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Lightning Stick Passes...

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Lightning Stick Passes...
« on: July 13, 2009, 02:55:02 PM »
I've been working on my brush pass series lately, but I think I need to spend a few days trying to get a bit of stick pass series as a secondary option.

I'm watching some 2008 Tornado Worlds footage with Pappas and Gummy, but I'm wondering if anyone has some advice on getting a good stick.

Here are a few questions to start:
1. On the 5-row, should the ball be set in-line with the 5-bar men, or slightly in front of the rod?
2. What's a good grip to use on the 5-bar handle to create a fast smooth setup-and-pass motion?
3. When passing along the wall, does the 5-rod man strike/pass the ball when the ball is right against the wall or slightly off it?

Not sure if I can learn much in the next 2 days before VIFA Asia Open, but I'll try...

Thanks...

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 03:08:34 PM »
don't think you can make much if any progress in a couple days where your time would be better spent working on ball control and the things you have already been working on...with that said, here is a little sumpin sumpin for you to chew on


PASSING -best pass, practice, strategy
http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=1554.0

Offline alaskan thunder

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Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 06:22:58 PM »
I put the ball slightly in front of the 5-rod. Shorter distance = harder to race...

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 06:53:29 PM »
Good post Kayko! I've been working on the same thing. I, like 'AKthunder', think the short in front position is the hardest to race. To make an "elegant" lane and wall pass from there will give your opponent fits. Keeping time reactions in mind you can make it all work with positive control. Composure is the rule and this will unsettle your opponent,that is, composure on your part. Don't go for fake reads, go for what you want, don't second guess,,,

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 03:41:26 AM »
I'll give that a try.  Looks like Pappas starts with the ball slightly forward, while Gummerson has the ball right under the rod.

I've got a gimpy left hand, and getting the mechanics down for the 52-51 pass and 51 strike isn't natural yet.  Let's say for now that I start with the ball right under the rod.  If I pull from 52 to 51, I need to lift my 51 to pass it to the 3-rod.  So I'm trying to pull the ball slightly backwards with my 52 by lifting the 52 man, so that when the ball arrives at my 51, the 51 is already lifted.

Any thoughts on this method of passing?

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »
Lots of good 5's have a natural stick from a tic tac.  Once they learn to dribble, they just wait until the wall, or the inside stick is open.  The wall is squared off, of course, by the wall, duhhhh... but the inside stick is naturally a slight spray.  Smooth, though, and once the 3bar is trained to jump to the same spot, either a very slight spray hit with the 51 or 55 (end player) on a lane pass about 1.5 inches from the wall, or the same slight spray between the opponent's 54-53 (near side) or 53-52 (far side).

A great option or add-on is also letting the ball bounce off the wall from the tic tac and let it go "up" at an angle away from the wall (near or far doesn't matter).  Adding a basic wall click or brush and TA-DAHH!! ... you have a pretty complete series for either side.  Good enough for government work.

Much more advanced is the from-a-standstill (or very slight motion) ramrod straight hard hard stick on the lane or higher on the sweet spot between the opponent's 55-54, combined with the classic option of a standstill race to a hard square wallpass (Billy and lately, Ryan).  I'd recommend getting the natural slight spray stick passes first, however, because training your 3bar (31 or 32) to jump to a certain natural catching spot at execution is A TON EASIER.  Those advanced In-your-face sticks entail a lot more execution on the "pitch" or initial lateral to the passing figure, which approach the requirements of a killshot on the 3bar.  Nice, although being both a lefty and having learned my initial 5bar stick in Europe at the age of 15-17 with a front pin on the 5bar and catching WITH A FRONT PIN on the 3bar makes Tornado stick passes kind of a joke to me.

