Topic: snake, monkey, rollover,flailing spin whatever you want to call it.

[the spray]

OK guys I realize I may have pushed some buttons regarding my OPINION on the snake. I did just start up again after 15 years and already knew the snake was legal and part of the game today. Didnt mean to get you all riled up!? But realize this giving an opinon is not whining if it is then all of you are whining!? Thought it was fun for awhile, for all of us, but obviously not for everyone so I'M DONE!!! The LAST thing I will say on this site is this, Todd Loffredo, in my opinion, is still the best in the World. Last World Champion Doubles Winner while playing the front shooting a PULL and not losing a single game!!! No need for ANYBODY to reply I'M GONE. You win. Good luck guys.

                                               The Spray

                                       


                                                         

                                                   

As I said earlier Spray, quit your whining and adjust or STFU. I just got back from a decent sized tournament with some of the better pros from my state (FL). Can they shoot good pullshots? Yes. Do they use them? Not really. The snake is just an all around better shot for a long weekend of events. Sorry that your nostalgic glory days are no longer a reality but get the hell over it. You whine on a similar tone as a few of the scrubs I spent the weekend with. And FWIW people like you did bitch about the pullshot when it first came into use. As Brian said, there was a point in time when the pull was only worth 1/2 point.

/dumbest replier the spray has ever heard  

[bbtuna]

Spray,

it was more than an opinion, it was a drive by...if you were trying to be funny well, not so much

for those who have spent a lot of time on the board, this subject comes up with regularity with someone saying the same kind of things you did

there is no reason anyone hear would know you were kidding

if you were trying to "have fun with" those who responded then you did but that is no way to make friends unless you never intended to and didn't care and you were just being a troll (which I don't believe was your intention)

don't give up with the board, just apologize and don't try and ryle people up for your own amuzment, it is at the very least rude

this is normally a friendly board but you were itching for a fight apparently and you got one

have fun coming back, hope to see you back here again in a more civil way

bbt

[sirflair]

The Spray is an old foos buddy of mine from the late 70's who has been out of the game for a decade or 2 and has hit the last 2 tour events and will attend at least another 3 this year. He told me he thought he got his tit in a ringer with this thread so I thought i would take a look.

After glancing thru here I believe the last post by bbtuna is briliaint for 2 reasons. I think he sized everything up correctly and he realizes that if today's tour players had a 1000 new Spays on tour, the players in the game right now would most likely beating up on most of them for at least 6 months maybe a year for huge prize money. (200 entry times 1000 is 200k entry's in that tourny being carved up) After that it is likely in my opinion guy's like this just like water will find thier natural level. In his case he was competiitive against touring pro's.

Let me tell you that is no easy feat when ( I am not kidding) his long pull sprays from the dot.

All I can tell you is this.... I can see why, like bbtuna said without personally knowing someone that made a couple of these posts you could eaisily take him for a jerk... but for what it's worth I know anyone, once they get to even meet this guy will realize he is not.

[thebodygroove]

Brendan,

that's always the problem with the anonymity in the internet. Your real personality remains concealed, and after one misdirected joke, everyone thinks you're a super jerk - I know what I'm talking about. Ask Phil Kennedy.

I personally didn't feel irritated by anything Spray wrote, nor did I think he was a bad person. Didn't always like the way he was expressing his opinion, but I guess that was mutual.

-

[papafoos]

OK, Everybody back inside!

Nothing to see here.  Just a little misunderstanding.  Don't make me call the forum police.

[Old Meister]

Listen to Papa. From here on out all disputes should be settled in a civilized manner, on the table!

[bbtuna]

Brendon,

good to see you over here again...it would be a great shot in the arm if thousands of old foosers suddenly started playing again even if many of them would be out of sorts about a shot that is now almost 30 years legal.

some people just can't let go of it because it is a "spin" if you know what I mean    I bet there are some very influential people who would, even today, ban the rollover if they felt they could and still make their business work 

however, I am a product of the 70's and have no problem with the rollover at all but I am also okay with 3 man goalie and hollow rods too

I am not saying I think any of these are better than the other, I think they are all arbitrary decisions about a game that is still in its infancy compared to many other games/sports

