Cups, you're going to have to dominate immediately, not take time like even Rico did or Dieter Thiele before him?  So the Austrians must be the friggin best pound-for-pound foosers on the planet?   And they can go and kick Canadian, Belgian, US, French and Italian *sses all over ?  What are you saying Billy's record in Europe proves?  Let's see how the Coulters and other young'uns start faring since they won't have the disadvantage of not playing on those tables during their formative years.

Rico said he won every match he played, but that format won't allow him to play in 5 of the 9 matches, so he must really be weak.  Just like Billy.

Now, I have stated on other threads I think this should happen with a series of balls...
Beginner - which is shipped with every home model - softest ball - very soft, tons of control
Tournament Level 1 - for people who want to get more serious and move toward playing tournaments
Bar Ball - current Tor red, maybe even harder
Proffesional Tournament Ball - Tornado Red hardness minus a couple %

I agree with using dumbed-down easier-to-control features for beginners and rookies.  I believe Pro and Open championship tables and features should be at the extreme, to showcase the best's abilities to adapt and dominate on a very hard (meaning tough) playing field.  Just like it is in billiards, bowling, golf, and tennis.

I don't know if I'm alone, but I would rather play on the harder tables with the better players.  I might not be as good as them, but I don't wish to be comfortable and suddenly be able to do things I never practiced, I like the edge and I don't mind the beatdowns.  I just practice harder and try to figure out how to change my play, especially when a new shot, defense, or system shows up in the play.  And no, I don't think the Warrior is dumbed-down.  I like that ball right now, but Oompah-Loompahs have proved they could go to cork balls if so suggested for Valley-T.  Maybe because the French say pleeeeeaase.

Obviously many others just want to play at that table in the corner, with the duffers, non-tournament players, and beginners.  You see this at a lot of venues..  So to each their own.

[bbtuna]

first two sections I won't quote because these are long enough already but the changes aren't anything near the extreme examples you give

"Along with the additional game lengths and conflicts thus generated,,, it just screws up a tournament."

you are just reacting to change...no not reacting but Over-reacting...your examples, proposed impacts, and assumption of motives read like extreme sweeping over-exaggerations

there is no evidence it “screws up a tournament”  KY ran fine and the right people won…what is screwed up, a few PM’s had to take a little longer to waste their weaker competition?  I hardly call this screwed up, for those playing below it let them play slightly longer and made them feel good to snag some balls they didn’t used to get at.  Some might argue this made the tournament better.

“Nobody speaks for Tornado…Oompah Loompahs” way too funny, I’ll file that for future use…very funny

You said, "Yes, it may take Billy a bit…"
I only brought Billy up as one example but no American hard court player has gone over to the “dumbed down” Euro style tables and dominated.  The fact that they are the best of the US Tornado hard court players means, and according to your previous statements, that they should be able to totally dominate on those inferior tables.  But, this hasn’t happened in the last 2 ½ to 3 years that the top US players have been going over there including Billy’s long stay this year.  Tommy A was the closest last year but he is just a pure freak and you could put pea sized marbles on a polished stone surface with men that had hard polished dense metal feet with no ridges and he would go deadman with his eyes closed while you pulled on the deadman rod and collapsed the bumper as much as you could.

Don’t bring Rico up, it will do nothing to bolster your argument.

You said, “I don't know if I'm alone, but I would rather play on the harder tables with the better players.”

I don’t have to decide its either or…Warrior or a slightly modified Tornado will not keep the next Tony S from appearing any more than those dumbed down Euro tables (as you call them) kept Fred from emerging…when determining how good players will get, it is more about the foosball environment and the individuals personal will than it is about one table verses another

Your assumption/theory is that hardcourt tables produce better players BUT this is an untenable position

There are many variables that may have gone into US players being considered (by many but not all) the best players a part from the fact that the last 20 years they have played on Tornado a primarily hardcourt table…

there is the explosive growth and fad of foosball in the 70’s, serious slow tournament play was developed early in the US foosball evolution, communication of knowledge through internet, maybe even that US players having gone through TS, Dyn, Tor and have had to adjust accordingly along the way.  These and other reasons could have and most likely contributed to US player development as much or more than a hard court table.

