Topic: Changing Tour Foosball to Timed Play IS MORONIC

[foozkillah]

Here's the text of my comment on ITSF Time Limited foosball:

Changing to Timed FOOSBALL IS MORONIC

Shortening the time allotments instead of forcing a game at the limit, like soccer and most field sports would seem to be the more intelligent way to speed up games.  And live action is the only worry, while all canned programs or on tape delay can of course be edited.

Shortening the time per rod area and not enforcing a time limit to force game, would prevent really altering the game into something completely different.  Even other successful indoor sports on TV, namely bowling and pocket billiards, may have had the elimination procedure changed to expedite it, but they still have to bowl 10 frames per match and they still have to pocket the 8 or 9 ball or the rack, in pocket pool.  Putting a time limit to completely alter standard 4+ decade strategy would be as STUPID as shortening the no. of frames in bowling, or ending a pocket billiard game before the requisite 8 or 9 or completion.

Yes, they now have more and more time limits for taking a shot or time out in pool, and similarly in bowling, but they do not IDIOTICALLY ALTER THE VERY NATURE OF THE GAME by enforcing time limits for the match.   Same thing for tennis: they limit the time alloted to serve and to be ready for the ball, but they still have to win each game at 40, or by two.  All these organizations seem to get by pretty well, especially since most events are now canned for editing and later broadcast, or at least tape-delayed.  AND THIS HASN'T HURT THEIR POPULARITY or SALEABILITY to SPONSORS IN THE LEAST.  As opposed to how it would really alter and probably ruin the need for skill in bowling and pool, or table tennis or volleyball or golf, even.  The only addiitons should be perhaps shorter time clocks for passing or shooting.

As players have described, this has already altered the game and RADICALLY ALTERING ITS NATURE IN THE RECENTLY CONCLUDED MASTERS, versus the old standard which has been workable and pretty successful over the past 40+ years.  That would be as stupid as putting a max-min on a valid game such as baseball in a DOMED OR INDOOR VENUE.  Just plain stupid.  Or forcing a time limit and calling a match in indoor tennis.  Golf and outdoor sports like baseball or football, yes, but otherwise really really stupid.  A 1-nil score can now win a world foos championship?  Beat Tiger Woods by birdie'ing first after 15 holes and winning as time ran out?  Win a pool tournament after pocketing 4 balls and playing pure defense?  Bowl 8 frames and win a PBA title?  That is so repulsive I could puke!!

I hope someone realizes how moronic this is before Worlds.  It is so ridiculous I still can't believe they enforced this crap.  A player could theoretically be ahead 1-0 or 2-1 and play keep-away?  Banging the ball against the end walls to restart one's clock? 

Mary and Brendan, I don't care if you shorten the time limits per rod, even the points per game, but I think you both realize that keeping play to force scoring to a set total will attract ALL THE BEST SHOOTERS AND DEFENDERS AND BASICALLY ALL FOOSERS WHO WISH TO WIN BY SKILL, instead of a completely brain-dead timed version of foosball.  The USTSF/ITSF events can get dominated by ABSOLUTELY RETARDED players who couldn't score 3 points, let alone 5, in a game.  But they could still win by slopping in 1-3 points first and just playing four corners!!!

If that happens, then eventually the top USTSF Players will no longer challenge the world's best, just the world's retards.   SO MANY ITSF BACKERS JUST DON'T REALIZE HOW INSIDIOUS THESE CHANGES WILL BE.    For one thing, Tornado taking advice and input from ANY group or source that HAS ALREADY REPEATEDLY AVOWED DISGUST AND DISTASTE FOR NORTH AMERICAN PLAY, ALTHOUGH IT DEFINITELY IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD, is so mind-boggling I can hardly believe how suicidal Tornado is. And the best players with the most skill and absolutely deserving of such will come from Warrior and IFP.  I hope the rest of the sponsors of states and super-regionals for Tornado do not follow this path towards oblivion.  But Tornado really seems hellbent on it.  Then Tornado foosball will become just like electronic air hockey and bubble hockey...  Who knows?  Maybe Kelye Stites and ChampShuf will really sell foosball tables like hotcakes like that.   Good luck with getting a sizable market with that.