I mean, why is spinning a “bad” thing anyway…it could be argued it is random and could damage a table but that is wild beginner fling spinning not controlled spinning or accidental spinning…again, I am not arguing for it, I am just saying there is no absolute reason or air tight logic for it…there is only a random, emotional, and/or fiscal decision driving the approval of many things people feel are “established” or “tradition”

appeals to soccer, tradition, and the like are just emotional attempts to justify a position

tournament foosball essentially started in the mid 70’s and, as an example, the rollover was not an approved shot until 1990ish so basically the game went the first 15-18 years without it and now has gone 17-19 years with it…all this within the first 33-35 years of the evolution of tournament foosball…go back and look at the history of golf, baseball, and basketball and the significant changes that took place over the years of their growth up to today

some things are driven by reason and trouble, like certain rules, others practical logic, still others random emotion…I am of the opinion, the Rollover, 3 man goalie, center drop, accidental spinning which has no advantage to the spinner, time of possession per rod, number of hits off the wall for the 5 bar and no limit on the 2 to 5, number and length of time outs, number of games per match, double elimination, illegal aerial shots, and more are all decisions which are neither absolutely right or absolutely wrong

what do you think?

[sirflair]

  BBTUNA, I have said this a thousand times and everytime I do nobody wants to believe me, they address this as if I said something different, but here it goes again. My biggest problem with the LWSS is that because it is so much easier to establish a shot on goal with the 3 man rod the vast majority of all new players that come into the game will shoot this shot. I do not think that if foosball had a chance to become a televised sport the look of a persons wrist on the rod is photogenic. I however think it does have a place in the amature, rookie or novice divisions, just not at the pro level. That being said not only is this sport a long way from being televised as a pro sport but my opinion is no more important than yours, or anyone else. I am a manufacturer of tables not someone running a tour as I think some people might conscrue. I also believe anyone running a tour right now would need thier head examined if they tried to make the shot illeagle.

P.S. What do you mean JAR..... Ha Ha

[sirflair]

Wow looking at Phil's post maybe foos is not that far from T.V.

[bbtuna]

Sirfair,

i have read that before now that you write it...it is after all only opinion which was sort of my point

i won't go into my feelings on the easier to shoot on goal thing right now but I will say as far as being cool for TV, I have been back playing for 4 years and have played out in public/bars quite a few times over this time and nothing gets spectators who don't anything about the game more excited than see a rollover...ohhs, and ahhs all the time

i don't shoot one so I am not saying mine, I have to do twice as much with the rest of my game to get the attention of a decent hard/fast rollover...I think Tony Spree and Billy's wrist on the rod looked tough and cool but again, that is just me

I could see TV changing rod time limits which might inadvertantly change how often you see it or how it is shot

[foozkillah]

I could see TV changing rod time limits which might inadvertantly change how often you see it or how it is shot 

Hey! Now that's something!  Being born a natural leftie, I've always wondered why releasing the ball from the 5bar was 10secs, while 15 on the two other areas.  It always seemed ridiculous, since handling the closer tighter figures on the 5bar was a lot harder than getting a goal area or 3bar area ball controlled and ready for a pass or shot.  At least above amateur level.  I would not have a problem with changing the possession limits to 10 seconds for all three areas, and I don't think too many would complain if that were passed.  Maybe at first, but I just seriously do not see what it proves to have less time on the 5bar than the two other possession areas. 

I think it would be exciting to have 10sec time limits on the other two areas, for the pro and open events.  The same as the shorter 24sec clock in the NBA is faster than the 30-45 sec college basketball limits.  I'm sure that there were a few who mourned the loss of twin hobbies: growing a chiapet plant while watching Hank Iba style forever-passing basketball of the 40s 50s, as did those few who did the same in those circles with the wait-wait-wait then shoot the shot at 14.999995 ...  but they peter out soon enough(they get bored with the chiapet), which is lucky for both sports/games and their futures.

Not that I mind the tense, blood-curdling waits from forwards that can and do shoot it at 1/10th of a second or at 14.9999,, but for that VERSUS and other media's sake, I believe the professional end will have to speed that up.  Maybe they can have 15 or even 20 when setting up for gamepoint, but otherwise 10secs should be sufficient.

