Topic: What table should I buy?

[bbtuna]

we have had variations on this question maybe more times than any single other question on the board...in attempt to not have to repeat some basics, I am posting this, the mother of all table purchase threads...it includes the following

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – costs from $350-$1175
WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?

PART 2
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
The Brown Marble to The Grey Marble

PART 3
TORNADO COIN-OP HISTORY AND USED TABLE PRICING
T2000 Metal Wrap to the 2009 T3000

PART 4
KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP

PART 5
AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE

[bbtuna]

PART 1
WHAT TABLE SHOULD I BUY?
Bottom line answer is buy a Torando coin-op unless you have a specific background on a certain table.  In the US, there are only 3 table manufactures that are part of a serious discussion.  

First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.  
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small (but high quality) charity tournaments run in the southeast by Bonzini USA.  This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado but at the same time it has a rich history.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/

BUY A TORNADO COIN-OP – range in price from $300-$1175
No sturdier or more reliable table ever made in the US and probably the world.  Tournament players may argue about what table, past or present, has the “best” playing style or which table is “most complete” but no one will argue that the Tornado coin-op (T2000 and T3000) has as good or better build quality/durability as any table EVER made.

If you are thinking, “I will buy a Tornado but don’t want to spend the money for an expensive coin-op”….plain and simple, it is a waste of money to buy a non-coin.  Too long a discussion to go into here, you can look it up in previous postings.

WHERE DO I BUY A USED TORNADO COIN-OP?
CRAIG’S LIST:  For the Brown Marble – the Metal wrapped T2000, Craig’s list is the best place to find a used coin-op bar none…make your search on Craig’s list as far away as you are willing to drive.  You can sometimes find them on eBay but shipping adds $120-$175 to the sale price.

TORNADOFOOSBALL.COM:  The simplest and most reliable thing you can do if you can spend $1200 for the state-of-the-art table is you can buy a “tournament used” table (which is like brand new) for $1150-$1175 from Charles MacIntosh at http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/index.html
Or call him at 336-210-1194.  Highly recommended if you can afford it, especially right now with the T3000 as it looks like this may be the best table Tornado has made.

[bbtuna]

PART 2
Brown Marble - Brown Marble 1983 - 1997 - stopped using the metal feet about 1988 but continued to sell them as parts until 1996  $350-$450
oldest versions have the large metal feet and are considered the most (some debate now with the newest complete change T3000) solid consistent of all the tables
Most common have the current smaller plastic foot - I am not aware of any other substantial difference between this and the large foot except the feet...this was my favorite table but the new T3000 is very close in playability but considering the age and time "in the field" the Brwn Mrbl is still the best table Tornado has made but if the T3000 stands the test of time, it will be a toss up on which is best and the decision will be which play style you prefer
so, if you are looking for an inexpensive used table, this is your best bet...wide swing in quality because of how long they have been out there so this requires patients and careful shopping

Blonde – 1997 - 2001 This was the first color change at Valley ... it matched their ZD-7 pool table - $400-$550
consistent all the same, plays much different than the Brown Marble and has become my least favorite of all the tables

Cherry or Mahogany 2001 - 2003 Again this was changed to match the ZD-8 pool table - $450 - $650
Fastest of all the tables and because of this can be a challenge with ball control...

 - I own this table, ball control is difficult but the speed is fun...play is improved with heat-treated rods but it doesn't really fix the control issues...however, if you can play on this table, you can play on any table...everything is easier after playing on this which in my mind makes it a good practice table

GREY MARBLES 2003 - 2007 - $400-$750
Overall, even with the quirks and all the confusing talk below about manufacturing changes, this is a really nice table.

30th Anniversary Grey Marble - 2003 release, only out during 2003
You can tell if it is a 30th Ann model because it will say 'Product of Valley' under the logo on the table surface.
This table really starts a wild string of table changes which are hard to document and follow but let me take a stab at it.

The Merkel heat-treated rods were introduced at this time...in my opinion the best table change I have seen on any table at any time - only rival now is the Warrior ball...the rods were very smooth, were almost unbendable, and required far less lube to keep them at their best

Issue 1:  First tables released did not all have Merkel rods, there was a mix...some tables had none, some had some, some had all...this run of tables was fairly short so I don't think there were enough made at the end to be sure when ALL Merkel rods were available
Playing surface was a little different and many liked this table because it created extra control due to the surface change...