WORD OF WARNING: A couple of our local beginners (now rookies) drew both Spredey and Ryan over the past two years in tour draws.  They even played in other Pro-ams or limiteds with them afterwards.  They got to play against Billy and the other master passers in those events.  They both came back trying to do the most advanced square stick passes, hoping it would be their new secret weapon.  They figured out how it was done, but being scrubs, never really got the philosophy behind using these passes.  They also conveniently forgot that they had never developed any decent basic brushdown or click wallpasses (with the bounce ups) in the first place.  Although these supersticks looked good when they happened to pick the right time to do it, and worked well on other scrubs, and they happened to execute them, these WERE WITHOUT THE SOMETIMES INSANE AMOUNTS OF REPETITION that Spredey and Ryan have done.  Their percentages got even worse as their concentration and game pressure started to affect their 5bars.  Within a week, basic 50-50 5bar d and other D's from Amateurs and higher simply squelched them... They were pretty unhappy... thinking perhaps it was the tables at the DYP, because "everything worked" at their pristine picture perfect home tables.

Don't be a scrub and use the most basic scrub philosophy: NONE.   If you wish to be competitive, every action on that table has to have some kind of philosophy behind it, whether blocking, faking, shooting, passing or even waiting to shoot.  A lot of players fall into that idiot groove: feel their way into the game.  Works well in pickups and practice, gives up too many idiot points in any organized competition game.  So don't even fall into that when playing pickups for fun... presence of mind needs constant practice too..  Do that and you can fall deeply into the SUPER-PRO-BEGINNER-MASTER CATEGORY, which can last all your foos career...  I know several well into their 30s 40s and 50s, you know, the ones that get impatient with strategy or question sessions, and say, let's just foos!

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 01:27:18 AM »
I'm a scrub!  Alright, I admit to trying to practice the Pappas short, fast, hard sticks from standstill.  It's because I'm having getting the mechanics down when dribbling.  Standing still let me set my position consistently, just like a 3-rod offensive set-up, and leaves less to chance where a moving ball might introduce tons of other variables (ball position, speed, etc.) - although this might be just because my dribble isn't yet consistent - or because of the slight spray you mentioned.

The wall is squared off, of course, by the wall, duhhhh... but the inside stick is naturally a slight spray.  Smooth, though, and once the 3bar is trained to jump to the same spot, either a very slight spray hit with the 51 or 55 (end player) on a lane pass about 1.5 inches from the wall, or the same slight spray between the opponent's 54-53 (near side) or 53-52 (far side).

OK, so what I'm reading from this is that regardless of whether I'm doing a lane or wall stick pass, the ball should spray slightly, so my 31 should catch the ball slightly closer to me than where the 51 struck the ball for the pass.

a very slight spray hit with the 51 or 55 (end player) on a lane pass about 1.5 inches from the wall

Sorry, didn't quite catch you here.  Are you saying my lane pass should be ~1.5" from the wall?  I thought the best case scenario would be for my lane stick to be executed as far as possible from the wall while still out of reach by the opponents 54.

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 09:27:51 AM »
I think you are right in your last sentence. What I interpret that Killah is saying is the catch is made 1.5" or more dependant on the amount of spray. This simple either/or discipline has to be practiced a lot, a whole bunch! The only way to make your left not "gimpy" is by doing so. I call my left "spastic" lol, as it seems to want to invent a bunch more moves on it's own. But with enough practice it all smooths out and comes under control. Calm quick control, that is why I called it "elegant" .

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 12:31:21 PM »
Alright.  Well, I'll keep working at it.  Off to Malaysia in just over 12 hours. I think the few extra hours of practice on my brush and stick passes give me a few extra options.  They're not as consistent as I'd like, but at least there's a little more variety.  Hopefully I can at least play well in Newbies!

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 12:43:55 PM »
I'm a scrub!  Alright, I admit to trying to practice the Pappas short, fast, hard sticks from standstill.  It's because I'm having getting the mechanics down when dribbling.  Standing still let me set my position consistently, just like a 3-rod offensive set-up, and leaves less to chance where a moving ball might introduce tons of other variables (ball position, speed, etc.) - although this might be just because my dribble isn't yet consistent - or because of the slight spray you mentioned.

LOLOLOL!!  I knew it.  No prob, almost every aspiring rookie I've known who saw those lightning passes wanted to emulate them!  You can do it, but you can't omit the thousands and thousands of repetition (AND ON THE VENUE TABLE, NOT YOURS) passes you have to do.  Pros and PMs accept this, and so should you.