[foozkillah]

And another thing about the rollover.  Perhaps another reason to be thankful, grudgingly or not, to the popularity of the rollover.  Having trained so many noobs, I noticed over the decades that once having seen the snake/rollover, even absolute rank beginners want to be able to shoot it. If not at stronger players at the local DYP, then definitely as a secret weapon against their fellow scrubs.  They just have that need.  EVEN those who fell in love with the pull early on.  By its very nature, the rollover requires early adoption of absolute pinned ball control, the need for learning to go to a pin, move the pin, and stay on it.  The same reasons that those in the earlier days knew the control advantages of backpin series vs under-the-rod shots.

Almost any player above beginner knows the rollover, thanks to its dominance, and may even prefer and admire the pull, but can do the rollover, meaning they can pretty much set the ball and center it within a splitsecond after controlling on the 3bar.  And especially for the motion or non StandStill rollover shooters, they just pin, get into rhythm and shoot.  Even a 7 second limit might not faze the majority of players above beginner.

That would be even nicer to TV or streaming Internet shows.

[thebodygroove]

BBTUNA, I have said this a thousand times and everytime I do nobody wants to believe me, they address this as if I said something different, but here it goes again. My biggest problem with the LWSS is that because it is so much easier to establish a shot on goal with the 3 man rod the vast majority of all new players that come into the game will shoot this shot.

Why is that a problem? Take me for an example: Having a job, a family and a band, I don't have the time to learn a decent Pull Shot or Euro Pin. But I still want to play the game. Thanks to the rollover, I can have a working 3-row and still put enough time into passing. Even if I had the time, I'd probably shoot a rollover and put much MORE time into passing. Isn't passing the the essential part of the game? Why then does everyone seem to get so emotional about 3-row shots? The 3-row is just there to hammer the friggin' ball into the goal. Getting it there is what makes the game interesting, isn't it?

I do not think that if foosball had a chance to become a televised sport the look of a persons wrist on the rod is photogenic.

I think this is mainly acquired taste. To me, there is nothing more boring than watching a Pull Shooter (except Horton and Loffredo). I know it's a difficult shot that takes a lot of skill, but frankly I don't care. On the other hand, whenever I watch Tony's 3-row, I'm close to a heart attack. You're probably yawning or rolling your eyes when you see that. But are you right and am I wrong, or vice versa? I don't think so. De gustibus non est disputandum.

I however think it does have a place in the amature, rookie or novice divisions, just not at the pro level. That being said not only is this sport a long way from being televised as a pro sport

I'm dying to see what Eurosport 2 will make out of the footage they shot at Nantes. I really hope Foosball will get relevantly pushed by that.

Regards

Pat

-

[Will17]

Rollovers, especially walking rollovers, look really cool. If I show a non foosball player a pull shot they just say "wow thats fast" if I show them a rollover they are totally impressed and think its the coolest thing, everyone has to try it. I know that having different shooting styles against eachother is a good idea, but really just filming open doubles would have been cool, they could have just shown the good parts of the best matches.

[bbtuna]

Killa,

I agree about 10 second thing...only a few players would even know it was gone...90% of the game for 90% of the players (or higher) is already played within the 10 seconds (at top levels)

this means a time change by itself would not make the game a ton faster or more interesting from a spectators perspective

now I worked with Johnny Lott quite a bit when he was trying to roll out legend and I wrote a rule book for that which was a mix of his ideas, my ideas, USTSA, and ITSF rules

he was going to make all rod times the same, 12 seconds, and have two styles of play...one was what we do now and the other was a "fast" style where how long the ball could be stopped was limited to a couple seconds

we went round and round about this and what constituted a stopped ball and how that impacts a pinned ball and blah, blah, blah I won't go into all the detail but I will say, I have tried this style play with friends with the rules as I wrote them and it is a lot of fun once you get used to it

it makes the 3 bar look much more active and interesting weather you do an inline shot or a pinned ball shot...it would be a total no brainer no impact for Todd, Tommy A, Tony S, and Horton but the rest of foosball would totally be transformed

I think this style and 10 second time limits would radically transform the game for good and would make it much more fun to watch

Johnny and I did not see eye to eye on some of the detail and Johnny feels very much like SirFlair on the rollover but conceptually, I think it is a great idea as long as you don't outlaw the rollover while doing it like Johnny intended

people would of course complain at first but after working with it for a while, I think 90% plus of current players would really embrace it because it is fun for the players too