[bbtuna]

killa,

tell us how you really feel...

if they did it to speed up the game, that is stupid...foosball is already a short enough set the way it is...it won't be anytime in our life-time they go to live play anyway, so as long as they are pre-recorded, they can edit to their hearts content

if you want to make the game more watchable, that can be found with annoucers, back stories, explanation of action and strategy, and graphics

it is for sure a totally different game to change it to time limit rather than number of games...try that in Tennis or Ping Pong and see how that works, I think these are the closest comparrison

then, to add insult to injury, you make them 2 ten minute "halves"  that is insluting...you want it fast, why not just go to race to 7 single elimination, that will get it all over with quick 

have i ever mentioned how much I hate race to 7?  it is an insult to professional foosball and those trying to move through the ranks...if the tournament needs time, find it someplace else...there are many other options

to Valley - you want to experiment, fine, no problem, I applaude you for it, even if it is something off the wall/out of the box like this but how about some damn planning...how about telling people ahead of time...how about trying it out in an event that isn't so visible/special...how about some PLANNING, some real thought, some consideration to the wider impact, to COMMUNIATION

[Daniel]

Ok I added a poll on this go vote.
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=2700.0

[gitablok]

Just curious Killa...

Who said this was something instituted by the ITSF? No European tourney currently has time play in any tourney and has no plan to as I understand, I could be wrong but I don't think so.

As I understand it, that idea came from someone right here in the good ole US of A. How do I know? That person lives right here in town, and he said it was an idea that he wanted to try out.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I would really like to know how you linked the ITSF to this. Was it in some press release or something? I just get really tired of people starting rumors about things they may have heard about instead of really knowing.

I agree with you, what I saw Tom Yore doing so he would beat Rick Macias was pathetic and was just not appealing to watch by any means. But to link it to the ITSF is wrong also.

[foozkillah]

Ice,

So far there have been calls on several boards asking who put this through, and you're right, the idea is so insidious and ruinous of foosball as we know it, that it's unthinkable someone on the Tornado-Valley OR foosers side actually sponsored it.   Thank you for coming forward.  So this someone right here has never been in or on any USTSF/ITSF committee?  Never been involved except in this one (Masters) of few ITSF-sanctioned events in the USA?   Was or is he one of the old Tornado-Valley-Dynamo guard?

If so, then you're right, I am shocked and retract those ITSF insinuations.   Everyone knows they're only thinking of what's good for the home of the best professional foosball in the world, right?   And it will be a great relief that the ITSF disapproves of timed play across-the-board.  Even for US & Tornado events, the best players of which I'm sure they were really proud to showcase at the last Worlds and World Cup.   In fact, I'm sure Farid, after observing this, will be less worried that Tornado players and the countries they play in will come up with a superior professional worldwide tour with the best players in the world, like the ATP Grand Prix or PGA/LPGA tours or Main Event Poker.  You're absolutely right, I TAKE IT BACK, he and the ITSF don't need to do anything to hurt Tornado, since it seems to do the very best job by itself.

And now we know from among the US organizers, this instigator or head of a group is from the DFW area?   And he was able to push this through?  There was no trial or probationary tournament test?  No let's check it out before committing to a Masters event where Tornado is fighting for its commercial tournament life, along with everyone else in the world economy?  Was there hopefully some resistance?  Like somebody at least tried to explain to the guy in the parking lot or at least throw an old foosball wrap at him?  Even raise their voice?

