Topic: What table should I buy?

[bbtuna]

im guessing you are a flamer and I will only respond this one additional time...the fact that you don't know makes it clear you don't know...i certainly talk plenty but i also know a few things and if you are not a flamer, you might want to learn a little something before floating by on your little dingy firing warning shots with your bb gun at this nuclear aircraft carrier

[lenexa]

 It's JUST a game not a way of life. I have my opinion and you have yours. I don't think you like criticism on your opinion. Nothing personal. As for the aircraft carrier analogy, a lot of them have been hit and sunk. You sure are sensitive.

[jinhopark]

Tuna, as you know there are plenty of people here (myself included) that truly value your opinion.

I appreciate the time you take to reply back to everyone's posts in a professional manner, and I'm not sure why people take the time and effort to push people's buttons...but please do not let those nay sayers speak for the majority here.

If you truly had stock in Tornado I doubt you would tell "would be buyers" to troll the used market and wait for a coin-op that would last a lifetime...you would more than likely push them to a new low end model.  You also inform buyers to make informed decisions, which for good (for the buyer) or bad (for the seller) normally drives down the cost in the used market.

[lenexa]

 jinohpark, my criticism of a particular member is for a reason. A very good reason. I have no doubt he knows how to play. Tournament play is questionable. I have been playing since the 70's when I started out on a old Micro Champion table. That was all there was around here at the time. Just don't forget that there are some people who are not as they appear to be. It is easy to take info off web sites and put it out there as there own.

[snake eyes]

Lenexa- I can assure you that BBTuna does not just blow smoke on his posts, I have met and played in the same State and Local Tournaments as he has. And your wrong it IS a WAY OF LIFE. Before you go bagging on Tornado why don't you give us a little input on your "choice" table? And I think you are mispronouncing the name of your above mentioned table, It's a Mirco not Micro. Your posting in a very prominent Tornado table group here so don't expect to intro with 4 posts and get any respect.

[foosdragon]

 :)Well said Snake. I had almost forgotten about the Mirco tables. Man, those were the days...playing on a different table in every bar, pre TS days. Have you ever stopped and counted the number of different tables you've played on ? Remember the old Garlando with the metal goal ? How annoying was that sound ? Just sayin'...

[bbtuna]

no aircraft carriers have been sunk by a bb gun

thanks for the support guys...

i am so neutral i scare myself, i have over my time posting on this and the other main foosball board, tried to always remain straight forward and honest and not influenced by a specific table or sub-culture...like a good reporter or reviewer...i have never received any benefit from any table manufacturer or organization

i started playing around 1973 or 1974, my serious early life was on TS although like many have through the years played on tons of tables...I laid off 1981ish to 2004ish so i didn't see the rise of Tornado, the fall of Dynamo...but since being back, about 5 years, i have had the opportunity to play on a number of the second tier type tables that are sold to the unsuspecting casual player

this website has for whatever reason, attracted casual players looking for a table and often come on here asking if they should spend $400-$800 on junk talbes - I spend the first couple years responding and repeating many things and finally just pulled it all together there

even still, i know i have personally helped several dozen people find tables from posts on this site...in addition i have probably helped another 8-10 people who never post on here but instead just email me directly...I have taken a ton of personal time with emails, posts, and phone calls and have never received, asked for, expected, or wanted any compensation of any kind

the information in this thread, is generic and mostly varifiable fact not just opinion...when it is opinion I am usually pretty clear on that...when i work with people I try and find out their interest level, their use, background in foos, and how they will use the table and so forth but in the end, most people are ready to spend $400-$600

if they are a casual player, I say without apology, there is not a better table they can find for that kind of money (in the US) and if you know of some, please do share...the added benefit is if they decide to dabble in local tournament play or have kids that might have interest some day, all the table time they log on the Tornado will benefit them greatly...if not, no loss because they don't know anything, or care, about other table playing styles but they will have purchased a table that will play true for as long as they own it ...and as i say, it will literally last your life time

now, i know of some tables that will last as long, like some Bonzini and Garlando for example, but they are not nearly as available as Tornado and they won't help with a US tournament transition - in addition, both of these are nearly impossible to get for $400-$500 - I have Never seen one under 15 years old, coin op or like, sell for that kind of money and this is after tracking all table sales on eBay for nearly 5 years..the last  (1 1/2-2 years i stopped searching through everything and only hunt for Tornado coin ops so if things have changed, I could be wrong)

even with all that, I don't support lower Tornado model purchases because the build and play quality to value ratio is not good enough

last i have played on Harvard, Carrom, Shelti, and a number of others this second time around and everytime i walk into a retail store, Sears, Thompsons, Wallymart etc, I see what they have and its all junk and some are asking the same thing you can get a good used Tornado coin op

i will close with this "It is easy to take info off web sites and put it out there as there own."  this is so true and if you did a little research before firing away here you would find I don't fall into that category...it is also true that "It is easy to come unto a forum you have never posted on and talk about things you know nothing about"  

if you are 70's returning player who just doesn't really get the change in foosball, I get it, I have seen it many times...if that is the case, take a step back and learn before you speak...lots of us on this site are returning players and might be able to help you with the transition as we have each other along the way

if you are a real life flamer, just STFU and get off our site, we don't need your kind - and i mean that in a very professional value-based sort of way

[wildcard]

Well said Charles. Thanks for all the help you give.

