Topic: What table should I buy?

[jkhFoos]

Tyler,
Oh yea, Hot wings sounds good. You had also mentioned the food in Wilmington is good.  Got to get to Thunder in the Mountains some year, since Alan described the Ham Pockets-early. What table should I buy? Bonzini (just my 2 cents). Oh, & evidently the food around their tour stops is mighty tasty too.   John

[Daniel]

bump

[jinhopark]

bbtuna:

I had a few questions...  You mention that the Cherry/Mahagony tables were the fastest of all tables.  What exactly makes a table fast or slow?  Is it the playing surface, the balls used, the smoothness of the bearings, a combination of all these things and others...not sure what that meant.

Also you mentioned that the Grey Marbles made immediately after the 30th Anniversary Grey Marble had different playing surfaces...  Is the 30 Anniversary completely different than all the other playing surfaces?  Or were all the playing surfaces the same through the 30th Anniversary, and then after that they changed it?  Or are you saying that with each new edition they changed the playing surface...ie Brown Marble playing surface was different than the Blonde models, which are different than the Cherry, etc...etc...

[bbtuna]

well, the ball, rods, bearings, surface, men can all play a part in table speed...the bearings, balls, rods are all conistant (realitively speaking) even the men Brwn Mrbl up to the Grey Mrbl were the same

every so often, Tornado does something a little different in manufacturing the surface...below is a post from Ed Geer if I remember right...this doesn't really explain how the surfaces play different but it explains why surfaces change from time to time

to an average person, the changes mean nothing but to a serious player, they can really see the differences

the biggest differences have been in the Cherry...looks the same but it is for sure faster and there is no other explanation that can reason the change

the other is on the 30th Ann model...I think it is the darker green Ed mentions below...as time has gone on, I have heard more comments from every level player that they feel the 30th played better than any other...i have a friend with a 30th and his is probably my favorite Tornado of all time after he changed the men, handles, 5 hour tumbled ball, and new low profile bearings...it was great  before, but those changes make it the best I have played on...good balance between speed and control

note, more speed means less control...control is created through friction and friction is the bane of speed

weight plays a role too but friction is the most obvious

get yourself a number of different balls, with various textures (super hard cheap soccer style balls to a Bonzini cork ball), and play with them a few minutes on the same Tornado table and you will see what i mean...even the difference between the old pink Tor ball and the new 5 hour tumbled ball is big but then throw a Warrior ball on the table and have some fun...big big difference


ED GEER...
There are 2 manufactures of custom high pressure Laminate that I know Tornado has used in the past, they are:

1. Wilson-Art
2. Pionite

The original 1981 spec for the surface was that of Wilson-Art 40 sheen with a sandblast texture.  However over time and after Dynamo bought Tornado, they changed to Pionite on the first Dynamo built tables, later they changed back to Wilson-Artor maybe to Nevamar on the blonde table series.  Pionite has always been the cheapest of the three and there spec is not 40 sheen but more like 75 or 80 sheen.  Pionite doesn't have a sandblast texture either, it is called eggshell.  The Pionite Hpl is slick dark green even though the color of the laminate has nothing to do with how slick it is.

Today I beleave the Mexican tables are using something similar to Pionite. The coin-ops are still made in Fort Worth and I beleave the surface is made currently by Wilson-Art.  Wilson-Art is my preferred material.

[jinhopark]

Tuna:

Once again you are a wealth of foosball information...

This is going to sound crazy, but I am thinking about "building" a frankenstein Tornado table.

I am really not that into the T3000 Stainless look, nor do I like the "new and improved" scoring post design.  I do however LOVE the look of the older Cherry tables.

In theory if I were to put my 30th Anniversary playfield on a coin-op Cherry table, installed all Merkel rods, installed all the new style men, new thinner bearings and new thinner playfield side strips, used the new tornado 5 hr tumbled balls, etc...  Then it should play every bit as good as the new T3000 coin op, right?  Or am I way off in my logic?

