Topic: Pullshot injuries

[kayko2000]

When I have a 5-hour night of foosball, I tend to feel soreness the next few days.  The two main re-occurring injuries are (both from pullshots):

1. Muscle strain on my mid-traps (just to the left of my right shoulder blade)
2. Sore right wrist

I pretty sure the obvious advice is to relax and stop ripping it so hard.  Especially when I use a recoil, I'm crank like crazy.  Most advice on practicing shots is to go "full speed", go 100%.

Anyway, I'll throw out a general question about how to prevent wrist injuries with a pullshot.  What kind of stretching, warming up, and loosening up should I do?

Anyone ever hurt a trap muscle over lots of pulls?

[kayko2000]

I should note that a 5-hour night isn't 5 hours of constant playing.
It's my weekly gathering with folks from my area where we alternate.

[foozkillah]

When I have a 5-hour night of foosball, I tend to feel soreness the next few days.  The two main re-occurring injuries are (both from pullshots):

1. Muscle strain on my mid-traps (just to the left of my right shoulder blade)
2. Sore right wrist

I pretty sure the obvious advice is to relax and stop ripping it so hard.  Especially when I use a recoil, I'm crank like crazy.  Most advice on practicing shots is to go "full speed", go 100%.

Anyway, I'll throw out a general question about how to prevent wrist injuries with a pullshot.  What kind of stretching, warming up, and loosening up should I do?

Anyone ever hurt a trap muscle over lots of pulls?

Pretty common ailment.  First of all, dunno where you learned your pull, but at pro and proMaster level as seen on YouTube and other sources.... Recoil is unnecessary for deadbars or even 7's beyond the goal.  Mostly used for pullshooters trying to pump themselves up and to show off.  The biggest clue is watching pros shooting deadbar snakes or deadbar pullkicks.  For every rollover or pullkick with tons of jarring return motion, there are 20-30 others who have a slight return motion and still kick that ball in just as loudly and just as squarely or even with stroke angle (as in a 7).  The initial torque on those rolling pinned snakes or the built-up inertial speed on a long pullkick belie the need to recoil violently.  Especially if you use maximum wrist,including on your recoil.  Players who punch in with the forearm and shoulder alleviate this a bit, but still have a faulty technique, not good for outlasting opponents in a DYP or Bring.

Watch Terry Rue's or Tommy Adkisson's or Tom Yore's or TMac's or Todd Loffredo's extremely square or better pulls.  Even Rico's when he used it to win one Euro championship.  Hardly any recoil, just the natural return.   THAT's ?YOUR BIG GLARING CLUE: WRONG PULL TECHNIQUE.  Watch Ezekiel Cervantes' YouTube vid... very relaxed, but just as square, just as loud and fast.  If you're shooting and it hurts, that's pretty automatic: WRONG TECHNIQUE.  AT LEAST FOR YOU AND YOUR PHYSIQUE.  There are dozens of others.. find one that doesn't hurt and practice that....

Can't tell you how many 20yr vets who've hurt themselves repeatedly, quit, came back, repeated, etc.. who have that silly recoil and can get maybe one or two deadbars but then gag.   Then I look them in the eye and blast a 7 again and again on them that often pops out.  I like that "all those wasted f*ckin' years...." look in their eye.  And then I get a rookie to blast them even worse... but I teach them to look me, not the poor old schooler in the eye... rooks and noobs have to have SOME MODICUM OF RESPECT, Y'know?

[Old Meister]

The toss doesn't need to be an explosion but rather a happening. The tension needed for an explosion uses a bunch of muscles that aren't really needed for a fast pull shot. A relaxed grip and smooth 3/4 power toss which is then redirected against the inertia by the stroke. Thus a nice squared off or better shot that has a nice smack to it. The more relaxed those unneeded opposing muscles are the faster, and easier on the body, the shot will be.

[kayko2000]

That's interesting advice.  Looks like I need to look at this again and re-consider whether or not I need the recoil.

I used to have a consistent pull, but seeing everyone on message boards seemed to say "need the recoil", I started practicing that.  I found a little success and found that 30% of the time, I could get a sweet whip and it felt GOOD.  But the consistency wasn't there, and then I was slowly finding that practicing lots of pulls with the recoil ended in the soreness I listed.