Quote from: kayko2000
OK, so what I'm reading from this is that regardless of whether I'm doing a lane or wall stick pass, the ball should spray slightly, so my 31 should catch the ball slightly closer to me than where the 51 struck the ball for the pass.

Nope.  I'm saying that a normal developed and reliable tic tac, where you can "idle" in neutral, like a swimmer treading water calmly in water, neither going faster or slower, will result in a slight spray (Newtonian physics) if you don't use technique to square it off or reverse the angle.  And for a natural stick, you shouldn't need to.  A good "natural" tic tac pass with your 3bar learning to catch the passed ball as it sprays slightly from either player is all you need at first.  This way you don't have to add anything extra, just wait till the defending 5bar freezes, slows, and leaves the front of one your tic tac players open.  They you just learn to move your 31 or 32 to the same spots to catch the ball.  Even when you're tired, straining or getting stressed in a tough, close, game, your natural lane should always be consistent.  AND SIMPLE.  The added option of letting the tic tac bounce off the wall and just tapping it through with your 51 or 55 player, without trying to guide it (staying natural) is also a great addition that adds the changed timing to a tic tac pass series.

Quote from: kayko2000
Sorry, didn't quite catch you here.  Are you saying my lane pass should be ~1.5" from the wall?  I thought the best case scenario would be for my lane stick to be executed as far as possible from the wall while still out of reach by the opponents 54.

The "best case scenario" you're talking about, is going through the sweet spot by the opponent's 54, which you can go through with a high stick or a brush or bounce up from off the wall and your own 51.  That is one of the options of any more advanced passing series, where you have to practice redirecting the ball thousands of times.   Now I clearly recall in my 50-50 5bar D that that particular "sweet spot" is one of the two basic areas you have to defend when facing any advanced passing, but I don't ever recall describing the offensive side of it.  You're extrapolating that you have to learn to pass and attack those two areas, which is prolly correct, but you don't even have a stable tic tac yet, OR a smooth brushdown wall pass, OR a reasonably quick click pass into a square wall pass or into a simple bounce up pass, so first things first.

The "natural" stick I'm talking about, which is a lot easier to start with and should get by most scrubs or beginner/rookies after you master a tic tac dribble, just waits until the defender pauses, slows, or stops blocking the front of either tic tac'ing player.  Then you just push or tap through the opening, and your 3bar better be at the other end.  That is your basic beginning stick passing series.  The advantage of just tapping through is there is no tell or doubletake for a defender to key on.  Smooooooooth is the word.

THE REAL BEST CASE SCENARIO IS: HAVING BOTH, OR EVEN MORE, PASSING SERIES.  As I mentioned earlier several times on this board, more options is more weapons.  Take a major league baseball pitcher: it's nice to have that unhittable split finger fastball that drops to Hades, or that screwball that curls like a nasty low tennis backhand slice, and a breaking ball or slider that just moves weird, screwing up the batter's timing.  But the dominating pitcher still better have that basic high-heat top-shelf natural fastball to just blow by a slow or confused batter.  And even when the mechanics aren't working on the more advanced pitches, the basic ones should still work, especially when you really need to hit that strike zone.

Practicing lightning stick passes before you master your basic passes is also like going into a heavyweight championship match with only a roundhouse knockout punch.  No dangerous well-executed jabs, or a 1-2, or driving hooks or uppercuts to the chin or to blast the body.  Need a lot of luck to go far with that.

Good luck in Kuala Lumpur!  May you hack with a smack and demolish with a flourish, Kev!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:56:04 PM by foozkillah »

Re: Lightning Stick Passes...
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 02:30:41 PM »
Oh, but just wait until I catch my opponent's chin with that one roundhouse punch!!

Alright, I better get some sleep. It's late over here.

I'll post my results if I'm not too embarrassed by them.  Otherwise I'll just pretend I never went, and continue asking questions.  Heh.

Cheers.