Issue 2:   Before this run was done, the man changes began and spilled over to the beginning of the Grey Marble runs...there was an attempt to make a more durable cheaper man using Nylon (Lets call this Nylon 1) (pretty darn ironic since the Tornado man was already super durable)...Nylon set up differently in the molds so it created seam issues on the side of the man which impacted tic tacking and some had dips in the front and/or back of the foot - This first Nylon man was had a dull finish and is easy to pick out on a table,
They didn't give up on Nylon right away and so began Nylon 2 where they tried a different chemistry mix...still very inconsistent mold issues...this man is easy to pick out because it is very shinny ...
Both Nylon men were short-lived but still on the 30th and early Grey Marble to follow, there ended up being tables with some or all of the original man, Nylon 1, and/or Nylon 2 men

Grey Marble - 2004 to end of 2006 beginning 2007
Different playing surface than the 30th
Earliest versions had mix of men but were consistent with Merkel rods but less than a year in they had gone back to the original man and all Merkel rods...this was the best of the Grey Marbles...good playing solid table

Handles – went from shape which was well known and long running to wood with deeper dip, then to plastic with less dip, which was soundly rejected and short-lived, back to the original wood less dip

Rod - Part way through the life of this version Tornado dropped Merkel because they thought the rod was too expensive and went with an imported heat-treated rod...still better than the original rod but nothing near as good as the Merkel rods (Merkel is the last name of the person making them...made here in the US just for this application...Warrior is considering this in coming competition models)

Merkel rod side thought:    How good is this rod?  Played on a Brown Marble bar table which saw much non-fooser abuse...every bar table with non-merkel rods is going to have a bent 2 rod, just a matter of time and eventually the 3 rod as well...the owner of this table, without knowing it, replaced the 2 rods with Merkel and we played on that table for OVER 2 YEARS without the 2 rods ever bending...need I say more?

[bbtuna]

PART 3
T2000 (Metal Wrap) "Fridge" 2007 to Worlds 2008 - $700-$850 - assuming surface is NOT warpped and has never been warped

Not Tornado name but ... this was the first metal wrap table and it had the small USTSA / VIFA / ITSF logo's on the end.  Not widely known but Tornado called this table the T-3000 Tour Edition but for the everyday player it was still a T2000 and the T3000 Full Meal Deal didn't come out until 2009

Okay, this was a good table outside of not having Merkel rods but instead the imported heat-treated rods...no surface, man, or handle changes during the run BUT

Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it ranks with the worst foosball experiences I can remember...EVER!  there is no excuse and no fixing it...

The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall.  Note:  Tornado acknowledges that the warping is real and their problem.  Tornado send a new surface but you have to replace the surface yourself and this is not easy for most people.  Best not to get one to begin with.

The other tragedy is the change on the latest models, start of 2008 I believe, of the score markers to the new plastic CRAP CRAP CRAP...it may be hard to tell but I don't like these - I understand the logic and why they did it, but it is a terrible design.

Now, with that said, I have a friend (BigBrewGuy on this forum) who has a first run Fridge table with the original score markers and a solid flat playing surface and it is a very nice table and plays really well…he got lucky

It was during this time that Tornado started trying to make some positive changes...they say the warped top issue is fixed...it appears now as of this date, 08/04/09, that the issue is resolved on new table production and that all T3000 (true T3000's) have the issue fixed...any metal wrapped table before the release of the T3000 is at least suspect.  Not all are bad, you just need to make sure yours is not if you buy the metal wrapped T2000.

Okay, this is tricky, because there have been a number of changes which took place toward the end of this run moving into the "full meal deal T3000" (I will explain what I mean by this shortly)
Without comment on the motivation or process (and there is a ton), the following are the changes that were decided on

LATE MODEL 2008 Fridge table changes

•  Bearings:  Inside face of bearings made thinner…because the ball could pass behind a man even when the man was flush on the wall…most notable if you did a stick wall pass perfect - not only could you go through the defense even if the man was flat on the wall but it could also go behind your 3 bar when trying to catch it…this change has fixed that issue completely - from good change so far - I have played on the new bearings at Nationals and on a players upgraded Grey Marble and the bearing is as advertized but it seems to me to improve the rod movement as well which if true is an unplanned result but still good.