But I'll see if I can find some tournament footage of some of those players listed above.

Thanks.

[bbtuna]

hard recoils are hard on your wrist at least ...one from the sharp unnatural torque turn used to may the rod go in the other direction but also from slamming the wall (i know about this big time)

natural follow through is important but the rest is...well, extra

[Chase Pennell]

I think when using a pull shot having a recoil is a must. This dosnt mean that you need to use it every time. You just need to know how to have that stroke. A pull shot isnt just a 7 stroke, or a spray long, it is everthing in between. The best example is golf in this case. Top golfers have tons of differents swings, cuts, hooks, slices, ect. To have a great pull shot you need to be a well rounded pull shooter, you need all of the options, Sprays, Sliders, a good Straight, and a good 7 Stroke. Using whatever shots you need to win.

After tournaments and practice nights my arm always hurts. They key is using whatever stroke it takes to win. If you are lucky you can use one that dosnt hurt your arm....

Also

Ice and Advil Help........

[foozkillah]

From what Kayko2K described, his shot is not ending with what many would call a normal "recoil".  I believe he was describing a very very violent return motion at shot release, specifically one that prolly slams the far bushing on the far wall.

A pullshot with a the required "normal" return motion that might slightly tap the far wall at the end is all that I've ever seen necessary for the most explosive pullshots I've seen for 30+ years.  That started with observing Jim Wiswell's pull when I first started playing college WinterGarden out of Iowa State, through Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa. As a co-op then full engineer for GM in Warren, OH (Cleveland-Youngstown area) and Flint, Ann Arbor, in Michigan, I first saw Tom Spears's & Todd Loffredo's pulls.  Summers in Elk Grove and Chicago, IL, showed me Johnny Lott's and his group's pulls.  I didn't get to observe many interesting monster pulls in the mid-to late 80's in LA or SD on the West Coast, prolly because pushkicks and pullkicks were becoming very popular then.  Evan's and Ronnie Nevois's were pretty good then, though.

Moving later to South Florida, going to Tampa 90's tourneys showed me Johnny Horton's & Tom Yore's pullshots.  No jar, no monster recoil, hardly any wall touches, and the shots had spent all their force and energy before touching on the return motion on the far wall.  No injuries, no table-wrecking, no caveman pulls.  Unless they were showing off or trying to intimidate a defender.

I noted that all the "pounders" with monstrously sounding and jarring pullshots hardly ever made it past a second day of competition shooting with the same power, and I rarely saw them consistently placing over the years.  I also know so many friends and associates over the years who developed horrible, game-stopping wrist, elbow and and shoulder injuries and a lot of arthritic conditions.  I'm glad I realized this a long time ago.  And I can see Todd's pullshot may have lost some of its speed and edge, but it's still as smooth as it was in Cleveland in 77 or 78.  And Tom Yore's is even smoother and as fast, somehow.  Going to DFW Worlds from 94 to 02 also showed me most of the rest of the legendary pulls.

Gamewise, the one thing I noted again and again from all of these pullshooters: most important seems to be the takeoff and shot selection.  Whatever else happens after the takeoff can be different for most shooters, but a good takeoff, whether from standstill, rolling or quickset, seems to be the dominating factor in making the point.

[kayko2000]

This is definitely something I need to play around with.  I just got a Tornado at home!  Just moved it in yesterday.  I don't know how long I have it for (before I have to sell it and move out), so I'll have to take advantage of this time.

Are there any good Loffredo pulls on YouTube?  Or do I really need to be looking at DVDs to see it clearly?
I have to look for some DVDs I bought ... but probably haven't looked at yet.

Cheers,
Kevin

[foozkillah]

Yep, kayko and washepUOB,

Body and weight training, always getting limber with warmups ... that will always help you.

Lots of reps = continued reinforcement of body memory. Always a good thing.

And if you look at monster pulls with hardly any recoil, you might miss the physics class clue: hit or release it where you pulled it in the first place.  This imparts the needed critical rotation.  Same as the pressure point on a baseball when thrown in a fastball from a windup or straight backswing.  Too bad someone can't embed a ghost grid on the foosball as it's being shot in a pull or push...  Developing that critical 1/4 spin or turn through the backswing uses inertia to stabilize the ball, just like throwing a spinning top which will always try to maintain its current position.  Also the same principle behind those superfast click wall passes and bounce-ups that seem so effortless.  They are for me...  once one understands this, deadbars and 2bar pullkicks AND the 2bar deadbar, with the defending middle 3bar figure between the big dot and first near dot, become straightforward.

