Topic: New Thread for Alan Cribbs

[foozkillah]

In deference to not hijacking the original thread about hoping Shelti would take over Tornado-Valley:

Brian,

From what I was told, they are manufacturing in the U.S. and would phase out of the Asian manufacturing market.
There's an interesting thread by Arthur Mitchell on the foosballboard to the ITSF.
Take a look and see what you think.
We had played with the idea of sanctioning a few ITSF events where there was no prize money awarded and a single elimination format. Since it breaksdown to a points chasing game anyway, we were going make it a free eventsfor points and get the thing out of the way of the focus of our traditional events. We were going to have to appease the points chasers with the ITSF ball and maintain the majority of the players with the corkball which in turn gave us more financial stability in covering payouts, expenses and charitable donations. It really starting taking the fun out of foosball events for us. The decision to stop ITSF sanctioning because of ball issues and withdrawing from USTSF sanctioning until the financial use of Bonzini U.S.A. players fees is discussed was easy. We are still having tournaments, we are still selling tables and we are still having fun with foosball.
I guess this is a highjacked thread. Sorry.

Later,
AC

NC Foosball Open in 2 weeks!

Alan,

Your group's decision to forego continued ITSF sanctioning for the benefit of your own group's purposes MAY be the best example for Tornado-Valley to look at.  There definitely is life after loss of sanction by the USTSF and the ITSF.  Bonzini-USA is still for Bonzini-USA.

Your scheduled functions and charities and general aims and mission are still running full well and quite healthy, from the looks of their participation.  And although I really would not be hurt by this upcoming conversion to single-goal figure rods and a more homogenized, eventually ubiquitous common world table, due to my formative foos years on about 9 or so other tables on 4 continents, JUST THE THOUGHT of having outside influences, with absolutely no care nor thought for US Domestic foos, getting so much input and influence, galls me to no end.

With the onrush of complaints from Brit and Euro players on this and foosballboard.com about why their top-ranked players should be ranked so high at pro and promaster at US events, when they seem to insist that the typical pro or even promaster-rated Euro or Brit player would only be rated high expert or semipro here, it seems like Tornado and the USTSF have done the same things as if the NBA had decided to change its rules and specifications to match European league basketball and allowed their refs and/or officials any kind of standing in NBA league or promotional events play ... ie... utterly inane and stupid.

And yes, I do agree with those Euro and Brit players.  The league system they foster in Europe, despite the 10s of thousands of members they profess to have, is similar to the true league bowling and billiards and darts leagues we have here.  These leagues are built to encourage regular weekly and more play, with tremendous handicapping to promote very equilateral enjoyment down to the rookie or beginner levels, and not a lot of pressure to win out.   Domestic US foosball, INCLUDING YOUR BONZINI tournaments and events, are basically money games closer to professional tournaments.  The weeklies are definitely for much smaller pots than other pro sports/games, but definitely (in IRS terms) money games that absolutely and mercilessly promote winning out and finishing consistently, in order to make headway vs just bleeding money and costs.  Much more mercenary, much more professional-like.  Which is also why I believe that North American foosball, based on money given to the elite or best & most consistent, which welcomes many beginners to the mix by throwing them to the wolves, results in a much HARDER, more BRUTALLY CONSISTENT top cadre of players, whether they play on Tornados, Warriors, Bonzinis or Cammons(?) or Sheltis.

I would, IMHO, say the difference between the majority of US pro and higher players to their counterparts in the Euro leagues is exactly the same as the difference between professional pool and professional TV bowling players versus the higher ranks of the APA or Valley pool leagues and the higher ranks of the thousand-plus or so domestic bowling leagues.  A very discernible difference AND MINDSET.

