Topic: Playing styles

[Old Meister]

During the 70's each area had it's own particular style, Midwest, NW, Texas,, Do you still see that today or has the game become so standardized due to the way the Tornado tables play and thus, then, is the effective style needed to win. It seemed in the 70's that area styles had more to do with the type of table people cut their teeth on before TS came into the scene. Deutcsher Meister, Garlando, and other 'not so sure what they were' tables, came on the scene first and they each played way different than the others. The term,"old schooler" seems to mean that the old fart has lot's of trick shots that the younger players find hard to do. Those shots may have been born on another table type which shows that something is lost when you only play on one type of table. Any thoughts?

[foozkillah]

Over here, the term "old schooler" includes Todd Loffredo, Tom Yore, Dave Gummeson, and Terry Moore.  "New School" would be Spredeman and Kane Gabriel..  No difference in abilities to win today, just more experience on the younger side.  Billy would be more in-between, since he started playing back back back in the day.  When he was three, I believe..

In play here, we call "old school" those shots like a well-executed square hard push, a pushkick, or a good backpin series.  Also that near-wall bank from the 3bar, and hard Z-banks.  Of course, only those over 40 call them old-school.  The younger ones just see them as fancier shots, as creative, and as good emergency tactics to go to when getting bricked.

[Old Meister]

Wouldn't it be fun to have a TS table tournament with a minimum 2 second hold before the shot. Now we are talking old school foos. On the fly descision making. Todays players are so stuck in the Tornado rut that they forgot half of how the game could be played. I just love the dumb look on newer players when a "on the fly" shot is made on them. I guess I'm still bitter on what has happened to the game with too long of a one table influence. The 70's had flare that, in my opinion, is lost today. Pull or rollover, ho hum,,,

[foozkillah]

OldM

Oh I don't know.. I've seen my share of tense tense matches, but yes, no longer on the 3bar, or much even from the formerly more dominant and more dangerous 2bar.  Another difference is that a lot of that creativity and uniqueness and "flair" came from isolation among all the styles, even within city propers, back in the 70's.  Nowadays the Internet standardizes really hard on the youth.  Many more noobs can see and examine what the top players are doing, and wish to do the same.

Today's creativity and fantastic play is all at the 5bar, 5bar defense, and in singles the passing 2-to-5 and 2-to-3.  Like a baseball purist that can enjoy a 1-0 or 2-1 game, I can appreciate the intricate passing and passing D as much as the scoring.   You will grant that at least the pull shot has come back, after the mid 90s to mid 2K's dominance of the snake and the Euro.  At least at the top, as snake and Euro D's began to be systematized.

But the advent of the Warrior should help this along, and all these developments with new playing figure shapes and textures should bring some change... Maybe it was time to have all these troubles and uncertainties in foosball's future.  Like back in the 70's again, at least the late late 70's for me.

[Old Meister]

Mind you I'm not ditzing the skills of today as they are truly impressive. I, like you, hope to see more imagination rather than machination from the introduction of Warrior.
When you hear all the complaints about the changing of the ball and the way it plays and should it be too hard and slippery the outcry begins. Well isn't that what Tornado seems to be about? Keep the play on the very edge of a controllable vs noncontrollable ball which then separates the styles in terms of effectiveness? I think the introduction of the Warrior table and hopefully other tables down the road, are going to help this game alot.  A tournament on some of those Euro tables would be a blast.

[foozkillah]

Yeah, OM,

Actually, we should have a REAL Vegas showdown, hopefully staged on VERSUS or other similar channels, where the major manufacturers show up, put up, or shut the f up.

A professional, paid, Xtreme Games style showdown.  Put up the P4P, the Bonzini, Tornado, the Warrior table, and others, hopefully non-ITSF, like those who play on the old Garlando and Roberto, etc..  There would be a set of singles and doubles Table Champions for each Table, and an overall pair ... Just like in pool, where we have the US and the rest of the World competing in 9ball, 8ball, 3cushion Billiards, Straight Pool, and Snooker.  There are individual and team champs for each table, and overall ones, too.

Inviting Rico and other World Titlists on other tables to show their superiority on their tables while we show ours, that would be excellent for color commentators..  Outline how each player got to their level of play and how they started.  Something that kids and noobs all over can identify with.  Something like pool and bowling that the parents and uncles, aunts, gramps can PLAY with their kids and nieces, nephews, grandkids, etc..  Not something you sit back and watch, like field soccer or football or basketball.  Wanna get to know your son or daughter or grandkids?  Foos with them at meets with others!

One thing about foos...  We all pretty much start with little wherewithal and abilities.  I've broken bread, gone on road trips, stayed out all night, starved with, got drunk and in trouble with, and basically bonded with foosmates from all over the world.  There is no one I trust more.  From lawyers to guys who can build stuff to motorheads to sailing and kiteboarding and basejumping enthusiasts.  To docs, nurses, EMTs, scientists and engineers and carpenters and DWI and tragedy victims...  When you've hitched rides, stayed over, split a sandwich, a soda or beer, smokes, and tootsie rolls (among .. ahem ... other things) with these folks, especially when you're in your teens, all of you against the world... Very few friendships are that strong, and the only lawyers and investment bankers and authority figs I really trust are my best foos friends.  This is what the media should be emphasizing with all these players' beginnings.