By having enough inertial spin on the ball, which can only be imparted AT THE TAKEOFF, DUHHHH..... even a rapid lateral move of 4-5 inches with this inertia almost completely removes the need to slam or recoil the ball into a 90degree (or even more) turn into the hole.  Inertia also gives much-needed resistance or the feeling of weight to the ball at release time, that "feel" that really helps in stroking the ball, not just because it's usually placed slightly behind the 3bar rod for those who "squeeze" the ball.   They don't realize their further brushback strokes allow a longer buildup for the rotational energy being put into the ball, which creates the "weight" and not the squeeze.   A good illustration is when they screw up the takeoff and squeeze the ball but it still hits the dang wall...  Idiots....

Those who do the classic squeeze and hit the pull or push or push/pull kick in a not-very-smooth 2-step motion ALWAYS SEEM TO FORGET THERE ARE PLENTY OF PULL-THROUGH SHOOTERS WHO NEVER HAVE TO PULL THE BALL BACKWARDS AT ALL, BUT SEEM TO HAVE GREAT SPEED AND POWER, ANYWAY.   I've known dozens of these 2-step pounding pullshooters who have to always shoot 2-3 racks to warm up, have to shoot out the remaining balls after failing to execute in the matches, and seem to forget the real reason their pullshots were popping reliably into any hole they shot at.  Many of these 2-step pullers or pushkickers forget their actual body position when shooting by themselves - completely different geometry when they're playing doubles, especially with a large partner at goal.  You figure out what really puts the ball quickly in the hole on a pull or push when you practice with the 2bar rod pulled towards your near wall, preferably with a jacket or coat on the handle, to simulate your dubs position.  Once you figure this out, whether or not you understand the inertial forces at work, you can play in a comfortable dubs or singles position without affecting your shot execution.  Fighting mommie nature and her forces leads to MAJOR JOINT AND BACK PAIN, and that's exactly how most of these guys over the decades have had to retire from foosball.

This also is another reason why rollover shooters, who have a much tighter and squarer position for either singles or doubles play, and also pullkickers, have much more reliable shooting results, whether playing sings or dubs.  Pull, push, and pushkickers have the encroachment problem and rarely think to practice or warm up in the correct two positions.  These practicers will "ASSUME" but "NOT THE POSITION," if you know what I mean.  Nothing funnier than a pullshooter finishing out several balls as cleanly and twice as quickly as during the game just concluded, where the keyword was "GAGGING."

Go to a poolhall, to an unused table, take the cue ball and spin it hard in place like a top, then try to punch or karate chop it on the side, and see the force of inertia at work, as opposed to a ball sitting still.  Works in a bowling alley, too, although I would use your own ball, or else those strangers in the next lane may not understand and have you taken away....

[foozkillah]

FoozKillah,

I like that name.
What shot do you think is the most dominate at the top master level?

Easy!  The rollover!  Universally accepted, feared, ridiculed, worshipped, and pondered about at ALL ages and ALL skill levels.   The pull is second, although it's coming back.  and the push/pullkicks are a farther third in dominance.  Keep in mind we're talking dominant, not "BETTER" or "DEADLIER."   Especially with the young'uns.... I'd say the past 10-15 years, 85% or better of newer players select the rollover as their first real kill shot for tournament and organized league or local play.  Thanks to TMac, Gumby, Tom Yore, and even Ryan AND RICO .. the pull shot, because of maturing defenses against rollovers, has been shown to be as deadly, even if still a second in number of proponents.

Because:

1. It uses the physics of the rod weight and cylinder to deliver even deadbar shots on both sides. Less strenuous.
2. It has the straight as readily available (and harder to detect) as any pulls or kicks. Just as complete.
3. It's easier to get up to speed to hit the two basic posts and middle than pulls, kicks. Easier to get working.
4. Almost all rollover mis-hits, stubs, bad shot selections, and shots with tells ARE STILL ON GOAL. Dangerous.
5. Multiple wrist grips and friction areas, even by the same player will still work. Roll shooting makes it universal.
6. Standard Stance is virtually the same for doubles and singles shooting. No natural difference in position.

