Topic: Buying a Foosball Table - Torando Table History - Brwn Mrbl to T3000

[bbtuna]

the table releases go in this order and I took a shot at year ranges, as I get better dates I will add…here is some of what I know about the tables and their changes more or less in order…I could be fuzzy a little on order of changes since the 30th Anniversary model but after reading it, you couldn’t blame me if I got something out of order or missed something altogether ….

I will make updates to this thread as I get corrected or get further/better detail…I know Ed Geer can really help flush this out…Ed, if you read this, email or PM me with stuff and I will make changes accordingly

PART 1
Brown Marble - all at least 11+ years old - $350-$550
oldest versions have the large metal feet and are considered the most (some debate now with the newest complete change T3000) solid consistent of all the tables
Most common have the current smaller plastic foot - I am not aware of any other substantial difference between this and the large foot except the feet...so far, still my favorite table but I haven't played on the fully modified T3000

Blonde – 1995?-2000? - $400-$575
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble...

Cherry - to end of 2002 - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables made and considered by most the worst of all the Tornados (outside of the recent warped top tables)

 - I own this table, ball control is difficult but the speed is fun...play is improved with heat-treated rods but it doesn't really fix the control issues...however, if you can play on this table, you can play on any table...everything is easier after playing on this which in my mind makes it a good practice table

GREY MARBLES - $600-$800

30th Anniversary Grey Marble - 2003 release, only out during 2003
This table really starts a wild string of table changes which are hard to document and follow  but let me take a stab at it.

The Merkel heat-treated rods were introduced at this time...in my opinion the best table change I have seen on any table at any time - only rival now is the Warrior ball...the rods were very smooth, were almost unbendable, and required far less lube to keep them at their best

Issue 1:  First tables released did not all have Merkel rods, there was a mix...some tables had none, some had some, some had all...this run of tables was fairly short so I don't think there were enough made at the end to be sure when ALL Merkel rods were available
Playing surface was a little different and many liked this table because it created extra control due to the surface change...

Issue 2:  Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men

Grey Marble - 2004 to end of 2006 beginning 2007
Different playing surface than the 30th
Earliest versions had mix of men but were consistent with Merkel rods but less than a year in they had gone back to the original man and all Merkel rods...this was the best of the Grey Marbles...good playing solid table

Handles – went from shape which was well known and long running to wood with deeper dip, then to plastic with less dip, which was soundly rejected and short-lived, back to the original wood less dip

Rod - Part way through the life of this version Tornado dropped Merkel because they thought the rod was too expensive and went with an imported heat-treated rod...still better than the original rod but nothing near as good as the Merkel rods (Merkel is the last name of the person making them...made here in the US just for this application...Warrior is considering this in coming competition models)

Merkel rod side thought:   How good is this rod?  Played on a Brown Marble bar table which saw much non-fooser abuse...every bar table with non-merkel rods is going to have a bent 2 rod, just a matter of time and eventually the 3 rod as well...the owner of this table, without knowing it, replaced the 2 rods with Merkel and we played on that table for OVER 2 YEARS without the 2 rods ever bending...need I say more?

[bbtuna]

PART 2
T2000 Metal Wrap - release 2007 to Worlds 2008 - assuming surface is NOT nor has ever been warped $750-$900

Okay, this was a good table outside of not having Merkel rods but instead the imported heat-treated rods...no surface, man, or handle changes during the run BUT

Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important very negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it is the worst foosball experience I can remember...EVER!  there is no excuse and no fixing it...

The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall

The other tragedy is the change on the latest models, start of 2008 I believe, of the score markers to the new plastic CRAP CRAP CRAP...it may be hard to tell but I don't like these

Now, with that said, I have a friend (BigBrewGuy on this forum) who has a metal wrapped table with the original score markers and a solid flat playing surface and it is a very nice table and plays really well…he got lucky

It was during this time that Tornado started trying to make some positive changes...they say the warped top issue is fixed, God I hope so...jury is still out for me because I just don't have enough data to go on but I feel pretty confident it is fixed

Okay, this is tricky, because there have been a number of changes which took place toward the end of this run moving into the "full meal deal T3000" (I will explain what I mean by this shortly)
Without comment on the motivation or process (and there is a ton), the following are the changes that were decided on