[Old Meister]

Just bring back the old Deutscher Meister table and call it good. Now I'm really dating myself. But I could hit a double reversal push on that table that would leave alot of these younger guys in their tracks wondering what just happened. Not possible on Tornado,,,

[Will17]

in amsterdam all they have is old deutscher miesters, some of the locals there are awesome at the double reverse push, it was eye opening.
Either way a pull was still super easy to score with and because of the locals lack of 5 bars it was easy to beat everyone that i played there. those balls are sooo slippery though.

[Old Meister]

Wow, slippery balls on DM'? That certainly wasn't the case back in the 70's. You could pin those balls all day long and not lose a pin. The biggest concern was to not stub the ball on a shot. But you could go into a shot with complete confidence that the ball would be where you expected it to be.  Maybe it was slightly slower but the shot you intended to shoot happened. And you could shoot fast shots, maybe not quite as fast as Tornados but with alot more certainty. The truth be known, I hate Tornado tables. I find them designed for one type of play and that's all there is to it. And that type of play is limited, certainly not my type of play.

[foozkillah]

in amsterdam all they have is old deutscher miesters, some of the locals there are awesome at the double reverse push, it was eye opening.
Either way a pull was still super easy to score with and because of the locals lack of 5 bars it was easy to beat everyone that i played there. those balls are sooo slippery though.

These old Deutscher Meisters have the thin or thick (blocktype) feet?  And are they using the hard white balls?  Are the spring bushings also the later wide/thick ones that made wall passing a conscious compression process?

[Will17]

they had the thin feet, hard white balls, and a spring bushing that had to be conciously compressed to pass wall.

[foozkillah]

they had the thin feet, hard white balls, and a spring bushing that had to be conciously compressed to pass wall. 

Wow... that brings me back to my engineering soph/junior years at Iowa State's Memorial Union!  I had a ton of fun on those tables... I had a nice double-rev push, but I just preferred the simple set push shot, and yes I learned to shoot back and front pins very well with those white balls.  The thicker block-type feet made for better pinning, but the thin ones did allow quicker set to a pin or heelshot.  I'd also developed a very nice "skip" or shallow banked wall pass along with a cut "up" pass the other way ...

All this changed within months in the winter of 79/80 ... They had gone through two Deutsch Meisters at the Union, had TS greentops at the Copper Dollar bar in downtown Ames, and they had one TS greentop at Dugan's Deli, on the edge of off-campus housing.  Went to Warren, OH, to work at GM as a co-op engineer, and came back in spring term to see a TS bluetop quartermillion dollar table at the union, and the downtown Copper Dollar's 8 blue and green tops had been replaced by milliondollar TS browntops.  Dugan's Deli, the campus student cum biker bar, by then also had a browntop.  The browntops had already taken over in southeastern Ohio, where I was co-op'ing with GM.  The DeuMeusters just seemed to disappear ...

[Old Meister]

'Killa, it was a great way to learn the game , going through the progression of tables, wasn't it? I liked the way you could 'hook' a push or pull on the DM's.  That is one thing I miss, the feedback from feeling the weight of the ball as you did a push or pull. I can hook a pull ok on Tornados but it doesn't have the nice feel and as much of a hook. I've yet to play on a Warrior and I dearly hope some of those qualities are there like the old tables. I would compare it to flying an old biplane to one of these newer computer controlled airplanes. One you feel everything and the other you feel only hydraulics.

[foozkillah]

'Killa, it was a great way to learn the game , going through the progression of tables, wasn't it? I liked the way you could 'hook' a push or pull on the DM's.  That is one thing I miss, the feedback from feeling the weight of the ball as you did a push or pull. I can hook a pull ok on Tornados but it doesn't have the nice feel and as much of a hook. I've yet to play on a Warrior and I dearly hope some of those qualities are there like the old tables. I would compare it to flying an old biplane to one of these newer computer controlled airplanes. One you feel everything and the other you feel only hydraulics. 

I know exactly that "feel" you're talking about with hooking the shots.  It ends up with a sorta pop!  Some proM taught me an adjustment years ago, I can't even remember which one..

For the pull, hold the back of your hand flat on top of the handle, with a handshake grip so you can see the "diamond" outline on top with your forefinger at the top of "diamond".  Now, before you shoot you pull slightly with your upper fingers on the front bottom of the handle and use the butt of your palm on top of the handle as a fulcrum.

Yes, you can't really lift the far end of the rod, kinda like trying to carry the rod from one end, but it's only a momentary pressure.  Shooting the pull while "maintaining" the carry prevents unnecessary upper arm and shoulder motion, and doing that old wristsnap pull feels just like the old DM hook!  Reversing the pressure points for a push seems to work the same way, momentarily trying to "lift" your end of the rod (the handle end).  But just momentarily.  Really weird, but it works.  I remember being incredulous at how I could "pop" the pulls and pushes, for longs and splits.  Just like I used to with the DM's.

[Old Meister]

'Killa,I've felt it. I know exactly what you are talking about. I just wish I could get it with the push. But the thing about the push is on the backpin reversal push I get this real nice smooth execution as long as I don't force it. It even surprises me sometimes. I guess it is an acceptable sacrifice as it is hard to read and is supported by the simple pin pull option off the back pin.