I'd like to see someone on the American Bowling Congress committee put forward a proposal to allow switching their championship matches to timed play, removing the emphasis on being as perfect (300) a bowler as possible but instead force the best players to just getting ahead and hoping the time runs out on their opponent.  Or someone on the Billiard Congress of America proposing to end premier championship matches on timed play, instead of having them put in the last required ball (8 or 9) or whole side on the table to complete a game?  How did someone propose this at Tornado and actually not get shouted down, ejected from the committee out the window, or even just laughed off the podium?  Did he have an IED strapped on him?

[Tyler Foos]

I agree that timed foos would be a bad move. I can't find the conversation about Tom Yore and what he did against Rick Macias - what happened?

Thanks...............................Tyler

[gitablok]

No Killa,
This person is not involved with the USTSF or the ITSF. And yes, he was part of the old Valley guard.
I will however not mention his name because he is not here to defend himself, so out of respect I wll not mention his name. He is needed however if the Tornado table is going to survive in my opinion because he is the last of the Mohicans as far as Tornado is concerned.

This idea was tested a little in St. Louis so this was not the first time everyone had seen it. This person was trying to test out an idea he thought might make the game more exciting to watch and not so much speed it up. Problem was, Tom Yore has once again found a loophole in the rules of which to exploit. And as with many new ideas, sometimes you don't see every thing that can happen. He was thinking much like the shot clock in basketball when he came up with this idea but he overlooked one thing. Unlike in basketball, you can basically reset the clock with a loss of possession and then getting it back. In other words, pass the ball backwards, which is a loss of possesion , to the two rod area from the three rod, and you essentially get a new clock. You can't do this in basketball because of backcourt violations.

There isn't a pro or master around who couldn't hold a ball say for a minute from his opponent using this tactic which is extremely boring to watch. It's like watching someone practice by himself.
This is what Tom Yore did to Rick Macias. He got the ball on the three rod, held it for 13 seconds, hit the forward wall and caught the ball again which reset his time, held it again for 12 seconds, then passed it back to his five, held it for 8 seconds, then passed it back to the goalie area, held it for another 14 seconds........you see my point. Who the hell wants to watch that crap. Because Tom knew all he had to do was be ahead in a timed match to win, he then went into his stall tactics to ensure he would be ahead at the end because there was just over two minutes left in the match and he was ahead at the time. This was smart on Tom's part and well within the rules but extremely boring and not the intention of timed play.

Remember Dean Smith and North Carolina....four corners.....final scores would be 15 to 7. It was absolute genius, but who wants to watch that. It's why the shot clock made it's way into college ball.

So please Killa, don't become the Phil on this board. Mis-info breeds ignorance. And thanks for your retraction.

[foozkillah]

No Problema Ice,

Glad to have you reiterate what Tom Yore showed, and brilliantly, I might add.

Changing the fundamental nature of the game of foosball, played since the beginning with points-to, just as bowling has had 10 frames and 8-ball has had, well, the 8-ball...  will only lead to more problems, requirements for rule changes, etc..  besides making the game lose its natural attraction for those who like games requiring speed, dexterity, practice and a solid philosophy and concentration.  Keepaway is closer to coin-flips. And yes, please tell your genius buddy in town:

CHANGING TOUR FOOSBALL TO Timed Play is MORONIC

[thebodygroove]

Timed Play in Foosball isn't just moronic, it would make the game die within one year, I guess. Who brought this up at all? I've never heard or read about it before I saw Killah's post.

It works for Basketball because there you have the shot clock. A team that's ahead can't just hold the ball all the time because that would mean they lose it after 24 seconds.

It works for Soccer because the teams don't score that often, but when they do, it sometimes seems to happen out of nowhere. So if you're ahead 1 point and trying to keep the ball while there are 10 minutes left to play, there will still be many chances for the opposing team to steal the ball and score. Still, you see a lot of Soccer Matches in which one team just tries to keep its lead. Those matches are boring as hell to watch!

[Tyler Foos]

This topic reminds me of a Michael Jackson joke I heard about 5 years ago, that MJ is a perfect example of "keep fixing it until it's broken".

Tyler