•  Bearings:  Inside face of bearings made thinner…because the ball could pass behind a man even when the man was flush on the wall…most notable if you did a stick wall pass perfect, not only could you go through the defense even if the man was flat on the wall but it could also go behind your 3 bar when trying to catch it…this change has fixed that issue completely from all reports so far - good change so far

•  Man:   the foot of the man was changed, not enough in my opinion (more on this in a separate thread)…they were trying to address two things…ball control and hitting a consistent angle which would open the game up with banks and accurate angle shots like should be used on pushkick and pullkcick shots (not limited to this, just any time a consistent angle is needed) - two changes were done to try and make these things happen

Man change 1 - On the face of the "new" man the cross-hatch goes further up to about ¾ of the face of the man instead of stopping at about ½ way

Man change 2 - this plaid pattern did not go all the way to the edge of the man before the man change (like it does on the Warrior man), instead there was, and is, an “edge” something between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch…very thin but impacting how the ball is struck for angles and control in a pin...this edge was not removed with the new man change but there was an edge change

Man Edge Change - There has been an edge change…in attempt to fix the angle striking issues, that edge has been slightly beveled…so instead of being a right angle with the side of the man, this same line/strip is now on an angle…say from 90 degrees to 45 degrees…I don’t actually think this is a full 45 egrees but rather something in between 90 and 45 degrees, Ed Geer could probably say what they settled on

• Side-strips, Handles, and Balls - a decision to change these was made at this time too but the changes were not implemented until the T3000 "full meal deal".

T3000 Oct 2008 - current
What do I mean by “full meal deal T3000”?  Well, there are some late model T2000 metal wrap tables (that have the new CRAPPY plastic score markers) and that seem to have been pawned off as T3000 tables.  Some (but not all) of these tables have the Big Tornado and ITSF stickers…see video below on set up of the table Zeke won at Worlds which he calls a T3000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFqO5Ng-7s

My local bar was sold this same table (with small stickers) being told it was a T3000…this is the table with the warped surface…I do NOT believe new bar table or the Zeke table are true T3000's … Tornado may indeed have tried (or are trying) to sell these tables as T3000's but to me, name or not, they are to me NOT the “full meal deal” T3000 and really are late run T2000 tables

I think Zeke’s does not have a warped surface and BigBrewGuy has same table with little stickers and sans CRAPPY plastic markers...no other difference...T3000?  I think not!

T3000 2009 - current - $1000-$1175
“FULL MEAL DEAL T3000”This table should have all the changes listed above, men, bearings, CRAPPY score-markers, Big Tornado/ITSF stickers.
In addition to these changes the real T3000 should have a unwarped surface and the following.

Handle Change:   Now a softer “plastic” or hard rubber compound same shape as the wood handle above I refer to as “original” handle.  

Side-Strip:  changed to clear strip, slightly wider, which is essentially flat…this is to keep the ball from jumping up after hitting the strip to help facilitate banks and cut ball off the table…trade off is that the ball gets stuck on the wall from time to time

Ball Change:   as of 6/29/09 Tornado has settled on a ball and it is slightly darker red, harder, and keeps its scruffy surface longer...it is referred to has the "5 hour tumbled" ball because it has been tumbled for 5 hours to get the surface it has...pretty good ball but I think it is too hard...Tornado isn't showing any signs of changing this ball again any time soon.

NOT SHIPPING in US as of 12/26/08 but on the horizon

1 man Goalie?:  Announced as the official table to be used at ITSF International Multi-Table Championships in France…hold on to your hats, this one is going to be a wild ride while all the variables, motivations, and practical implementations of this take place.  Question about weather the change was “legal” for this tournament, if it would be a conversion kit or permanent table surface change (like Warrior uses), if the change will be permanent, or if the change will be forced in the US this year and/or sometime in the future.   For a complete  run down of the current public discussion on this (as of 12/26/08) see link below.  Read closely AmericanFoosball poster comments, long but very accurate and informed.

http://www.foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2062&sid=db2184ac5b24d5cdff4a43d03b85e02e

[gitablok]

Man bb, nothing to do or what? lol.

