Topic: Back pins

[Old Meister]

And should the direction of a more controllable ball continue, then you might begin to see BP's come into the spotlight more. The thing about Freddy using frontpins and nobody trying to copy him is that his game was developed on a table that supported front pin play. Just like Bb and Fk and myself, we all came from TS backgrounds and most likely had an effective BP game back in the day. You don't see too many young players try to learn the BP as Tornado play doesn't support it well. That is why it is good to have more than one type of table around to play on, it just broadens your horizons as far as style. I still think those Texans got tired of getting their arses kicked by the northerners so they came up with a table that wouldn't support the northerners style. OOOh, I probably started something with that

[Will17]

On the ITSF garlando back pins are super easy, I shot them from the back at the world cup a lot on that table and i saw some players shooting them from the 3. that table is really easy to score on anyway though because it is easy to get the ball moving fast, the men are small, and the nets are huge. Also it is now very snake friendly with the new rods.

[Old Meister]

Oh yeah Will, from the back it's totally freestyle when you go with back pins, on a table that will let You! Mixing it up is where it's at and from in back you have so much room to move. I was playing these kids(20 somethings)in Portland, OR, and from back I did some little BP dance thing and turned a shot and the goalie's reaction was just precious. I just love this game,,,  . But not to butter my bread too much, I have to admit it is hard on Tornados to be solid on execution when using backpins. When it works it's wonderful but when it fails it's horrid. We play this game for pleasure. WE should do it as we deem it should be so as to project our own definition of the game. Be true to your own vision, don't get too down when you lose, come back with determination and inspiration. Anyone who puts a great part of themselves into this game has everyright to express themselves in any way they see fit. And we are all better for it. Bb asked me to try a static start from a back pin and to do a one move shot.  By analyzing the move, the problem of the move and trying to arrive at a workable solution, well how good is that? Life is about that, a simple problem to be figured out. I once watched a young man trying to pluck a coin from an older man's palm. He would tense and strike and time and time again he would fail yet when the older man went to pluck the coin from the younger mans palm it seemed he hardly move fast at all but got it everytime. The difference was that the young man tensed, muscles oppposed the muscles need to carry out the task yet when he did move it seemed so very fast, but to no avail. Yet when the older man moved there was no tension, just a straight forword relaxed move and he seemed to simply pick up the coin. I think this is something Bb was hinting at about lateral movement. It doesn't have to BOOM to be fast. Oh here I go, rambling on about foos, I can't help it. And if you're reading thisd I imagine you can't either.

[bbtuna]

OM, your talkin love of the game and for those of us who work at it with no reward except the game, the art, the friends...it gets in your blood

on the BP on Tornado, if we all played regularly, none of you would think there was any short coming on a Tornado with the BP, 3 bar or 2 bar

however, the Warrior does have just enough added control it might entice a few people to work through the beginner issues and take it up seriously - not super likely but it might happen...it will definitely be seen from the 2 bar more often but not as a primary series I am guessing and you will see people doing it in pick up stuff on the 3 bar along with tic tac stuff

I am not saying the BP on Tornado is easy, it isn't, but it can be done but Warrior adds just enough additional control to make it crazy fun for me cause if you learn to shot it on Tor, every table you are going to play apart from Tor is going to be easier

when i started back after 25 year layoff and started on Tornado from TS, I thought I would break my wrist before I got my stroke back but now that seems like another lifetime ago and I can do things with a BP I never dreamed of the first time around

the backpin is a great shot, lots of fun – it is without peer and is the ultimate shot
endlessly creative, physically demanding, a blend of brute force and surgical precision
it is
art, power, subtlety, and strategy rolled into one and the game of foosball has not yet seen what it (the game) can become but one day, hopefully in my lifetime, a force of nature will come shooting the backpin and this will change foosball

there is more to foosball than what has been discovered, there are other things, but the BP is for sure one of the untapped wonders
the moving pass series on the wall
the pull
the brush
the stick
far wall
the rollover
these are some of the defining things that have been discovered and changed the face of foosball as it makes it way through its first tournament generation
one day the backpin will be added to that list

[Rios]

Well, I guess if you mean by "best shot" the shot with the most options, then you could be correct.
I guess my definition of "best shot" is the shot that has the higher scoring %. But then again, in order to determine the shot with the best scoring % you would have to take into account who is shooting. And like you said since there is nobody (big names ex. Spree, Pappas, Atha, Moore) that shoot the backpin, how are we to tell that someone shooting a backpin would have a higher scoring % than someone shooting a pull or snake?
I mean, any shot (pull, push, backpin, front pint, push kick, pull kick, snake) can get to any of the holes. Does it really matter "how" the ball gets there?