In other words, if one took the US's top ten TV pool or bowling pros and put them up against the top ten league champions from across the country, the league players would put up a fight, but the pros would win out, given neutral playing fields or tables.  The same with US domestic foosball "League" and tour players used to playing money games every week, even everyday, vs the top European league champions on a neutral table.   Including your Bonzini-USA player "leagues," US domestic foosball leagues and groups are closer to poker leagues and groups. THEY ARE MONEY PLAYERS, honed for sometimes decades on a WEEKLY, EVEN DAILY or NIGHTLY basis, AND ARE DESIGNED TO ROB THE BANK, PIMP THE WIFE AND DAUGHTER, SELL THE SON, MUG GRANDMA, AND ANYTHING ELSE TO WIN, AS BEST AS POSSIBLE.   Which is exactly what those Euro and Brit players are saying.  I believe them..  at least on weekly or nightly money tables like Tornado or Warrior or whatever.

Playing one or more weeklies for years in North America is akin to going one or more times a week to the classic old Western-style cowboy and mining-town saloon or riverboat casino, to play poker for money and getting drunk on gin and whiskey, sometimes getting shot at.  Not quite like your weekly Saturday family-night bowling league outing.  Or even better, not quite like playing in a weekly 10,000 member Euro league for a chance to get free entries to that even bigger VIFA style event, at the neighboring European capital city, a mind-numbing 200 or so kilometers away.

[Alan Cribbs]

Brian,

Nice post.
Whether or not we (Bonzini U.S.A.) participate in the sanctioning of events will not have a great effect on the foosball world.

But what is gained by sanctioning?

When we state that an event is sanctioned by Bonzini U.S.A. it is clear to the players that they will be held accountable to the Code of Conduct/Ethics, points will be tabulated for the ELO ranking system we have in place, tournament results are recorded for historical information, and paid winnings are recorded and reported to the IRS accordindingly via the distribution of 1099 forms at the end of the year. So for us, when we state that an event is sanctioned by Bonzini U.S.A., the players and the organization are assured that the company is taking evey measure possible to protect their long term interest. When working with the number of charities that we do, every $ has to be accounted for. We are a player owned and operated organization that works hard to grow the game. It would be hard for me and/or my company to state we are about supporting the players without taking these measures. Our company profits off the sell of tables and corporate tournament services not the players, not the charities. Hence forth, the reason I hate being referred to as a PROMOTER. We use the term Tournament Host and Event Organizer. Zero profit tournaments are the only way I'll go as long as I am still running this business.

ITSF sanctioning you recieve points for a fee.
USTSF sanctioning you recieve support services () for a fee.

When these entities look into setting better guidelines to protect a players best interest, then we will look into sanctioning our events with other Federations and/or player organizations. I think there needs to be more information available to tournament promoters from the USTSF, USTSA, and ITSF that will educate organinzers how to protect themselves and their players from potentially harmful business practices.

Didn't mean to rant, but I think our meaning of a "sanctioned events" carries more weight for the players. I really love this game and took it for granted many years ago. I just want to be able to hand it over in better shape than what I put it in when I quit playing in 1990. With the way we operate the business I can at least sleep at night. Correction, sleep during the day.


Later,

AC

[Tyler Foos]

Friends,

Nice dialogue. And with April 15th coming on us fast - if you've won more than $600 at foosball tournaments, the IRS, with those really long arms, does expect their cut. Get those 1099's early!

Tyler

[Tyler Foos]

Friends,

I just had an interesting conversation about the IRS and foosball with my accountant, and I was inaccurate about my $600 comment above. The $600 amount is the reporting threshold for payers of prize money to players. If I win $500 at Bonzini USA events in one year, Alan is not required to provide me a 1099, but if I win $700 he is required to. However, from the players standpoint, it is technically required (many don't) that any and all winnings from foosball (or darts, pool, etc.) be listed under 'other income', regardless if a 1099 has been provided or not. The $600 I originally thought was a tax liability level is in fact the level the government requires the payer of funds (the business) to report that income paid out. As a player, every penny of prize money is legally required to be declared, be it $1 or $1,000 or whatever amount.