•  Man:   the foot of the man was changed, not enough in my opinion (more on this another time)…they were trying to address two things…ball control and hitting a consistent angle which would open the game up with banks and accurate angle shots like should be used on pushkick and pullkcick shots (not limited to this, just any time a consistent angle is needed) - two changes were done to try and make these things happen

Man change 1 - On the face of the "new" man the cross-hatch goes further up to about ¾ of the face of the man instead of stopping at about ½ way

Man change 2 - this plaid pattern did not go all the way to the edge of the man before the man change (like it does on the Warrior man), instead there was, and is, an “edge” something between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch…very thin but impacting how the ball is struck for angles and control in a pin...this edge was not removed with the new man change but there was an edge change

Man Edge Change - There has been an edge change…in attempt to fix the angle striking issues, that edge has been slightly beveled…so instead of being a right angle with the side of the man, this same line/strip is now on an angle…say from 90 degrees to 45 degrees…I don’t actually think this is a full 45 egrees but rather something in between 90 and 45 degrees, Ed Geer could probably say what they settled on

although in my opinion, they did not make the best decision when changing the mold and should have gone cross-hatch all the way to the edge and taken the curve away and made the front edge a straight edge, the overall change is still positive

• Side-strips, Handles, and Balls - a decision to change these was made at this time too but the changes were not implemented until the T3000 "full meal deal".

Platinum Tour Edition T3000 2009 - current

Platinum Tour 2008 First used fully dressed out at the 2008 World Championships. It was not until the 2009 Hall of Fame tournament that this table had all the upgrades.

What do I mean by “full meal deal T3000”?  Well, there are some late model T2000 metal wrap tables (that have the new CRAPPY plastic score markers) and that seem to have been sold as T3000 tables.  Some (but not all) of these tables have the Big Tornado and ITSF stickers…see video below on set up of the table Zeke won at Worlds which he calls a T3000 but which is not a Full Meal Deal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFqO5Ng-7s

My local bar was sold this same table (with small stickers) being told it was a T3000…this is the table with the warped surface…This new bar table and the Zeke’s table are NOT what I consider a real T3000 but as pointed out by Dave and Torando, technically this is a T3000… Tornado may indeed have tried to sell these tables as T3000's, name or not, they are NOT the “full meal deal” T3000 and really are late run T2000 tables

I think Zeke’s does not have a warped surface and BigBrewGuy has same table with little stickers sans CRAPPY plastic markers...no other difference...T3000?  For sure they are NOT.

T3000 2009 - current - $1000-$1175“FULL MEAL DEAL T3000”This table should have all the changes listed above, men, bearings, CRAPPY score-markers, Big Tornado/ITSF stickers.
In addition to these changes the real T3000 should have a unwarped surface and the following.

Handle Change:   Now a softer “plastic” compound same shape as the wood handle above I refer to as “original” handle.  It looks something like the plastic handle that Tornado tried during the Grey Marble era but they are a different material, slightly softer, slightly but noticeably smaller, and they do not have the hard edges of the original plastic handle.  These factors make this a significant improvement.  Real nice handle, highly recommended for Tornado players.

Side-Strip:   changed to clear strip, slightly wider, which is essentially flat…this is to keep the ball from jumping up after hitting the strip to help facilitate banks and cut ball off the table…trade off is that the ball gets stuck on the wall from time to time - it works and ball is off the table less

Ball Change:   as of 6/29/09 Tornado has settled on a ball and it is slightly darker red, harder, and keeps its scruffy surface longer...it is referred to has the "5 hour tumbled" ball because it has been tumbled for 5 hours to get the surface it has...pretty good ball but I think it is too hard...Tornado isn't showing any signs of changing this ball again any time soon.  The 5 hour tumbled ball wears slow and consistant.

1 man goalie table: NOT SHIPPING in US as of 06/29/09 but…???