Good info though.

I currently own a brown marble home model with the large feet that is priceless to me because it is signed by Steve Murray and a few other greats in the game on the bottom of the table.

I will add one more disaster you don't have. I don't remember the exact year or table for that matter. My guess would be at the end of the blonde years. At Texas State one year, the table had a different surface of darker green and was as slick as baby oil on teflon. It affected every aspect of the game in a negative way. You can't even shoot a pull shot normally on these tables. If you run across a late blonde or an early cherry with a dark green surface, beware.

With that said, once again I will say the newest version of the table which still only exist at one of the locations I play at, are the best tables they have made to date. Hopefully it will translate to the assembly line.

[Rios]

I know the surface you are talking about. I actually believe it was the 2nd batch of grey marbles. The 1st batch was probably the 2nd best table they have created (the 1st being the newest table with the clear side-strip) and it had a lighter green surface. But I definatly remember the 2nd batch with the darker surface that was VERY slick.

[bbtuna]

I missed this reply earlier...yea, I remember the complaint on the darker green surface it was on some of the early 30th anniversary wasn't it?

a sepearte history would be the table surface history...I think it was edgeer who documented a good history on table surfaces, I may search for that and see if it answers this question

I keep hearing that about the T3000 down in Texas, I hope to play on one of these some day

Great table ICE, unless the new T3000 just floors me, I will probably get an old Brwn Mrbl one of these days and have Mark Murrel bring it up to spec including the new T3000 "up-grades"

and, I want to reinforce the bottom so I can add a couple hundred pounds of lead shot without worrying about the bottom falling out

[jinhopark]

Issue 2:  Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men

Tuna:

From what I am reading, up until the Grey Marble there have been 3 different chemical compositions of the nylon men?

1.  Original - not shiny nor dull
2.  Nylon 1 - dull
3.  Nylon 2 - shiny

and I guess now there is a 4th with the newest mold of men?  Not sure which chemical formula they used of the 3 above, or if they went with a totally new formula.

It sounds like the preferred men to have is the original formula...but provided your table came with all the same type of men, ie all shiny, all dull or all original...how can you tell for sure which men you have on your table?  For instance if you have all original men, how do you know if it's dull or shiny without being able to gauge it against the nylon 1 or nylon 2 men?

Does anyone have any photos up of the different types of men which show the dull Vs. the shiny men?

[bbtuna]

not a lot of shinny or dull out there, short period of time during Grey's only...if you can't tell it doesn't matter...they were either one "bad" perse, it is just that some of them had a seam-ridge that made tic tacking difficult

they couldn't straighten that out so they went back to the original composition and haven't changed since as far as I have ever heard including the latest man design

[come back trail]

Alright guys,

Need some advice. I think I'm gonna jump on this but want to run it by the "experts. I currently have a cyclone II that I purchased January 09 for $350. Table was/is in great condition and has made a nice practice table to get me back into the sport after a fifteen year layoff. The only problem with the table is it is too light. I have an opportunity to purchase a grey marble coin op that was placed in local seafood restaurant/bar for a relatively short time. The table has 200 clicks on the coin mechanism counter. Looks and feels to be in good to great condition. It is currently in a warehouse and I couldn't get complete access. He's going to move a few things so I can check her out more closely. Also, he accidently locked the key inside the table so he's getting a replacement key this week. He is asking $700. I offered $550 with the stipulation that I come back and give it a complete going over. He agreed to the $550. I'm supposed to take delivery next weekend so I do have a window of opportunity to back out of the deal if I choose. Any thoughts. On another note I am going to put the cyclone II up for sale. Any thoughts on starting asking price.

[bbtuna]

for sure by the grey for that kind of money with 200 plays, assuming no major playability damage, that is a steal and you should jump on that ASAP...check the walls and make sure there are not any dead spots...use a ball and just tap on the wall all around, especially the back walls but not only those...you will know if you it a dead spot

your on your own on the Cyc II, but the 350 you originally paid, assuming the table is still in good condition, would be a reasonable number i think

good luck on the Grey, let me know how it comes out and what you think if you buy it

bbt

[come back trail]

I'll definitely let you know how this turns out. Hopefully I'll have a report with a happy ending soon. Will try to post some pics also.