[bbtuna]

i think that is good logic...changing the playfield is not easy, it would probably be the same work to just change the vineer on your existing 30th...that way you can go and find the exact vineer you want, it doesn't need to be Tornado...so if you want a specific cabinet look, you can get exactly what you want

Mark Murrell has changed the vineer on all his custom tables and he is THE expert in creating the perfect table...for many years now he has purchased old tables and stripping them down and making them the best playing table ever...Mark is an engineer and he has done everything to a table you can think of

you can get him on the other board he posts as mmurrell

[jinhopark]

Tuna:

Another question... finally got my handles off and I think I have a 30th Anniversary with all Merkel rods.  I was told that you can tell by a small drilled circle by the handle end, which is what I have on all my rods...I was told that the Chinese rods have a tiny "c" on the handle end.  The only reason why I say "I think" I have all Merkel rods is because I see the small drilled circle by the handle end, and I can confirm that my 2 man rods are both Merkel...but the other rods are distinctly different, in that they have a clearly smaller drilled out circle diameter.  Not sure what to make of it, and I can post pics to clarify.

Also, on the veneer laminate issue...  I was under the impression that it wasn't worth the effort or something?  I will definitely contact Mark Murrell though as you have picqued my interest.  Do you happen to know his email?  If you do not want to post it, then feel free to email me directly at:  jinhopark@yahoo.com


Thanks!

[bbtuna]

thought i posted this here but i guess i did it on the other board...i will keep this handy for future use

here is what Mark Murrell posted on how to determine Merkels

Mark Murrell
The rod on the right is a Merkel rod. Shown is the handle end of several rods. You can easily see the chamfer at the pin hole and the funny color of the heat treated metal. There is a dot on one side that is 3/4" from the pin hole. Other rods have dot 1/2" from hole or has no dot.



Don't want to remove the handle? Here's the other end. None of the rods looks anything like the Merkel here on the right and at the bottom.





Sorry, I have no shots of Chineese heat treated rods. They have a "C" or partial C stamp instead of the dot. They don't have anywhere near the quality and the open end shows it. So if your uncertain as to what you've got maybe this will help identify. Merkels came on some Gray marble tables but otherwise cost you $260 plus shipping so if your buying or selling a table don't forget to consider these in the price if they are there. You can't buy them new now and may never be able to.

note, if you want to see larger versions of these pictures you can go to my Flikr account

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24345876@N05/

[Rob Woodley]

The merkel rods have a ground finish on both ends of the rod,the other ones look like they have been cut off with a saw.If you get Mark Murrells email address could you forward it on to me at robdarla@hotmail.com I want to find out if he will make me some teflon bearings for my table thanks Rob

[bbtuna]

mmurrell@cox.net

[jinhopark]

bbtuna:

Here is an update that I have found in my own personal experience...my sample size is small so please take what I am saying with a grain of salt.

Currently in my stable I have:

approximately 15 year old HM2000
approximately 7-9 year old cherry/mahogony coin-op
7 year old 30th anniversary grey marble coin-op

After > 3 months of playing on my grey marble coin-op and >1 month of playing on my cherry/mahogony coin-op I find that my grey marble is noticeably faster.  I've asked others who come over and they make the same comment.  I'm sure there are a lot of variabilities in tables, not only from model year to model year, but I'm sure from sample to sample even on the same batch...  It's interesting/fun to play on both tables.

I am going to sell my HM2000, since now I have a coin-op I can't go back to a home model...and I was even going to sell one of my coin-ops, but now I am thinking of changing one of those to a fun black light neon table or something for the kids to play on.

I don't know how I am going to talk my wife into keeping 2 coin-ops in the basement...might be in the dog-house a while after that conversation.  Wish me luck.

[bbtuna]

at least some, if not all, 30th had a different surface on it and I remember the first tourny i went to that had one 30th, and a bunch of non, pro masters complaining about the 30th being slick which is the same thing as saying fast

however, i have a friend with a 30th and i played on his table a good bit before it was converted with new men, handles, and bearings and it was never faster than my Cherry but i have played on a slow Cherry before, a beat coin op at a bar

good luck keeping both tables, tell us what its like living outside with your dogs 

[lenexa]

 In my opinion most Tornado tables are ok. There are better tables.  bbtuna must own alot of stock in the company the way he talks them up.

[bbtuna]

i will excuse you because you are a first time poster, you didn't read the beginning of the thread very closley, and you are obviously not a US tournament player...i am no ones puppet and my comments are unbiased and focused on foosball in the US...if you want to ignore the advice, then buy anything you want for sure

if you have some great ideas about tables for people then start your own thread and detail your findings and you can inform all of us with your great table knowledge

if you don't need help buying a table because you know so much and you are a satisfied casual player it doesn't matter what table you have chosen...

just guessing, but you probably think Boze is high end audio don't you...

 

[lenexa]

 You seem to be really biased on the Tornando table brand when the quality is not all it's cracked up to be. Thats all. I wonder if you are a US tournament player or just somebody that just talks.