Who do you think shoots the pull-shot the best?
I don't just mean a monster long either, I am talking about timing, inside game, lift-straight, hard-straight. The off-speed tuck is important to for goalies who bate and race your long.

T-Mac and Tom Yore.  T-Mac from the style of the legendary Smiths Brothers from Houston, and Tom Yore from the Johnny Horton/Loffredo dojo of pullshooting.   They have all those features you mentioned.  I'd say Terry Rue's, Randy Der's, Ronnie Nevois', Tony Nagy's, and Zoller's, are from the same school but their personalities dictate the variations.

My pull is from Jim Wiswell's school.. has those above features too, but includes the "pump": a hard short pull that can be stroked through the first post behind a racing D or through the middle hole, back to the first or straight hole (a mini 7).  Not sure if that "Minnesota Deadly" is also Gumby's style because his timing seems different, but it prolly is, too.  And the long will always be money.

Ryan's could prolly be as good, with all those insane extremes, but he's predominantly a rollover shooter, of course.  Same goes for Rico's, and same qualifier - he's a Europin killer first and foremost.

Seriously!   There's more to mastering the pull-shot than a hard long!  Come on man! Keep it real!   Bob C.  

No argument there... I've played locals and regionals for weeks not shooting a long nor a straight, either, for both discipline and to set the weekly opponents up for the slaughter.   And you're forgetting, whether it's needed in the end or not: THERE'S NO WAY YOU'VE MASTERED A PULL-SHOT WITHOUT THE HARD LONG, SQUARE OR A 7.  IT'S STILL A REQUIREMENT FOR MASTERING THE PULL, AND I MEAN A HARD LONG THAT'S AS RELIABLE AS THE OTHER SELECTIONS!!  Lacking one would still be INCOMPLETE: Same as a National League starting pitcher without at least 1 high-heat fastball, or an American League starting pitcher without a nasty nasty curveball, at least traditionally.

And besides, a hard long is still the easiest selection to practice and to keep interested in.... that's one of the better ways you draw noobs into becoming pullshooters.   Same as daring a Li'l Leaguer pitcher to show off his fastball.  Or a Pop Warner QB to show off his 30yd "bomb."

And keep in mind what you're up against if you try to sell noobs or beginners on a pull.   That other shot can be reliably shot AS HARD, AS LOUD, AND EVEN POPPED OUT by women, and lighter, less bulky kids from 12-18.  Tough competition.  To become a worthwhile pullshooter, you have to be slightly OCD (manic), slightly deranged with Visions of Grandeur on immediate call from the recesses of you rmind (self-motivator), and the ability to bring out the evil and the wrong in ya at any time (partly French from Nantes?).

[foozkillah]

FoozKillah,
I did not mean to confuse you with my questions. Killa'.

No confusion at all washedUOB.  Like I said, those are easy!  Wish the tech-support networking questions I get were as easy.  Foozkillah is my "hood" or "dhown wid it, brah" name.  Also DJ'd in 5 states under that nom de popNlock.

Obviously, by my statement you can see that I shoot a mean pull-shot. Although I did not win any majors in the 70's I finished in the top 5 a lot in singles and won a few state championships. I work for Chevrolet, still the best car on this planet in my opinon. I been up here in Minnesota for about 4 months. I hail' from Michigan but after being layed off from work, they said that I could transfer my job so here I am. I heard the competition in Minnesota is strong, so I plan to start playing a lot more.   Bob C.

I was an Iowa State GM co-op Engineer, then a full one up to level 4 for Packard Electric in Warren-Youngstown-Niles OH, Warren MI, Ravenna-Lordstown-Rootstown OH, Erie PA, Ann Arbor MI, Saginaw & Flint MI(yukkkk!). from 78 to 83.  Worked Methods Lab, Goldbook-Silverbook Cost Reductions/Recovery in Industrial Engg, Reliability Engg, and QC foreman and line foreman during those J-car and Y-car years.  Played the Wintergarden Collegiate tournaments for Iowa State  during my latter college years, 78-81 (while also a co-op)..  Went to Mankato MN and Omaha NE for the foos finals for WinterGarden twice...  Met Jim Wiswell and Doug Furry in MN back then, later on again with Johnny Lott, the NW boys (Fozner, Chezbrough, etal), the Cali boys (Stach,Jeep,Terry,Nagy), and Don Swan(a Canuck... go figger!)  in Chicago and Cleveland.  Of course, Iowa had Thor, Dube and friends, too, back then..