1 man Goalie?:  Announced as the official table to be used at ITSF International Multi-Table Championships in France…hold on to your hats, this one is going to be a wild ride while all the variables, motivations, and practical implementations of this take place.  Question about weather the change was “legal” for this tournament, if it would be a conversion kit or permanent table surface change (like Warrior uses), if the change will be permanent, or if the change will be forced in the US this year and/or sometime in the future.   For a complete  run down of the current public discussion on this (as of 12/26/08) see link below.  Read closely AmericanFoosball poster comments, long but very accurate and informed.

http://www.foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2062&sid=db2184ac5b24d5cdff4a43d03b85e02e

[bbtuna]

KEYS TO BUYING A USED COIN-OP
When buying a used table, everyone asks what they should look for…
Take or get lots of close up good digital pictures and I or someone on this site can help you determine what you are looking at…  If possible, best to visit table in person but either way, these are the things you are looking for.

1. TABLE SURFACE:  First and most important is, is the table surface level...no warping...it would be very weird if a BrMrb had warping but don't assume it is okay because it could warp if it sat in a bar long enough and had enough beer spilled on it - this would be a total deal killer
Tornado has only had one manufacturing issue with warped surfaces and that was the Metal wrapped F5/T2000…not all, but many of these tables had warped surfaces…do not buy one of these…long story but bottom line is it is too much hassle to fix and you can easily find a different coin-op without a warped playing surface.

2. GOAL EDGES:   Second and probably a deal breaker are the edges on the goals...if they have been hit enough times that they are starting to chip away, we call this a "blown out goal" then you probably want to pass on this one and wait for the next table (there will be more)...it can be fixed but it is very complicated and requires real skill

3.  INSIDE PLAYFIELD WALLS: the inside walls (white surface) should be firmly attached, no lifting, pockets, chipping, holes, etc….this like the goal edges and play surface are very hard for an average person to fix and if they are really damaged, should be a deal killer

4. RODS:  rods need to all be straight, no bends at all...the seller can tell if the rods are bent but if they aren’t sure, they can spin each and if it wobbles when it spins, its bent...bent rods are not a deal breaker because they aren't too hard to replace but they are $35 each plus shipping so you would want to figure that out into your offer

5.   MEN:  Cracked or broken men - same as the rods, not a deal breaker but a cost if some need to be replaced difference is cost is much lower impact at $5 each...you will want to get 2 or 3 of each color anyway unless the person has extra with the table

6.  COIN MECHANISM:   Make sure the coin mechanism is fully working even if you don’t need it for your use because if you ever want to re-sell it, you will want this working, it gives you a bigger audience of buyers.  Replacing all the parts in this is well over $100.  With that said, it will be very rare you find one that doesn’t work but you should know for sure before buying.  If there are problems, figure them out and what it will cost to fix and negotiate selling price or walk away from deal.

7.  FEET AND LEGS: Legs aren’t likely to be bad, haven’t seen that many times but the feet need to be in good shape and working (meaning they can thread up and down)...if not, they can be easily replaced, and they are inexpenisve…this should only impact your offer price

8. BALLS:   Are there any with the table and what shape...this is the least of the things but good to know because balls are $3 each...just an aside, a ton of people don't like them but if the ball is a genuine Tornado ball but is well used from a bar, I love them because they get very sticky and are good for control especially for a new player...they bounce a little more too but that doesn't bother me...you will not find universal agreement on this point just my opinion for what its worth…most old Tornado balls can be washed and made near like new easily if you want that

[bbtuna]

AFTER THE PURCHASE - basic TABLE MAINTENANCE

Equipment Needed for Basic Maintenance
•   Roll pins 30 cents each:   http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-020.html
•   Silicone 8 oz bottle $12:  http://tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
•   Pocket Size $2.50:  http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html
•   Bearing Wrench $5.50:   http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-049.html
•   Roll Pin Punch $5:  http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-021.html

If you need to replace any bearings, bumpers, or men, they can be found here
Tornado Parts:  http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/tornado.html

Spare Parts…what should you have on hand.
•   2 or 3 each color man, when you get down to 1, reorder
•   15-20 roll pins, when you get to 5, reorder
•   4 bumpers, when  you get down to 1, reorder
•   1 split bearing halves – these don’t go bad almost ever, so one should take care of you for a long time…reorder when you use it

