Topic: Ball off the table

[Daniel]

Here is the rule

7. Ball Off the Table
If the ball leaves the playing area and strikes the scoring markers, light fixture, or any object that is not part of the table, the ball shall be declared off the table. If the ball hits the top of the side rails or cabinet ends and then immediately returns to the playing surface it will be considered in play.
7.1 The play area shall be defined as the area above the playing surface to the height of the sideboards of the cabinet. The top of the side rails and cabinet ends are only in play if the ball immediately returns to the playing surface.
7.2 A ball entering the serving hole (if present) and then returning to the playfield is still considered "in play."
7.3 If the power of a player’s shot or pass causes the ball to go off the table it will be put back into play at the opponent’s two-man rod.
7.4 A player may not perform any shot that causes the ball to lob or volley over the opponent’s rods (Example: Aerial Shot). It is not considered a penalty if a shot, which leaves the current rod of possession, deflects off another rod and then goes airborne.
7.5 Penalty for violating rule 7.4 is loss of possession to opponent’s five-man rod for serve.

The question is what happens when the ball leaves the table that is not a shot or pass like trying to stop a loose ball?

[PatRyan]

It would really depend on the circumstances leading up to the "loose ball".  Without having seen a particular situation, it is very diffucult to say for sure. 

For example, yellow goalie attempts a clear, which is blocked by the black five man rod and both black and yellow 5-man rods hit the ball repreatedly trying to gain possesion.  In that case, the ball would go to the black goalie, as the Yellow team executed(attempted to execute) a clear which resulted (albeit after much whacking by BOTH 5-rods) in the ball leaving the table.

Does that help you decide who would get the ball in the situation you are inquiring about?

PR

[Daniel]

What happen last time this came up was the Yellow goalie shot the ball and miss went off the back wall and the black 2 rod tried to trap the ball on the wall but this cause the ball to fly off the table.  So some players said the Yellow side should get the ball because the black side added the force to sent to ball off the table and some others said the black side should get the ball because they only tried to stop the ball and did not shot or try to pass.

[PatRyan]

In that case, the ball would go to the black goalie.  The goalie on the black team was trying to trap a shot/pass/clear made by the yellow team, and the ball went off of the table, black goalie's ball.

PR

[Daniel]

Thanks Pat

[ZekeNDestroy]

Pat,

I dont think that's right. Let's not forget 7.3 (If the power of a player’s shot or pass  causes). I didnt see the situation that Dan is talking about but I've seen
plenty of examples of this situation where people have problems interpreting the rule. If in the situation that Dan is talking about, the ball hits off the back wall
and the opposing goalie in the attempt to trap the ball was the one that added the force that caused the ball to off the table, then it should go back to yellow.

If you have the 2008 Tornado World's DVDs, there's a match between Loffredo/Collignon vs Yore/Beine. Collignon is at goal, and he front pins the ball, and tries to bank
but mis-hits the ball. The ball rolls slowly towards Yore's 5 bar, and which point Yore moves his 5 bar really fast back and forth so as to block the ball from going through,
and causes the ball to go off the table. The ball goes back to Collignon even though he started the shot. The point was that collignon's shot did not have the power to cause
the ball to go off the table. It was Yore's movement.

Other situations, where forward shoots, and goalie makes a block, but after the block the ball rolls slowly back to the forward, at which point the goalie as a reaction to trap the
ball hits the ball with the 2 bar towards the side wall and cause the ball to go off the table. Ball goes back to opposite goalie.

-zeke

[pinalyzer]

Zeke,
I have seen the exact example that comes up often where the forward or goalie (Yellow team) shoots the ball hard and the goalie in trying to block and then control the ball it goes off the table.  The block has not been completed as control nor possesion has been established so in your case the Yellow team gains an unfair advantage as they can keep shoot hard shots and the Black team can either let the ball go in or make a once in a lifetime block that goes off the table directly after it hits their man. 

 In the real world the goalie can't just place the man in front of the ball and it go off the table.  The only thing that can happen is the ball will bounce off the Black team's man and go right back to the yellow team.  Your scenerio does not leave anything for the black team to do to block the ball leaving all the advantage to the yellow team.