89-date I've been based in South Florida, thanks to helping out some blonde, blue-eyed bombshell Katie (Swedish extraction, GAP model back then).  Bounced between Boston/Cambridge and here (boss built Boston Harbor's legendary Faneuil Hall, among other places)... played at Mad Maggies and Jillians 1 there.  Met King Louie, the Thomas'es and their son, Nate there,  and Nate (Now inPhilly) had his buddy, some young kid named Billy, Nancy Pappas' son.  Nate and Billy were 11, I think..  SoFlo's promoter back then was Michael Cody, moved from Bay City MI and running 91-98 tourneys at PBch Billiards, so I know Michael Smith, his buddy, too.  And I was going to Rudy's and StopSine's before that, in the Tampa,StPete,Clearwater area at the same time ..  Land of Johnny Horton, Tom Yore, Bobby Diaz, Chris Starczewski, Rick Ino, Mike Green, etal.  With Chris Cavaliere (Booger Bates in tow), Rich Wight, Todd, Terry Moore, Russ King, Zoller and Rue ALWAYS VISITING.    SO.... YOU COULD SAY I'VE SEEN A FEW GOOD MEAN PULLSHOTS IN MY TIME.  I CAN DIG IT.  

There's a guy named Gumby in MN, T-Mac's forward in two Tornado Worlds Dubs titles in last 3 years. That's over Rico, Rob Mares, Tommy, Billy and Tony.  Also same team won the 2009 multi-table (5) World Cup in Nantes France for the USofA this past Jan 2009.    Gumby can play a little....  Doug Furry might still go back there, too.  And Brandon Moreland for a visit, from DFW, TX.

check www.minnesotafoosball.com..   I'm sure you could leave a note there, to make sure they know yer commin' to git 'em!  Taking names and laying down the law fer allus dem hackers...  

[Old Meister]

I like to visualize a pull modeled after Gummy's in the Youtube vid with Mac and Gummy making the comeback on Rico and Loffredo. He just shoots it so clean and crisp, kershank! Sweet pull shot!

[foozkillah]

FoosKillah,
     Has not the pull-shot dominated Open Doubles the last 5 years at world tournaments? Oh! By the way, didn't I say at the top level.

Where'd you get that?  Gumby won with T-Mac the first time, methinks, they played last January at the World Cup in Nantes, while Rob Atha and Spinny Joe got the dubs World Championships a few days before, also in Nantes, with Rob a definite rollover shooter.  Gumby and T-Mac have the 2 of last 4 Tornado Worlds dubs, but Rico (Europin) should have dominated the rest of the Worlds singles and dubs the past 5 years.  Spredey's a rollover man, as well as Billy and Rob and Tommy, for the most part.  Don't believe a pullshooter like Germany's Tim Ludwig dominated their P4P or even the newer TecBall tour.   You know who owns all the Low Countries and their Leonhart-Jupiter-Kicker style tournaments, too.  You'd have to check each of their websites to see who dominated Open Dubs the past 5 years.  Maybe Ed G's FAST database has it or something... but I doubt it.

Where can I get Loffredo on video at his best shooting a pull-shot. Do you know how to get in contact with him? Get me his number if you can, or put me in contact with someone that can get his number. Thanks! Bob C.

Dunno, somewhere or in my storage, I have VHS tapes of 93-98 Worlds and other Tornado majors from Jim, and he's in several of those... But for classic Todd playing front (since 77 I believe) and displaying his monster pull, you'd have to scrounge from bootlegs... I saw him jump in front several times but like everyone else viewing vids then, my buddies and I usually fastforwarded to those matches that featured Johnny Horton's, Tommy's, Rob's, and Tom Yore's, pullshots.  Much more entertaining, especially after the shot itself.

[Old Meister]

Sorry bro, don't have clippage but when Loffredo was asked what he did to get the power in his pull he said it was throwing his hip into the pull. Basically a full body pull. Just a personal observance though, you can only be a shadow of someone else but you can be totally you. Try it all out and use what works,,,