What to do…Clean the table top to bottom...most people use a 50/50 mix of water and 409 cleaner ... I personally was taught many many years ago never to use anything on the playing surface or on the men so I just use hot water and elbow grease...it is the safe way and guarantees you don't leave any foreign substance on the playing surfaces

on the exterior cabinet, legs, and feet the 50/50 works real well

Using a Bearing Wrench, take all your bearings apart and clean any built up gunk from the bearing half's...the first time you do this on a used table, I recommend taking them all off and doing them all at the same time.  For ongoing maintenance, just pull take apart the split bearings once or twice a year or whenever you suspect build up…clean at that time one at a time with hot water or use the 50/50 mixture.
A Bearing Wrench usually comes with the table.  You can do it without a bearing wrench but it is harder and this is a basic must have table tool.
Bearing Wrench $5.50:  http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-049.html

The non-split side of the bearings, the “nut” may be gunky too, they are part of the “bearings”
the ones on the non handle side are easy to remove but if want the bearing nut on this side, you will need to remove handle - make sure you have extra roll pins before beginning this phase of clean up
Roll Pins 30 cents each:   http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-020.html

Roll Pin Punch $5 or $9: Did you get a roll pin "punch" with the table?  if not, again you NEED one of these...you can use other things like a counter sink to get by but this is made for this application and is worth the investment and is a standard table maintenance tool

here is the punch everyone uses standard with every table sold
Roll Pin Punch $5:   http://foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fts-110-021.html

however, recently foosball.com found a big boy version of this which I bought and it is much better, easier to use, I absolutely love it...to me, well worth the difference in price...you can't tell by the pictures but trust me when I say the standard is like a 6 year old and the big one is like a professional NFL linebacker...okay, that may be overstated a little but you get the idea...foosdirect is the only place I have ever seen it
Big Boy "Super Pin Driver" $8.95:  http://foosdirectstore.stores.yahoo.net/superpindriver.html

Cleaning the Bearings:  Simplest approach is to take them all off (bearing halves and the bearing nut), and soak them in very hot water and a liberal amount of dish soap…let these soak while you scrub the table surface and rods…then go back to the bearings when you are done and wash each one until they are totally clean of build up, rinse with hot of water (as hot as you can stand)…lay them out on a dry cloth to drain/dry
Make sure they are air or hand dried completely before putting them back on the table

After you have all your bearings cleaned and before you replace them, clean the rods really well to remove anything left on them like silicone, beer, Jack Daniels, or other "special" fluids people creatively use to "lube" the rods

Silicone:  Hopefully you were given some Silicone but if not you NEED it...I recommend buying a large supply bottle and the small applicator Pocket Size version.  The Pocket Size version it is by far the best way to apply silicone and you can use the big bottle to refill the travel size.  Silicone should go on rods only, don’t get it on anything else, it is very slick.  Apply thin line on each rod from the bumper to the edge of the inside bearing – do this on the near side and far side of the rod.
Turn the rod in circles and pull the rods back and forth gently and slowly at first to evenly distribute the lube on all sides and to not splatter any on the table surface.

8 oz bottle $12 http: //tornadofoosb.powweb.com/store/page6.html
Pocket Size $2.50 http:  //foosdirect-store.stores.yahoo.net/fooslube.html

Ball Care:  If you have gotten Tornado balls with your used table or end up with older used Tornado balls, you can bring them back to near new by simply putting them is a sock and throwing them in your washer and wash with soap and hot water.  When they are done, throw them in the drier (still in the sock) and dry on hot fully.  There are many other methods but this is simple and works surprisingly well.

NOTE ABOUT ON-GOING MATINENANCE
once you have done the complete cleaning, you won't need to put more than an hour a two a year into maintenance to keep your table like new...if you play everyday, wipe the surface once a month or so, clean bearings one hear one there as needed, and lube the rods as needed.  Very simple and easy.  Every couple years you can do the deep cleaning with all bearings and so forth.  Along the way, you will need to change a man and a bumper even less often.  Thats it, it just doesn't get any easier.

[gitablok]

Wow....... an entire BBtuna thread.....slow day,lol.
Good info my man.