In your last scenerio you have the ball roll slowly back to the forward, that is not a defintate spead...for instance if it is real slow then you would be right as the goalie is purposely knocking it off (for what reason I don't know). But in real life it is going fairly quickly and to make the only move that can be made is to try to finish the block which requires moving the rods.  While it is a grey area that can be defined by who should get the ball, you are saying that each and every time it should go to the forward's goalie. 

I say that often it is a result of making the block and the choice of the goalie is let it roll (albeit not as slow as you make it out to be) to the opposing forward or try to capture it and gain posession. So... your way everytime the forward or their goalie would get the ball, just shoot it hard, which is where we were before the rule change.  A line has to be drawn and the last person with established posession before it went off the table loses posession and it goes to the other goalie to serve.

We have both seen examples in major tournament play where it was called differently so why is it that you only want it called one way on every example.  I think that there is more to this than that...and btw the way you describe the game with rico, I can't see how they could have given Rico the ball, that was clearly called wrong, who was the ref?

I see they said it was a pass that Yore was trying so that would make a little sense.
But when Blocking and the ball goes off the table even if I am trying to keep it in my area,  It is simply not a shot or pass so 7.3 would say that the last shot or pass was from the forward and thus the ball would go to me (the goalie defending).
I think I finally got it the key words are shot or pass and a block is neither.
What do you think?
Pinalyzer

[PatRyan]

But without having the opportunity to actually see the speed of the ball, I would stand by what I said.  Apparently there was enough force on the ball shot by the yellow goalie that Daniel refered to it as a "shot".  Thus there was PROBABLY sufficient force for the ball to have left the table. Regardless of the fact that the black goalie was the last one to cause the ball to change directions.

I was trying to answer his specific question, not a general ruling. 

PR

[EDGEER]

Pat:

This is the problem with this rule. As explained to me by Tom Yore.  A pinched ball off the table is put back into play by the opposing goalie.   The act of "trying to gain" control is the determining factor.  Also, if a shot is blocked into the air and reenters the playing field and is subsequently forced off the table by the goalie that made the original block in an attemp to gain control the ball is put back into play by the opposing goalie.   

I hate the way they have interperted this rule.  I like the possession arrow idea.

[ZekeNDestroy]

We have both seen examples in major tournament play where it was called differently so why is it that you only want it called one way on every example.  I think that there is more to this than that...and btw the way you describe the game with rico, I can't see how they could have given Rico the ball, that was clearly called wrong, who was the ref?

John,

There was no ref, but given that Tom Yore agreed to the call and he is the president of the ITSF rules commission, then i'd say that's how rule is interpreted.
Also in my examples the speed doesnt really matter. If the goalie makes a block on a hard shot, and the ball bounces in the goalie area, at that point if the goalie made no effort to gain possession, then the ball could not fly off the table from the original hard shot by the forward. But if the goalie makes an effort to gain possession (by trapping, or clearing, etc) and the ball goes off the table, then it was that goalie that is causing the ball off the table. Regardless of whether you think it's an unfair advantage. Also this particular case doesnt happen very ofter to say that it's unfair for a goalie that hustles to trap balls after a block. Most of the time the ball will be trapped without it going off the table, the other times the ball will go off the table as a result of the forward's shot (which goes back to the goalie making the block).

-zeke

[TomYore]

Hi All:

We are currently re-wording the Ball off the Table rule and may make a subtle change as well.  But until then...

If a shot or pass (properly executed or not) does not have enough momentum to go off the table but is subsequently knocked off by the defensive players reaction (or over-reaction) then it is the defensive player who caused the ball to go off in that situation.

If the ball leaves the table as a result of the defensive players effort to block, contain, or prevent the ball from going into his goal (after a hard shot from the opponent) then it's the offensive player who caused the ball to go off the table.  In this case the momentum was generated by the offensive player.

If it is unclear who caused the ball to go off the table, it should be awarded to the opposing two-man of team who had the last offensive possession.

Regards,

Tom Yore

[EDGEER]

Hey Tom thanks for the reply. However what about a pinched ball of the table.  Can you address that directly with a definative responce?  I recommend that the word "pinched" be included in the pronouncement.  Like " A pinched ball off the Table goes to the __________ __________."  Now all you have to do is fill in the blank for us.   

[herringr1]

it goes to the opposition goalie from the controlled positions shot

[foosbooze]

Whoever gets control of the ball first gets to serve.

It seems pretty simple to me. I'm not sure why this thread has gone on this long.