Sorry to clutter up your thread, guys. Having to file business taxes myself, and knowing the business tax deadline is March 16 (usually the 15th, this year that's a Sunday) I figured I'd bring it up while there was still time to react, for those who weren't aware.

Tyler

[Alan Cribbs]

Thanks Tyler,

This is exactly how we have operated for the last 10 years.
Players earning prize money are required to submit their Social Security # for 1099 filing purposes.
It's the only way to protect our players and our business.
Legally and ethically correct.

AC

[Tyler Foos]

Alan,

WOW - the more questions I ask my accountant, the more I realize why you have always been such a stickler for playing by the IRS rules!

A couple follow up questions to my accountant revealed some sobering answers, namely the consequences for NOT following the governments 1099 guidelines. There is a $50 penalty for each and every 1099 submitted that doesn't provide a social security number by the issuer (the business), meaning the 1099 only having a name. For any situation (back to the $600 minimum reporting threshold) where a player should have been issued a 1099 but never was, that penalty doubles to $100 for each instance, and is cumulative with interest. Example - if you had 100 players that won more than $600 in a given year but you never issued a 1099, you would owe the IRS $10,000 in penalties. If you never produced 1099's in your 10 years of hosting tournaments, you would also face interest penalty fines (each year's interest rate is different) for each and every instance a 1099 wasn't issued for prior years. This means that if you averaged 100 players per year that weren't issued 1099 forms, you would be liable for well over $150,000 to the government, payable immediately! Yeah, I can see how that might put a dent in your business...WOW.


Tyler

[foozkillah]

Tyler,

Thanks... and yeah, that's fr*&kin' scary....
I guess there would be consequences for saying, "my dog ate those 1099's!"
And from what I read, it doesn't matter if you won $900 or so one tournament and lost half that amount in expenses 10 other times that year.. ohboyohboy..  I guess you could declare all those expenses... at the end, but you'd still have to report each winning venture...

[Tyler Foos]

Brian,

Hey, man! Sorry to jump all over your thread with all this tax info!

The IRS comment in your original post got me thinking about the letter a Tornado exec wrote to players a while back, which was posted on Phil's board but I believe was lost when he got hacked. I remember it made brief mention of the importance of correct accounting as it relates to protecting the players and the overall legitimacy of the sport/game, and although I couldn't tell if it was pointing a finger in any particular direction or simply making a blanket statement, it was enough for me to ask my accountant a couple questions. As a Bonzini player, my tour experiences have all been to Alan's events, and as a novice player my winnings are too small to mention. But in watching the way Alan and Gloria account for every penny (I hosted 4 events on his tour) I gained a real sense of appreciation for the behind the scenes work that must take place at the really large scale events. Learning that every penny of registration fees, table usage fees - any and all money collected in the course of running an event - must be accounted for and reported as money coming in, then offset (by whatever degree) by payouts to the players (reported by 1099's) and other expenses...man, hats off to those that make organized foosball available to us players!!

Take care............................................Tyler

[foozkillah]

That's cool, Tyler..

It is relevant that the IRS is always always always looking at games that draw and pay money, albeit in small doses..  They are wary, because, out of the tens of thousands of nickel & dime weekly home or club poker games across the USA, all illegal, of course, several do turn into bigger ventures that always bring the temptation of using them for undocumented money making and accounting.  And that's been true, even way before this current poker boom. 

Foosball payoffs, which have strong parallels to private home and club poker, ALSO SUFFERS FROM ITS HISTORY of money skulduggery around the late 70's to the 80's with huge unrecorded purses, unpaid monies, etc... complete with $10K+ money funds disappearing with some organizers to non-extradition locations.  The Treasury has a full folder on foosball money events, and there is no leniency or "let alone" policy... and there never will be.  Everything has to be above board.

