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For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion

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For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« on: April 12, 2009, 11:51:43 PM »
How many blocks do you figure a goalie should make in a game to win, how many times should a good goalie score? I know that there are a lot of variables but in pro matches what would you say is good?

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2009, 07:05:23 AM »
You are right, there are a ton of variables.

As the saying goes, in a tight match, a goalie only needs to block one shot which can be the deciding factor in winning that match. I have been in several games with power forwards where they were hitting on all cylinders and I just made one block and changed the momentum to win that game.

One of the craziest games that I have lost, I blocked the forward every single shot... yes every shot and still lost the game. The goalie scored 4, and then on a defensive switch on the five, the other forward finally scored a shot on my forward who was now in the goal. Simply nuts.

As far as percentages go, anything that approaches 30 or 40 percent is excellent, especially against a top pro master forward. The goal is just so damn big and it is really hard to stop these guys. I have never found it yet, but I had a dvd of me and Thor Donovan playing Todd and Rico in Championship Doubles in which I blocked Rico at a 66 percent clip. I had him so confused he would call timeout sometimes to bring Todd up for a big shot. Though we lost that match, I considered it a personal victory because I had the world's best forward scrambling to score. Anything that approaches 50 and beyond is simply brilliance. There is a reason these guys are the top forwards and if you can stop them 30 to 40 percent of the time, you are excelling in your duties.

A good goalie does not have to score. What a good goalie has to do is CLEAR. A good goalie that clears will eventually score. The best shooting goalies are also some of the best clearing goalies. Whenever a goalie scores it is GRAVY. The team of McMillen and Gummeson did not become a great team until Tracy acquired defensive goalie skills.

What I live by,
Three areas of concentration for me to be a good goalie in a match. Be good in two out of three and you can win.
Blocking, which includes slop.
Trapping, not letting the ball out of your area.
Clearing, advancing the ball to a favorable position which includes scoring.

Ex. even if you are not blocking, all you need do is not let balls leave your area, and clear the ball down the table. If your forward makes one block on the five, you can win.

If you are not trapping, but you are blocking and clearing the ball. Your turnovers are not hurting you as much because you are keeping the forward out of the goal, which buys your forward time.

However, but being bad in two out of the three is death. Even if you are clearing, if you are not blocking and also not trapping, you are giving the opposing forward extra opportunities to score.

I've got two Iceisms for you.
It's not how many you block, it's WHEN you block.
You're only as good as your NEXT block not your LAST.

Hope that helps.

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2009, 08:36:24 AM »
It does. Thanks. I need to get with a good forward and work on the clearing aspect as I have a forward's mentality and shoot too much I guess. I had a great time at a bigger tournament and beat or blocked some of the "who's who's". Those matches I lost I still felt I had done my job as I knew I was blocking over 60% but wanted to know where to focus on improving. I shoot mainly from the push side, a push or push-kick and wondered what are some of the clearing options you would use?

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2009, 09:43:16 AM »
here's some advice from an amateur who plays forward most of the time and isn't that great at blocking. take it or leave it.

If you want to get really good at goalie, practice on one of the old valley tables. Those goals are freaking huge compared to these new tornado's, and the feet are wider on the newer tables as well. I remember when I went from my 70s valley-dynamo to the tornado, it was amazing how much better my defense was on the tornado.

Just my 2-cents


Offline Tyler Foos

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Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2009, 10:18:51 AM »
OM,

Good topic. The advice that comes to mind ties in with the 2 basic strategies a forward uses - beating you to a hole and faking you off the hole he wants to shoot. If your race defense isn't working, bait him more. If the bait and switch isn't working, focus on timing the race defense more. I guess what I am saying is if you are blocking 30-40% of the shots coming at you, but most of the ones that do score fit into one of these 2 categories, let that guide you on how to adjust.

Tyler

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2009, 07:18:29 PM »
Oh I study everyone who is anyone. I  show the hole they want in the random defense and then don't show it again so that half the time on that ball is taken up while they wait for it to show again, then I switch to make them reset and then go back to the first defense and block them as they go for option #2.  Next ball I play with their mind in that I beg them to go somewhere, now they know I'm playing some s--t, well it all happens too fast to explain but is just a lot of fun to play "the game". In reading Ice talk about it I know he understands perfectly and could certainly take me beyond where I'm at. I think the game is, "get in their head before they get into yours". ;D

Offline foozkillah

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Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 10:13:18 PM »
.......As far as percentages go, anything that approaches 30 or 40 percent is excellent, especially against a top pro master forward. The goal is just so damn big and it is really hard to stop these guys. I have never found it yet, but I had a dvd of me and Thor Donovan playing Todd and Rico in Championship Doubles in which I blocked Rico at a 66 percent clip. I had him so confused he would call timeout sometimes to bring Todd up for a big shot. Though we lost that match, I considered it a personal victory because I had the world's best forward scrambling to score. Anything that approaches 50 and beyond is simply brilliance. There is a reason these guys are the top forwards and if you can stop them 30 to 40 percent of the time, you are excelling in your duties.......