[bbtuna]

Rios,

yes, that is what close to what I am saying...historically in the US there is no doubt the pull and the rollover are the winningest shots and so the "best" shots using the % criteria and unless I met someone young and very very aggressive and committed I would not recommend the BP because it is a ton of work to get right

however, i will disagree with the assement that all shots can do all the same shots...the inline shots for example, the pull, push, and both kicks, can not do reverses (reasonably) and can not do brushes...the position of the ball on a BP, which is behind the rod, and the fact that your man is in contact with the ball, allows you pin point precision and the capability to easily cut back or brush back in either direction...the longs are a given in all the shots but the inside game and ball control are not equal not even close...trying to do a cut back on a push or a pushkick at any hole along the goal mouth is problematic

another example, with a rollover, going short and cutting back with any kind of accuracy and consistency - as a matter of fact, I have watched many many hours of all the best rollover shooters and none of them employ this regularly because it just isn't reliable

same is true with the euro piin with Fred as an aception, he does a short pullside chip but it lacks the finesse and control of the BP and I have never seen him do it on the push side

on both of these shots, brushes are not possible due to the position of the ball

I think it is easy to prove mechanically that there is no doubt that the BP has superior capabilities but proving that these additional options, even in the hands of the best players, would make the BP the highest scoring % shot, all things being equal, is really just an unproven theory

all the same, I would bet on it but it is a safe bet since there is no way to prove it

[Old Meister]

Youtube- Gummeson vs Gabriel-2008 Kentucky state- Gummeson wins with a back pin!

[bbtuna]

a slow mis-hit angle back but a BP all the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmVNVMsLJDo

[Old Meister]

True but did you notice the first shot shown? A back pin from the back that wasn't a mis-hit. Yep, give an old-schooler some grip on the ball and watchout for backpins At the very end he admitted that he was trying to do shots that he hadn't used in 15 to 20 years.

[foozkillah]

As I've always said, the greatest baseball pitchers and foosball shooters may have a monstrous money shot, but they also invariably have 2 or more secondary shots almost as scary.  And the legendary ones actually have 2 or 3 money shots.  The basketball forward that can drive and dunk imposingly, but can throw in 10-15footers from the lane all night, as well as hit the 3s on call, is definitely another example.

The BP, although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables, is still a dynamite option to bust out on a defender with its natural quickset from a pickup, its reverse or "unnatural" angles, to shooting completely different holes.

Because just like with gunfighters of the old west.. there will always be that individual or two that will just naturally outdraw ya, or shut out your main shot/s.  The more weapons the better, and the complete alienness of the timing and shot selection of a BP makes it a great candidate.

[bbtuna]

although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables

NO!  no more than a roller or europin and on the primary tables in the US, Tornado and now Warrior, these are non factors...

[bbtuna]

sportin the BP from goal like a vet...it is so natural to me I didn't even notice until you said that

people say Gummy has a good BP...I would like to see him shoot it on the 3 for a while and judge for myself what I think...maybe someday - Johnny Horton is supposed to have a good one too and given his crazy ball control skills I can see that but again would like to experience it personally

[foozkillah]

although probably too hard to keep consistent, to warm up quickly enough within that first game because of the demands on touch, and reliability and consistency in the ball, the man, and the table surface across multiple tables

NO!  no more than a roller or europin and on the primary tables in the US, Tornado and now Warrior, these are non factors...

BBT,

I have to say that rollover shooters can set, from SS or a shake, standard shots to the same holes (typically the "posts") and practice these till the cows come home.  True BP'ers have more a "jazz" like offense, another reason it is so nice to see and do.  They can easily take up the whole length of the 3bar with thousands more options.  That's why I say they have to take more concentration, and more touch.  I've trained absolute klutzes to do a decent left-right-middle rollover.  No problems... Won't work with a classic BP O.

[bbtuna]

killa,

true about training people...people go blank trying to learn the BP but I have seen a bunch of people start on the roller now and they are just as awkward in the beginning

I hear you on using more of the goal and the "jazz" (which I like as a description) but we will just leave it there...hopefully we can play some day

have a great weekend all, FOOOSSSBALLL FRIDAY is here on Super Bowl weekend...go rock and play hard and of course

SHOOT THE BACK PIN

[foozkillah]

Exactly like jazz.  Improvisation is both the beauty and the deadliness of the BP.  But I must also include the closed hand wrist frontpin or heelshot.  And many of those Euro or world styles go back and forth between the heelpin and the BP.

I've taught hundreds of noobs over the years, but never really "taught" the backpin.  To get a BP, or heelpin, series, I remember that the 1 in 10 or so who went for the pin series did it the same way jazz musicians and the best most elusive offensive basketball forwards have to do.  They watched, then they went on the same very personal "adventure" of learning the feel of the ball, and had the nads to keep using it in play.. perfecting it in play.  So those who saw it, tried it, and "got" it, were the minority.

Not even your animal spirit guide can teach you a workable BP or closedhand heelshot series.  You have to live it.  And a major disadvantage for attracting more proponents, and challenge, is that your best shots are the memorable ones against great and tough D.  Same as you rarely ever saw MJ or Kobe or LeBron put up more than a thunderous dunk or simple jumpshot against a so-so defender or more.  It's when the challenge is raised that the shot really comes into its own.

Motion offense with the ball attached has to be the highest level of offensive play, and really known only to those who've taken the BP or HS backroads.  And even the great ones who have them will still have to use the mundane power and speed shots, to survive, to conserve concentration, and to be as fresh as possible when they meet that opponent who threatens to take them out of the money, or the championship.  And they will pull it out in finals...  or desperation moments.