Which is another reason I like organized foosball DYP's and BYP's and singles...  You put your money where your mouth is, you bring your skills and test your luck regularly, just like those weekly poker nights, even before this Hold-Em craze.  Once you're a player with some skills, it's now a money game...  not an arcade or pub game anymore...  I would rather play a weekly or monthly money 9ball or open bowling tournament than any of those pool or bowling league nights I've had the misfortune of being on over the past decades where you see grown players  whining and crying over the stupidest things.

Money games are sooooo North American, or "gringo" if you will.  You win out, you break even, or you get your blood sucked.    Period.  And the best players, the coldest and hottest and most consistent, are always going to be those money players in this environment.  Foosball, poker, or any casino game, legit or not,  there is no "cool"  ... no real need.  These players will never be "cool," like that poor guy who was so cool he got trampled to death running from bulls in Spain, or cool as that super "Mr BongHit" swimmer with a billion gold medals, or cool like those Russian chess grandmasters that keep racking up their "cool" points...  Just what you did the last foosnight.. or last tournament..  Did you rob the bank?  Or did the bank rob you?  That is the environment that breeds very very strong professionals.

[jparris]

I would like to say that I consider foosball a hobby. So, in looking at that in the taxes, you put down the earned money (under hobby), then take off the same amount in expenses when you itemize. The IRS did not have a problem with it. I researched and read many IRS documents to find this out.
Jim

[foozkillah]

I would like to say that I consider foosball a hobby. So, in looking at that in the taxes, you put down the earned money (under hobby), then take off the same amount in expenses when you itemize. The IRS did not have a problem with it. I researched and read many IRS documents to find this out. Jim

Good point... if you keep a little book (for that question in any possible audit) for small wins and losses on a weekly basis..  If the moneys get higher though, like they do in some cities with averages of 18-26 teams 2-3 times a week, they might not accept that.  It's all thresholds, if I recall..   What they look for is the bigger anomalies..  same as in big poker games...

Here's a sample from my former classmate/bookie/buddy.... Run a tournament with $50 to $250 packages, then run ghost brackets for say 50 ghost players that don't really exist ...  paying the packages for some of your friends, too..  50 X $200 = $10,000 washed, dried, folded.. completely laundered.  Duhhhhh....  Also the main reason titty bars are so popular among some family organizations....  Dropping cash into legit operations one owns.... from the illicit ones.. an old, time-honored family or clan practice ....  perfect for stablizing weekly cash flows..

[Tyler Foos]

Hey Jim, it's been a while!

Interesting on the hobby reporting info. As long as you aren't reporting losses and keep it a not-for-profit situation, it looks (from what I've read) you will keep the IRS happy. When a 1099 is produced for foosball it is labeled 'miscelaneous income' which I guess could be listed on your return as 'hobby' as easily as 'other' or 'miscelaneous'. The 3 out of 5 year profitability test that comes into play with reporting as a hobby sounds like somewhat of a pain, but as long as you break even it sounds like a good way to report it.

I hope things are going well with you and I hope to see you at a Bonzini USA event in the near future. Are you going to SC in early May?

Take care and be well..................................Tyler

[jparris]

Hey Tyler! It has been a long time. I guess huge payout amounts cound not be considered a hobby. Yes, I will be in SC this May. Then off to France for the Bonzini World Cup. Jim

[jparris]

Speaking of taxes. I was wondering. If a foreigner wins the World's Tornado championships and maybe other events where he takes home thousands of American dollars, are there any taxes taken out? Is he paid in cash or by check? Is it possible that no taxes are reported at all for this? Just curious. Jim

[Tyler Foos]

Jim,

I meet with my accountant tomorrow morning and I'll ask. Not to challenge your procedure but out of curiosity, I'll also see what his input is about going the hobby route compared with other options. Actually, 1099's are required to be provided to individuals by Jan 31st, so my initial comment about getting them early was already way late. The whole conversation about taxes, reporting and protecting the players is more complicated than I realized!

Take care, my friend.......................................Tyler