Thanks BBT

[come back trail]

for sure by the grey for that kind of money with 200 plays, assuming no major playability damage, that is a steal and you should jump on that ASAP...check the walls and make sure there are not any dead spots...use a ball and just tap on the wall all around, especially the back walls but not only those...you will know if you it a dead spot

your on your own on the Cyc II, but the 350 you originally paid, assuming the table is still in good condition, would be a reasonable number i think

good luck on the Grey, let me know how it comes out and what you think if you buy it

bbt

Got the Grey Marble Friday. It cleaned up fantastic. Great Condition. The Counter actually has 350 plays on it but is still in immaculate condition. The only noticeable issue, if you want to call it one, are the noisy bearings. I read on another post on this board about some T2000s that have bearings that make a hiss sound. Well these do that. Every rod on the table. Doesn't seem to be slower playing but does have the hissing sound. I will try the polishing fix that I read on that other post. Other than that though I am extremely happy. I think I might have a mix of rods, chinese heat treated and a couple of Merkel. I'll try to post a pic. And, to add a cherry on top, someone called me today and wants my Cyclone II for the $350. I love it when a plan comes together.

[bbtuna]

great news, good job all around...fantasic find and the Cyclone on top of that..."Now thats what I'm talkin about!"

if i remember right, they were not doing the chineese heat treated any time during the Grey Mrbl run...if your table isn't a 30th Ann then it has Merkel unless someone changed a rod out...

don't bother with the polish routine on the rods, just get the new half bearings...you will thank me (again  ) and I know Jim has plenty of them  http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-047.html

don't do the goalie rods, not worth the effort...six dollars a rod so you can just do your practice side for $18 or do it right and change them all for $36

[come back trail]

That's even better news because it is not a 30th Ann. Sweeeet!! I'm definitely going to change the bearings. For that money I can't go wrong. I'll still try to post some pics maybe even a video of me banging some balls around! Thanks for the great input.

Trevor (no, not that Trevor)

[deadbarfoos]

good info BB

i have some corrections:

BB:
Blonde – 1995?-2000? - $400-$575
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble...

Blondes started in 1998 following the 1997 Michigan manufactured first round batch of Brown Marble (last run of that type) , Valley bought Tornado in 1997
blondes were made until end of 2001?  (saw the new Cherrys in Feb 2002)

BB:
Cherry -  to end of 2002 - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables made and considered by most the worst of all the Tornados (outside of the recent warped top tables)

actually they went to the grey/30 annys after the Cherrys in 2003 . a grey-30anny is a former "cherry" with new grey marble siding, most everything else was the same


ICE:
At Texas State one year, the table had a different surface of darker green and was as slick as baby oil on teflon.

2004 Tx state had this dark green SLICK surface w/large black lettering "Tornado Table Soccer"
2003 Tx state had the 30 annys with the light green w/"product of Valley" on the logo .
i beleived the 2003's crowned as they were the first batch ,the next batch of 2003s these played awesome plus had Merkel rods

[bbtuna]

thanks Ben, I haven't looked at what was written here because i have a different thread which is more complete and is the one I have continued to make updates as I get them or the fit hits me

the time line here was provided by Dave Corrington and I think it matches your notes here

i will be updating soon about the 3 big issues with the T3000 Plat Tour Edition - warped surfaces AGAIN, rods bending quite a bit and after manufacturing heat treatment for 2 rod, and the man too close to the surface launching balls...until ALL 3 of these issues are dealt with, I can not recommend a new table even for someone who has the money...

i will reserve final judgement until I can get a hold of one but from everything I have read over the last couple years and much recently, I think Fireball will be the best table ever built and if its what I think it is, it will become my number one recommendation...I have to see how it plays compared to Tor and War and what kind of adjustments will need to be made in a person's game if they want to still play those other tournaments - i anticipate the changes to be no more than Tor to War or War to Tor but we will see

I am very excited about the Fireball, very smart design but someone who has built thousands and thousands of tables  and the Fireball is nearly 4 years old and he has continued to make improvements that entire time...i am stoked!

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=2704.0