I would agree wholeheartedly with GitaB, and I regard it as very close, at the highest levels, expert and above, to a collegiate or Major League pro baseball hitter's batting percentage, specifically the ability to protect the strike zone.  When advising (more like consoling !!!  ;D :D ) the goalkeeper, ESPECIALLY MY GOALKEEPER, I remind them that blocking 30-40 % against an expert or better forward is like batting 300 or 400 in a major league baseball game.  And would you believe it, many beginner and rookie goalkeepers who can be blocking a decent forward at only 65 to 70% actually feel dejected in their performance, because they foolishly have the image of a "brickster" or 90% or better blocking, as the only good goalkeeping.  A major league hitter with anything above a sustained 450 clip (Slo-pitch Softball numbers) would be an instant legend!

In advising or instructing newbies and scrubs, it often helps if they've played some baseball or softball.  The "mano-a-mano" old cowboy draw duel is much closer to the 3bar v Goal D of foosball.  And in a tense, close match with money and or titles on the line, the pendulum swings from absolute terror/despair to high exhilaration, although a pitcher and batter are regarded as defense to offense, they are almost analogous!  Much more so than classic field soccer, where the goalkeeper has to contend with other incoming attackers, header shots, etc..., when not in a penalty kick situation.

Those newbies quickly get the idea of blocking to protect the plate (strike zone), and they more quickly realize that they can defend from a standstill (race D) or a motion D, very similar to the hundreds of individual styles of swinging you see in college and MLB and South American baseball.  Making contact is the most immediate and important factor, no matter how one gets there.  They easily understand the importance of stance, alertness, and learning to anticipate an incoming ball without giving away which part of the strike zone is going to be swung through (which part of the goal to be covered, in foos, of course).

Especially at the highest level of both games, where the pitcher or the shooting forward are deadly, and not very prone to giving away hits or homeruns (in foos, a block cleared to one's own forward, or even scored as a "stuff" or spiked point), the typical first priority is to hit that ball and not allow a called strike: protecting the zone.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 10:16:40 PM by foozkillah »

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 05:59:01 AM »
It does. Thanks. I need to get with a good forward and work on the clearing aspect as I have a forward's mentality and shoot too much I guess. I had a great time at a bigger tournament and beat or blocked some of the "who's who's". Those matches I lost I still felt I had done my job as I knew I was blocking over 60% but wanted to know where to focus on improving. I shoot mainly from the push side, a push or push-kick and wondered what are some of the clearing options you would use?

I will post tonight about clearing options from the push side. Turns out that I am one of only four pro goalies that use the push exclusively in competition. As of late however, I have been using a center series to clear the ball.

Offline snake eyes

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Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 09:44:30 AM »
Garrett Scherkenbach shoots a push from goal doesn't he?

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2009, 02:33:14 AM »
Yes he can but he doesn't exclusively, actually he sets up a pull now, but he rarely plays the majors anymore. He also used to do a center series.

Gena Murray, Dana Marr, David Radack, and I are the only pros right now using it as the main series. Although as of late I have been using a center series to clear sometimes.

I will post push options tomorrow, too late tonight.

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2009, 07:05:28 AM »
When you say you´re using a center series to clear the ball, does that mean that banks are possible now on the new tornado or are you using other options.

Also looking forward to your push options. I´m just learning it to clear the ball.

Anyone who´s interested, there are really nice stats about shooting percentages and passing percentages on netfoos.com. it´s worth a look cause it´s really surprising.



Offline grandmaster

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Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 01:09:13 PM »
My personal thinking is to try and block one shot per game on a hot forward. Then shoot five for five. The assumption here is equal attempts on the three row, five each. Of course this is only a hypothetical...
Oly

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 09:54:37 PM »
I like working off a back pin in setting up my push or pushkick, rocking it close handed. Often I will make a little hook pull on the pushkick just to throw off those who think they will pick me. Thanks Jonny for the heads up about netfoos.com. I'll check it out. Also, how did you do in your tournaments?

Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 04:17:45 AM »
Hey OM,
I bought the book you advised me to and another one I find really interesting. I think I´m already improving. I took second in OD this weekend at a P4P tournament with 250 players and finished 5th in OD at the Tecball WCS. That´s why I´ll put a lot more focus on the mental side from now on, there is so much space for improvement. I liked the mental thread on this forum a lot. Lots of good stuff.

By the way. I figured out that holding the handle more like tony does improved my shot by 100% in consistency and accuracy but also in speed. Maybe it helps you as well if you´re still working on the long snake.


Offline Tyler Foos

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Re: For Iceman and anyone who has an opinion
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 08:10:10 AM »
Joe,

Taking 2nd in open doubles out of a field of 250 is fantastic - sincere congratulations, and for the 5th as well. OM is very in tune about the mental game and you are obviously reaping the rewards of his input. Fantastic all the way around, especially when you can seek advice, take it, apply it, then share the outcome - many thanks for this as well!

Take care............................................Tyler