[Alan Cribbs]

First, a quick word on the other 2 manufactures.   
Bonzini is a French made table with limited distribution in the US, some small charity tournament run in the southeast by Bonzini USA.  This table is expensive, hard to find, has small distribution in the US, and plays VERY differently from the primary US table Tornado.
http://www.bonziniusa.com/

Just a few more interesting notes about a Bonzini foosball table.

Bonzini has been in business since 1929. Bonzini tables have been in the U.S. since 1965.

Bonzini U.S.A. is player owned and operated. Other than being the exclusive importer and distributor for Bonzini, we operate free from any manufaturer constraints. We actually distribute tables from our warehouse in Winston-Salem world-wide to areas without authorized Bonzini distributors.

Our small charity events have raised right at $140,000.00 since 2001.

The table is expensive. The cost of real wood versus MDF, the stainless steel, unbreakable men, fuel charges, U.S. Customs, warehousing.etc.. It retails for $2395.00, but registered Bonzini U.S.A. players receive an additional $200.00 discount. Also tournament tables are discounted further for players. ITSF upgrades are done free of charge for players also. Being player owned and operated, we do everything possible to make this purchase affordable.
If the Euro and USD were to ever equalize, we will be able to drop our prices. $1 USD = 1.41 Euro today.
The table then would retail for around $1,700.00.

If you purchased a Bonzini B-90 in 1998 from Bonzini U.S.A., your table has actually appreciated in value. And guess what, the cabinet design has not changed in over 60 years. So no repeated yearly purchases from the manufacturer when they decide to change designs or manufacturing processes.

The table does play very differently from Tornado or Warrior, but all the same shots are possible on a Bonzini.

Before asking "What table should I buy?" one may want to ask "What am I buying a foosball table for?".

The Bonzini table and style of play has a rich tradition in the Southeast and in small pockets throughout the U.S. like La Jolla, California, Utica, NY and Brockton, Mass.


Bonzini U.S.A. has absolutely no interest in trying to compete with any other table manufacturer in the U.S. for the current foosball player base. We strive to provide our customers the best product, backed by the best service and price possible. As for our dedicated touring foosball players, we continue to provide the best entertaining playing venues possible on the East Coast, and present the game of foosball in the most positive manner to the local audience.

The Bonzini table is a fun table to play and I believe the present and future Bonzini U.S.A. players out they are a great group to work with.


Just a few more tid bits of info.

But I also like to play my EuroSoccer, Garlando and 30th Anniverary Tornado table too.


AC\\

[thebodygroove]

This is very valuable information - thanks a lot!

[bbtuna]

Ice,

thanks, I have helped quite a few people with buying tables since starting on the board and repeat a lot of information and have been wanting to collect it up into one place...yea, it was a slow day yesterday
this is one of my ways to give back to the game...I like doing it and I think it has been helpful for a number of people half or more of which are casual players...

Alan,
thanks for the addition...no disrespect to Bonzini meant, but my decision is based on availbility for used market tables, cost, and distribution.  For those who already have time on Bonzini and love that style of play and cost isn't an issue and they don't want to play the main tour tournaments, then Bonzini is a great choice.  Or as a second table, that is why I used the word "primary"
I didn't even bring up Techball, Garlando, and Eurosport because they are even less available in the US and they don't even have the small charity tournaments you put on so well.
If I had the money and space, I would have one of everyone of them.
Bonzini is a fine product and is totally unique in its playing style and it has a long proud history.  You do a super fine job with it in the US and I wish you continued success.

[wildcard]

definitely deserves a sticky, excellent job!

[alaskan thunder]

Good thread BB, can we get a sticky to cut down on the usual noob threads?

[thebodygroove]

The only relevant information I couldn't find was about how to bypass the coin mechanism.

[wildcard]

The only relevant information I couldn't find was about how to bypass the coin mechanism.

The absolute best way is to open the table and remove the ramp, then place a golf ball on the inner rail where the hole is leading to the butterfly feed. The golf ball will keep the balls from making it to the coin mech, you just reach in and pluck them off the rail as needed.

[Tyler Foos]

Wildcard,

I read your 'pluck them' comment, and now I can't stop thinking about eating a big basket of hot wings...near a foos table, of course...LOL

HAGWE.........................Tyler