Also, the difference between the current Tornado model and the new proposed Tornado are not that significant…they are noticeable but noticeable doesn’t mean radical and major

And last you say,
“Obviously many others just want to play at that table in the corner, with the duffers, non-tournament players, and beginners.  You see this at a lot of venues..  So to each their own.”

This makes it sound like anyone who doesn’t agree with you falls into this category…this is another “if this, then that” extreme logical fallacy.

Some people who are very competitive players who love the game and its history may disagree and prefer a table with a little more control...

[foozkillah]

BBT,

I'm discussing how these changes may affect Tornado which is still the dominant brand of table and the default table of choice across the US 50 states and you cite IFP and a Warrior tournament.  And then you take my words about dumbing-down Tornado, clearly speaking about the feet and balls ON TORNADO, and then you try to show that I'm regarding Leonhards, Jupiters, Tecball or Fireball, or Bonzini's as dumbed-down tables?  Now you're putting words in my mouth.  Especially ones I would never speak.

If I'm over-exaggerating them I'm trying to prove my point.  Sticky balls make players snag passes & grab loose balls they would otherwise never would have caught because of less experience and practice (i.e., they suck).  They survive longer and extend game times.  That would logically extend a game, wouldn't it?  But unless we scientifically start measuring the game times for hundreds of locals, regionals and main events across the country, neither you nor I can declare that this would be a noticeable effect.  And that doesn't make the case for you nor I.  I have my opinion and you yours.

I discussed Billy because you brought out his example, and yes he would totally dominate the majority of Euro players as he does here.. ON TORNADO.  And I'd say he, just as Rico has done, would adjust as well to playing other tables including the Euro-types, and that is the only theme.  He is one and Rico is another.  And the format of international play, which the ITSF is still evolving, would not allow any single player, not even Rico, to dominate.  You have to have several top players.  And about talkin about Rico, I met him at Worlds in the mid 90s, and he's a good friend of my two-time worlds partner, Tony Caruso from Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I can certainly talk as much about him as much as you.

I only expounded on the harder play of current Tornado's and I never said that the elite wouldn't come through from the junior ranks, and my "purist" preference for those who play and get better faster on the harder table.  That was my preference, because all the new players I've met that became foosers were not willing to just play friendly pickup games, they wanted to learn and get better.  You're telling me you don't have instances where there's a group that will play at a side table and wish only to play socially between themselves and will never join your local or go to a place specifically to play foosball?  There are tons of those.  And I don't waste my time with them...  That's all I'm saying there.  Do you have several seasoned tournament semipros or higher that would rather play at those social tables than get in to the tables where it's kill or be killed? 

You have your opinion and I mine.  I may go overboard in trying to put analogies to work to better explain what I mean, but you're twisting and mixing several themes and statements together and then saying they don't make sense.

I totally support IFP and Mary and the pressure she brings to bear on Valley-T's heavy handed, justifiably business-centric actions, but if she and others fail, then everyone deserves what they get.  At least they tried.

I have thoroughly enjoyed playing on Jupiters, Lehmachers, Lowen and Garlando and Roberto tables, and would love to play more than the few times I've played on Bonzini's.  They are a different game and dumbing-down a Tornado does not mean making it more Euro-like... All I'm talking about is the difficulty of the TORNADO table, and keeping it as challenging as possible.

[insidefoos]

All the speculation on the new "softer balls" is interesting...somewhat...except for the fact that VD is not switching to them. The new balls will be basically the same as the previous version except for them being a bit darker in color. Anyone who tried out the new 2009 Tornado models at the Tornado Worlds will attest to the fact that they played better than the tables that the tournament matches  were played on. In a survey of players in Vegas, the soft ball was rejected and the "similar" hard ball was an overwhelming choice. These are the balls that will be used next year.