[sirflair]

Charles your immense amount of knowledge concerning this game is impresive! Alan although I don't know you personaly I have the utmost respect for the way you promote and represent bonzini. I believe all 3 of us sincerly care about the game of foosball and want to see it flourish. My view happens to be similar to that of Henry Ford relating to the automobile. If it is made affordable and advertised effectively, you can get one in a large percentage of american homes. I think both of you would also agree with me that should I be succesful, there will be a percentage of those players who will prefer the Bonzini style of play along with other tables. Therefor my stratigy can do nothing but increase the demand for Bonzini tables and like I said other Tables, also anyone who has played on a Warrior will also tell you it is much more friendly to a beginer or lower skilled player.  But forget about all that stuff, let me introduce you to 4 undeniable reasons why any young red blooded young man should start out playing Warrior!

http://www.warriortablesoccer.com/company/about.php

Argue with those 4 reasons Charles!

[Old Meister]

Yup, I see it coming, a tournament where Warrior, Tornado and Bonzini  all must be played in order to see who is the champion. And Bbtuna, an amazing display of restraint, lol. We boomers truly have a few things to learn upon returning to the game. It's funny how we think we know it all and then have to go through the humbling process in order to get back to reality. I don't remember you being so easy on me when you countered my naive outbursts, lol. I'll never forget the American Idol comparison, I remember it with a smile though, you were absolutely right. Thankfully the Big Guy gave me the gift of delayed introspection,,,

[bbtuna]

if every table comes, no pun intended, with those four reasons then you could probably charge a little more and still break all table sales records whatever they may be...if you get an international version then Katy bar the door and since you are a visionary, i think a package for women would grow that side of the game as well

i see 40 to 50 million tables a year world wide

[Alan Cribbs]

"Charles your immense amount of knowledge concerning this game is impresive! Alan although I don't know you personaly I have the utmost respect for the way you promote and represent bonzini. I believe all 3 of us sincerly care about the game of foosball and want to see it flourish. My view happens to be similar to that of Henry Ford relating to the automobile. If it is made affordable and advertised effectively, you can get one in a large percentage of american homes. I think both of you would also agree with me that should I be succesful, there will be a percentage of those players who will prefer the Bonzini style of play along with other tables. Therefor my stratigy can do nothing but increase the demand for Bonzini tables and like I said other Tables, also anyone who has played on a Warrior will also tell you it is much more friendly to a beginer or lower skilled player.  But forget about all that stuff, let me introduce you to 4 undeniable reasons why any young red blooded young man should start out playing Warrior!"




Brendan,

The Bonzini table is an interesting product. For a game that has never had an organized player base, organized distribution company, or manufacturer support in the U.S. many wonder how and why it has survived. It has been an embedded style of play here on the east coast for over 40 years now. It's unique playing style is the "attractor" and hopefully the culture of the player base we are trying to develop will increase it's longevity. It was dying a slow death in the mid -1990's. As far as "high-end" tables go, the Bonzini table has passed the test of time. We definately have strong brand loyalty. It' been a long 11 years restructuring the Bonzini movement but I really proud of the players that have embraced the philosophy and have made our events grow.

As for the Warrior table, the players that cross over to my Bonzini events here in the Mid-Atlantic states have nothing but good things to say about the Warrior tables playability. I have not been able to attend one of your events to test one out, but hopefully this summer when the Bonzini tour slows down I can venture out to play a little. The fact that you shot for a table design that affords all styles of play was a great step. While I'm stuck in a niche market, I do see that the Warrior table has the potential to either gain and dominate the player scene, but I see challenges for Warrior in the Game Vending world when you eventually produce a coin-op version. I do encourage you to hit the Trade Shows asap for game vendors to gather some intel and identify the good ole boy structure that exist.

I recently did a presentation for a company looking to use "foosball" in some marketing and promotional programs. I had to really stress that "foosball and foosball players" are merely the bait to attract an audience. The fact that their product is associated with the foosball event should merit some interest from their products consumer. I would love to see the day when a foosball tournament event is held in a mall's center square for all to see. Think about the potential player growth when you have a mall crowd passing through and around watchnig the action.  

Anyway, we're a small company and we'll stay the course. Our product is strong and our players/advocates/clients are satisfied with our service and support. It's a grind at times but it has its rewards at the end of the day.

Catch you later,


AC


ps, If I was young and single again, I would agree those are 4 good reasons to play Warrior.

Also, Henry Ford helped create the "weekend". After making the Modle T afforadable for all, he even gave his employess a day off to enjoy his product.
So maybe by playing Warrior we can create a 4-day work week.

[lenexa]

 If the new Tornado tables manufactured they way they are were cars or trucks they would be on the government recall list. I think they call them "lemons".

[snake eyes]

Really lenexa and whats your idea of a "quality" foosball table? Are you on the Halex or Sportscraft national tour or? Please share you thoughts.

[Craig]

I am making some tables and want to get the surface right. You mention Wilson-Art laminate with a certain finish as being used. Would you say that finish is the most important for playability? Is the current T3000 finish good or could it be improved (implying that T3000 is the standard)?

I really appreciate the info in this sticky. Thanks,
Craig